What is the Conservative legacy?

[Wombat3]

Jasey_ said:

The first Conservative government to hand over a completely fked country to a Labour government.

Going to be an interesting few years for sure.

Indeed it will, though very little room for manoeuvre (as was true in 2010, it was an absolute stshow)

[Dingu]

Wombat3 said:

Meanwhile, those that simply want to harp on and lay everything at the Tory’s door are not really being very objective (or helping) and are likely to be just as disappointed by the state of things in 5-10 years time.

Edited by Wombat3 on Saturday 13th January 10:57

Neither are people who want to defend them absolutely. There are posters here who would defend them if they decided to Nuke every major population centre in the country. That is as unhelpful, or possibly even more so as it enables the st show, as blaming them for everything.

[Wombat3]

LF5335 said:

I always find it strange that people say “yes, these lot were rubbish, but the others might have been worse”. They also might have been better*. What’s absolutely certain is that there needs to be change and fairly urgently. There might not be a magic wand, but there is an option not to wave the st stick at everything too.

*let’s see how many reply just to this point with “but, but, but Corbyn”

Misses the point,.

Passengers either way.

However, what better options did we have available? None was the general consensus, which is why we elected who we did. Or are we at fault because we made the wrong choices at ghe ballot box?

90+% of our issues have their roots in events beyond our control and its happening again right now. tts disrupting shipping via Suez will have impacts in the global supply chain and all the usual effects will follow.

[Nomme de Plum]

Wombat3 said:

Misses the point,.

Passengers either way.

However, what better options did we have available? None was the general consensus, which is why we elected who we did. Or are we at fault because we made the wrong choices at ghe ballot box?

90+% of our issues have their roots in events beyond our control and its happening again right now. tts disrupting shipping via Suez will have impacts in the global supply chain and all the usual effects will follow.

The UK still has significant influence on the world stage. When the UK decided to leave the Eu it highlighted an opportunity to Russia to exploit a degree of disunity within Europe which had already shown weakness back in 2014 when they took Crimea.

Roll on to a few months ago and the UK has aligned itself too closely to the USA and Israel has taken a very justifiable initial response too far, the consequences for which were pretty obvious so now we have another problem.

Furthermore we could have had a much more robust power situation if the government had facilitated more Nuclear and accelerated renewable more effectively. Even their home insulation plans were a complete shambles and utter failure.

So yes the situation we are now in has to be largely at the door of our Government.

Edited by Nomme de Plum on Saturday 13th January 11:28

[Wombat3]

Dingu said:

Wombat3 said:

Meanwhile, those that simply want to harp on and lay everything at the Tory’s door are not really being very objective (or helping) and are likely to be just as disappointed by the state of things in 5-10 years

Neither are people who want to defend them absolutely. There are posters here who would defend them if they decided to Nuke every major population centre in the country. That is as unhelpful, or possibly even more so as it enables the st show, as blaming them for everything.

I don't recall anyone that does that really. There are however many hereabouts that seem to be incapable if differentiating between absolute support for the Tories & everything they do and criticism of the dearth of talent and ideas on the opposition benches.

One does not automatically equate to the other. Criticism of the opposition doesn't necessarily imply support for the horlicks of a government we have.

Perhaps rather it says that yes we need a change but 5 years in the hands of what Labour is offering is heading in the wrong direction and a waste of time that we will never get back.

[Wombat3]

Nomme de Plum said:

Wombat3 said:

Misses the point,.

Passengers either way.

However, what better options did we have available? None was the general consensus, which is why we elected who we did. Or are we at fault because we made the wrong choices at ghe ballot box?

90+% of our issues have their roots in events beyond our control and its happening again right now. tts disrupting shipping via Suez will have impacts in the global supply chain and all the usual effects will follow.

The UK still has significant influence on the world stage. When the UK decided to leave the Eu it highlighted an opportunity to Russia to exploit a degree of disunity within Europe which had already shown weakness back in 2014 when they took Crimea.

Roll on to a few months ago and the UK has aligned itself too closely to the USA and Israel has taken a very justifiable initial response too far, the consequences for which were pretty obvious so now we have another problem.

So yes the situation we are now in has to be largely at the door of our Government.

I'd describe most of that as "reaching", but opinions may vary.

[Tankrizzo]

Higher tax burden than ever.
More legislated and unworkable state intrusion where there shouldn't be (e.g. Public Order Act 2023) , and far less sensible and logical state intervention where there should be (e.g. dissolution of 90% of Sure Start centres).
Chronic underfunding of vital state areas - teaching, justice system, crime & policing.
Appalling implementation of Brexit and inability to heal a divided country as a result.
Economy fked, partly due to Covid but it was fked before that.
Motorists screwed over constantly.
Privately-owned utilities and transport crumbling and pricey while shareholders profit.
Total failure to build any resilience in energy production/consumption.
Cronyism rampant with no consequence until media picks it up (Mone, Boris, Covid parties).
Election of the most incompetent and shortest-serving Prime Minister in history.
A general failure to promote and train government ministers of suitable intelligence and experience - a notable cliff-edge drop since the days of Cameron.

As a Conservative government, they are ideologically adrift, and as a government of any hue, an abject failure. Essentially every area is fked and I can't think of anything which is materially now better than when the first true post-Blair Tory govt was elected in 2015.

I was a Tory voter of many years, but as things stand, in their current incarnation, I would rather sht in my hands and clap than vote for them.

Edited by Tankrizzo on Saturday 13th January 11:41

[Wombat3]

Tankrizzo said:

Higher tax burden than ever.
More legislated and unworkable state intrusion where there shouldn't be (e.g. Public Order Act 2023) , and far less sensible and logical state intervention where there should be (e.g. dissolution of 90% of Sure Start centres).
Chronic underfunding of vital state areas - teaching, justice system, crime & policing.
Appalling implementation of Brexit and inability to heal a divided country as a result.
Economy fked, partly due to Covid but it was fked before that.
Motorists screwed over constantly.
Privately-owned utilities and transport crumbling and pricey while shareholders profit.
Cronyism rampant with no consequence until media picks it up (Mone, Boris, Covid parties).
Election of the most incompetent and shortest-serving Prime Minister in history.

As a Conservative government, they are ideologically adrift, and as a government of any hue, an abject failure. Essentially every area is fked and I can't think of anything which is materially now better than when the first true post-Blair Tory govt was elected in 2015.

When you figure out how we can pay for all the public services we think we are entitled to you'll probably have the answer

[Dingu]

Wombat3 said:

Dingu said:

Wombat3 said:

Meanwhile, those that simply want to harp on and lay everything at the Tory’s door are not really being very objective (or helping) and are likely to be just as disappointed by the state of things in 5-10 years

Neither are people who want to defend them absolutely. There are posters here who would defend them if they decided to Nuke every major population centre in the country. That is as unhelpful, or possibly even more so as it enables the st show, as blaming them for everything.

I don't recall anyone that does that really. There are however many hereabouts that seem to be incapable if differentiating between absolute support for the Tories & everything they do and criticism of the dearth of talent and ideas on the opposition benches.

One does not automatically equate to the other. Criticism of the opposition doesn't necessarily imply support for the horlicks of a government we have.

Perhaps rather it says that yes we need a change but 5 years in the hands of what Labour is offering is heading in the wrong direction and a waste of time that we will never get back.

You aren’t paying attention then. Plenty of posters do that. Trying to deny it is nonsense. Maybe we can agree that unconditional support or entrenchment of any position is unhelpful?

[valiant]

Wombat3 said:

Perhaps rather it says that yes we need a change but 5 years in the hands of what Labour is offering is heading in the wrong direction and a waste of time that we will never get back.

Then what's the solution?

Continue to vote Tory in the hope they'll get better?

We are stuck with our voting system so your choice is limited.

The only third option really is to hope you have a decent independent but even they are very thin on the ground beyond a single issue.

[Nomme de Plum]

Wombat3 said:

I'd describe most of that as "reaching", but opinions may vary.

We seem to be seeing a fragmentation of societal norms not just in the UK but across the globe. Maybe we were overly optimistic in the 70s but I see a degree of insularity and blatant xenophobia creeping back.

We had for decades created very efficient supply chains across nations. We are now suffering and will continue to so do the unravelling of those links with ever increasing political friction globally. This adds to inefficiency and thereby coast and gradual fall of standard of living for many.

I am not hopeful for the next decade irrespective who runs the country. What I can say is that the last 13 years will not be seen as a success for the UK.

Just maybe if we end up with a hung parliament we may see some sort of coalition and maybe even PR introduced.

[Hants PHer]

Wombat3 said:

<edited for brevity>
In the last 13 years we have seen 4 significant economic storms/ events/ headwinds, issues far greater than anything we saw in the preceding decades.

1) the economic stshow and structural deficits left by the previous government
2) Brexit
3) Covid
4) The cost of Putins antics

A sensible reminder of the big challenges faced by Conservative governments since 2010. My take on them:

1. eliminating the structural deficit was vital and they Tories got pretty close to it in 2018 IIRC. The Tories inherited a huge problem from Labour.
2. Brexit was, in my opinion, a very poor decision by the British people. But that's democracy for you, and it led to three years of nonsense until 2019.
3. Ah, Covid. The big one, in my opinion. The Tories utterly mismanaged Covid. Huge sums of money wasted on stupid, stupid policies. Unforgiveable cronyism and crazy procurement polices. Their policies dealt damaging blows to healthcare, to education and to the economy. However, Scotland, Wales and NI were even worse and Labour wanted to double down on the stupidity.
4. Putin's war was the very last thing we needed, but there we are. Let's remember, though, that the decision to print money to pay for the Covid largesse was highly inflationary.

TLDR?: Tory governments since 2010 have suffered a number of gut punches. But their handling of Covid was the biggest mistake, and will cause problems for years to come, whoever is in charge.

[Wombat3]

Dingu said:

Wombat3 said:

Dingu said:

Wombat3 said:

Meanwhile, those that simply want to harp on and lay everything at the Tory’s door are not really being very objective (or helping) and are likely to be just as disappointed by the state of things in 5-10 years

Neither are people who want to defend them absolutely. There are posters here who would defend them if they decided to Nuke every major population centre in the country. That is as unhelpful, or possibly even more so as it enables the st show, as blaming them for everything.

I don't recall anyone that does that really. There are however many hereabouts that seem to be incapable if differentiating between absolute support for the Tories & everything they do and criticism of the dearth of talent and ideas on the opposition benches.

One does not automatically equate to the other. Criticism of the opposition doesn't necessarily imply support for the horlicks of a government we have.

Perhaps rather it says that yes we need a change but 5 years in the hands of what Labour is offering is heading in the wrong direction and a waste of time that we will never get back.

You aren’t paying attention then. Plenty of posters do that. Trying to deny it is nonsense. Maybe we can agree that unconditional support or entrenchment of any position is unhelpful?

You are right there are plenty about who try & punch holes in everything one side or the other does BUT that does not necessarily mean an absoluyte endorsement of everything their own "team " does.

There are plenty of things recent governments have done that I thnk were not very bright.

[frisbee]

Hants PHer said:

Wombat3 said:

<edited for brevity>
In the last 13 years we have seen 4 significant economic storms/ events/ headwinds, issues far greater than anything we saw in the preceding decades.

1) the economic stshow and structural deficits left by the previous government
2) Brexit
3) Covid
4) The cost of Putins antics

A sensible reminder of the big challenges faced by Conservative governments since 2010. My take on them:

1. eliminating the structural deficit was vital and they Tories got pretty close to it in 2018 IIRC. The Tories inherited a huge problem from Labour.
2. Brexit was, in my opinion, a very poor decision by the British people. But that's democracy for you, and it led to three years of nonsense until 2019.
3. Ah, Covid. The big one, in my opinion. The Tories utterly mismanaged Covid. Huge sums of money wasted on stupid, stupid policies. Unforgiveable cronyism and crazy procurement polices. Their policies dealt damaging blows to healthcare, to education and to the economy. However, Scotland, Wales and NI were even worse and Labour wanted to double down on the stupidity.
4. Putin's war was the very last thing we needed, but there we are. Let's remember, though, that the decision to print money to pay for the Covid largesse was highly inflationary.

TLDR?: Tory governments since 2010 have suffered a number of gut punches. But their handling of Covid was the biggest mistake, and will cause problems for years to come, whoever is in charge.

No, it's a feeble bunch of excuses for fundamental incompetence and an utter lack of respect for the people they are supposed to represent. They've been st at everything they've done for the last 13 years.

fk them, fk anyone who voted for them (including me) and especially fk anyone who does vote for them in the next election.

They can come back if/when they are the Conservative party again.

[Hants PHer]

frisbee said:

No, it's a feeble bunch of excuses for fundamental incompetence and an utter lack of respect for the people they are supposed to represent. They've been st at everything they've done for the last 13 years.

fk them, fk anyone who voted for them (including me) and especially fk anyone who does vote for them in the next election.

They can come back if/when they are the Conservative party again.

Haha, fair enough. I strongly disagree with you, but there we go. One thing though: how was delivering Brexit - you know, the democratic will of the people - an "utter lack of respect for the people..............."? Seems to me that Getting Brexit Done was exactly what the majority demanded. And the 2019 election result rather reinforced that, didn't it?

[anonymous-user]

And they are still currently leading the voting intention thread. That's how <insert adjective here> the voting population are - well on PH anyways.

[Wombat3]

valiant said:

Wombat3 said:

Perhaps rather it says that yes we need a change but 5 years in the hands of what Labour is offering is heading in the wrong direction and a waste of time that we will never get back.

Then what's the solution?

Continue to vote Tory in the hope they'll get better?

We are stuck with our voting system so your choice is limited.

The only third option really is to hope you have a decent independent but even they are very thin on the ground beyond a single issue.

It is indeed a choice of thin gruel .....or very thin gruel

If you take the view (as I do) that the economy trumps everything in terms of importance, because all services and spending flows from having one in good order, then the options come back to economic ideology.

I've never met or seen a socialist who could explain how they could pay for everything (anything really) except by taxing the rich. This despite all the evidence as to how high (and skewed) the tax burden already is and how little it would achieve anyway.

The last two Labour governments under Callahan/Healy and then Blair/Brown turned into massive economic (and social) experiments and both ended in tears. The current (Labour) lot are no different in their thinking when you scrape away the veneer IMO & therefore I would expect no different result. They will try & raise money from the obvious targets and then they'll be surprised when a) It doesn't raise nearly as much as they thought it would and b) it has secondary/ knock-on (and undesirable) effects elsewhere, it was ever thus.

As for the Tories, they are stuck with the fact that the electorate has no stomach for much of an economic fight or really tackling some of the enormous inefficiencies & waste that we have going on. The electorate wants the moon on a stick (for free) and the dilemma is that you cannot govern unless you get elected, so they do & say what they need to do to get elected & try & please everyone instead of actually trying to make the step change we need.

The last one to try was Truss & look where that ended (because it was so badly conceived and delivered).

Then they don't help themselves in 101 different other ways we all know about & they are saddled with more than their fair share of idiots as well.

So they fail.

End result, we are where we are & literally nobody is happy, not the right, not the left and not really anyone in the middle either.

The only way we get out of it is for somebody (or bodies) to emerge from the shadows that actually has some ability to lead, understands business, the economy AND the need for protecting those that need it (as opposed to just everyone that wants it) and who people will believe in and follow.

At the moment I can't see anyone.

Heading off to the left like a bunch of headless lemmings because "not Tory" is not a good answer for the next 5 years though IMO. Its a waste of 5 years because the very high liklihood is that things will be worse, not better at the end of it. (see previous labour governments for reference.)

[Sticks.]

Wombat3 said:

When you figure out how we can pay for all the public services we think we are entitled to you'll probably have the answer

Are these the public services we used to have and used to be able to pay for? The point is not that it can't be done but that it has been done but now isn't.
Imho this is the legacy of Cameron and Osborne having their foot on the economic brake for so long.

It's not just public services though. It seems everything is done to the lowest standard. Energy suppliers: this week I've had a text, email and two letters for a bill I paid online last Friday week. My other supplier, DD needs reducing, can only increase it online. Online chat maybe 'you're 345th in the queue'. Only option is to cancel it, so then I pay more.

Govt is supposed to be monitoring the standard of service (and billing) but effectively, doesn't.

And their only answer to 'fix' the economy is to build more houses. If LAs don't, they don't get their funding. Absolutely no extra infrastructure, schools, medical services, roads etc. Bus services cut at the same time, traffic increases massively. Net zero here we come.

And their only answer is 'we need more houses'. No, the question is not whether we need them, but how we go about it.

No joined up or strategic thinking at all, just like the COVID period.

Election year so we'll see them go for as many feel good things they can to make us feel like they're doing something. Starting with Post Offices.

Btw in Sainsbury's the other day. Woman in front gets 20 fags for £11.50. Expensive to discourage use. I bought 8 stamps for £10. Stamps are now dearer than fags. Bonkers.

Rant over

[isaldiri]

Hants PHer said:

TLDR?: Tory governments since 2010 have suffered a number of gut punches. But their handling of Covid was the biggest mistake, and will cause problems for years to come, whoever is in charge.

I have to disagree with that. The various specific issues with covid was a symptom of the breakdown of governance rather than a major cause of issues to come. Yes billions were wasted and there was a staggering amount of incompetence and cronyism but in the overall scheme of things, the major issues associated with covid (massive debts and decline in hospital treatments and associated issues showing now) were those no western country avoided or probably could have avoided. The worst mistakes of the tories were essentially the party becoming ungovernable with the discipline of the MPs breaking down such that it became impossible for any (reasonably sensible) prime minister to manage.

[lrdisco]

gt_12345 said:

lrdisco said:

How much potentially better would we have been if David Milliband had led Labour against Cameron.

No Brexit disaster.
No austerity.
No where near as much political tribalism.
The country would be in so much a better position than we find ourselves in.

Why was Brexit a disaster? As in, what would have been different?

Labour were not terrified of UKIP. Therefore no catastrophe of Brexit.
The conservatives have ruined the UK since 2010 due to their Euro septics. Their terror of UKIP and their ideological agenda to implement austerity when it has been proven beyond doubt that you do not cut yourself out of a slump.