Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll

[turbobloke]

djc206 said:

turbobloke said:

O/T looking at the US / UK figures, either national pride levels are higher in the USA generally, or there's more national self-loathing in the UK taking the numbers down

Americans tend to be more patriotic in the sense that they’re completely ignorant of the reality of their situation. I know a few Americans who would stand in front of a homeless encampment in a major city and declare the US the greatest country in the world and the American Dream achievable for anyone who works hard enough without a hint of irony.

It’s not self loathing here, it’s realism. We recognise when things aren’t great and have no problem calling it as it is. It’s not self denigration it’s just the truth.

2019. Not so bad after all, compared with 2021-2023 (so far).

There's been a hefty dose of national self-loathing here, across this and the previous century. Read about our decline (not brexit) up to 2000 and eventually get to this. There's reinforcement even in the diagnosis! Like your 'realism' comment, in a way.

https://www.theguardian.com/Columnists/Column/0,56...

In 2000 Catherine Bennett with The Guardian said:

Except, of course, in self-loathing. When Penguin gets round to publishing an Atlas of Self-flagellation, the British will undoubtedly come top: for frequency, longevity and, most of all, accuracy.

There's been more coverage along similar lines since then, though first-hand experience of communism can give real realism, apparently.
2022: is self-loathing the British disease?
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/is-self-loathi...

Back on-topic, the 2019 surveys arrived a year or two too soon to be able to shine much light on how the JD strike will unfold.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

It would seem that Rishi has said he will bring down inflation and cut hospital waiting times, you cant have your cake and eat it.

Still can't see anywhere near 35% and the clock is ticking for both sides.

[turbobloke]

s1962a said:

turbobloke said:

Dixy said:

It would seem that Rishi has said he will bring down inflation and cut hospital waiting times, you cant have your cake and eat it.

Still can't see anywhere near 35% and the clock is ticking for both sides.

Didn't he say something like his "15 year plan" will give us more doctors? thats solved that then

There's the Rishi targets on the one hand and the dilemma for doctors on the other. It's comforting to focus on Sunak but there's another dimension.

Reasonable warning, reasonably worded, from April: doctors risk losing public support if they demand too much
https://uk.news.yahoo.com/voices-junior-doctors-ri...

The number of Junior Doctors taking part in strikes is falling
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/19/junior...

[turbobloke]

Killboy said:

pghstochaj said:

You realise that the first article is just the opinion of one journalist back in April? Of course it is a risk for doctors (consultants "only" earning £100k wanting £125k is a difficult message) but I don't see how that article says anything beyond that, it's not a poll or survey or anything, just one person's opinion based on a different history.

Regarding the second post, a 10% reduction in people striking is not significant. When it drops by 50% you might have a point. Of course a 10% change could simply be related to higher staffing requirements for safety, not because the strikes are losing support with JDs. The fact that this article is printed without any attempt to investigate that is really disappointing. It's not journalism.

When you realise that a JD gets paid £1k more on graduation than a nurse, it is difficult to pretend there is no a problem.

Welcome to death by turbo links.

No evidence offered, just the usual personal angle shoot-the-messenger ad hom logical fallacy.

Opinion is being criticised, then a random biased opinion of 50% being significant. Could do better. To get to 50%, start somewhere lower? Say, 10%.

Both links show risk to JD position, that was clearly the point in suggesting moving beyond the comfort blanket of a Sunak focus.

Going for school playground responses while looking the other way towards Sunak is head-in-sand quality. More!

[turbobloke]

Scottish JDs rejected 14.5%, which on the face of it looks appropriate, and not overly generous given the balance between JDs and the wider context. I'd like to see JDs drop the 35% nonsense, get a 15% offer, and see what happens.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

86 said:

Suggest put a diary note in to review in Nov 23

New sign for outside A&E

It's been there for some time unfortunately, though beyond A&E.

The 2021 "Mirror Mirror" report from The Commonwealth Fund which rates healthcare systems across rich countries, downgraded the NHS from top spot (which it held for the previous two years) to fourth in global rankings, citing increased patient delays and lack of investment as the main reasons. Can't find 2022 but it's still not looking good.
https://lowdownnhs.info/topics/staffing/nhs-loses-...

Including more nations, the NHS is tenth at the link below (2022). Rated top for palliative care, the UK was ranked tenth overall due to long wait times which lead people (who can afford to do so) to opt for private medical insurance.
https://www.expatriatehealthcare.com/the-top-10-he...

Edited by turbobloke on Tuesday 27th June 09:40

[turbobloke]

pghstochaj said:

pavarotti1980 said:

irc said:

Nurses accept 5‰ Or rather fail to get enough support for further strikes.

https://www.nursingtimes.net/news/workforce/nurse-...

Only 84% of a 43% turnout voted in favour of strike action so effectively 36% of their members.

They already have the 5% being paid this month. RCN were being greedy (despite being part of a 14 strong collective of unions) and it has backfired

Language is a bit strange. The union works for its members, if the members do not support a strike, there is no strike. It isn't backfiring, it is the basic governance of a union.

Well yes, but they stuck their necks out with nothing gained but visibly sore necks. Collectively.

[turbobloke]

Fast Bug said:

Dixy said:

If you think this is about money you need to learn to read the room.

The link you posted is about erosion of pay being the cause of the strike. To the average person on the street, that's money...

That's how it looked to me.

Are some people saying it's not about pay erosion, but about politics in some form?

[turbobloke]

djc206 said:

Fast Bug said:

People had sympathy for nurses, and to an extent junior doctors. But I can't imagine people that had a choice of heating or eating over the winter, or those that have 2 or even 3 jobs to make ends meet will have much sympathy for someone earning an average of £126k pa. I think consultants need to learn to read the room before walking out on strike

Consultants don’t need the sympathy of those people, or any of us for that matter. Tbh when I read that figure I was surprised it wasn’t higher especially with that including extra hours etc. Seems like a bargain to me.

Agreed, given the skill and responsibility it's not that high by any means, however to many folks under the cost of living cosh it will surely appear to be an enormous salary.

[turbobloke]

djc206 said:

turbobloke said:

Agreed, given the skill and responsibility it's not that high by any means, however to many folks under the cost of living cosh it will surely appear to be an enormous salary.

No doubt but their opinion matters not a jot. They either want healthcare or they don’t.

Arrogance or comedy? Or both?

Interesting anywhichway.

[turbobloke]

sawman said:

Hugo Stiglitz said:

What is defensible about striking now then? Go on.

What is defensible about a government that drags down its skilled and motivated force into a burnt out husk?

Would that imply you take the consultant and/or junior doctor positions to be political?

[turbobloke]

djc206 said:

turbobloke said:

Arrogance or comedy? Or both?

Interesting anywhichway.

Neither. Just true. Public opinion is not necessary for strike action to be successful, see just about every rail strike ever for proof.

Doctors have something we all need and we have to pay them a fair wage in order to retain their labour. It’s a global market, we either pay a wage that keeps enough of them here or they bugger off in ever increasing numbers and we then don’t have enough to meet our ever increasing healthcare demands. Personally I’d be looking for a mutually agreeable settlement rather than burying my head in the sand like Barclay and the wider govt.

It was a curious choice of words - your post, which you chose to exclude above, said "they either want healthcare or they don’t" which is ciose enough to "either they pay up or you will be left to suffer" and that's either arrogance or comedy or something worse, akin to being held to ransom and close to stand-over thuggery.

[turbobloke]

Flying machine said:

IMO the UK gets very good value from its clinical and support staff...

[turbobloke]

Fast and Spurious said:

How does the pay of these poor bds compare with the same in France and Germany?

This quotes for 'specialists' in a chart for 2020, scroll down a bit.

https://www.euronews.com/next/2023/06/14/doctors-s...

[turbobloke]

djc206 said:

I chose to exclude it because multi quotes are annoying for mobile users.

[turbobloke]

valiant said:

Ruskie said:

Literal consultants posting and people will still say they know better. If you can’t see the damage this government has done to the NHS then you are beyond help. The PM whose own father was a GP, had the nerve to separate Doctors and GP’s in his latest speech. Talk about belittling a profession.

It doesn’t matter for many in here. They simply see a group of workers not happy with their lot and trying to do something about it rather than suck it up like a good employee.

See also teachers, paramedics, train staff, civil servants, etc, etc.

It's not about knowing more, it's about what represents a fair and reasonable settlement in the current context.

JDs (/ consultants) and taxpayers outside the NHS are both involved.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

Fast and Spurious said:

How does the pay of these poor bds compare with the same in France and Germany?

Whilst at med school one of my daughters friends sat all the USA exams as well, he started on 20 times what she did. His salarie now has 2 commas in it.

That's a not in the NHS choice situation.

Are there not consultant surgeons in Harley St with two commas?

[turbobloke]

pghstochaj said:

Sadly the internet means that everybody thinks they have a valid opinion.

You're sad about the nature of your own position on the internet?

[turbobloke]

Countdown said:

markh1973 said:

If someone became a JD in 2018 then at most their pay should be uplifted by the pay erosion amiunt since that date. If you aren't happy with the salary when you strat the job don't take it.

They're not happy, that's why so many of them are heading off to sunnier climes as soon as they're able to. That's why there are so many vacancies.

You can't really blame them I suppose; it's a standard clarion call on PH "If you don't like it then you should move". However it seems slightly stupid for taxpayers to spend £000,000's on training them only to lose so many so soon after qualification

It does, and from the other side it seems slightly lax not to have a fixed period of time say 3 or 4 years in which a med school grad gives their expertise to the NHS. According to FullFact it costs a med school aka taxpayers around £230,000 to get a medical student through their qualification. I appreciate the emerging JD will have debt - £50k to £90k is quoted. For medics, that debt could be written off if for example they stay in the NHS for a further 2 years.

Timescales are for illustration purposes...

[turbobloke]

sawman said:

272BHP said:

sawman said:

Surely it would be better to create an enviromnent where the docs want to stay and work.
Enforced labour in chaingangs isnt noted for the improvement of morale

What?

You ever seen a poor 50 yr old Doctor? The ones I know live in 2 Million pound houses and have 6 holidays a year

Was responding to turbo’s suggestion of enforced service for medics after graduation

No problem, views differ, though the chain gang analogy was ridiculous.

The suggestion arose from a consideration of both sides of the stethoscope i.e. JD and taxpayer, med school costs a lot. Did you regard the writing off idea for student debt equally distasteful as part of the plot?