Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?
Discussion
Vasco said:
To those suggesting higher birth rates, nobody seems to have highlighted that more women nowadays don't want children. They now have a wide range of other interests available, certainly in the usual child bearing age groups, and this (selfish ?) change over many years isn't going to go away. Perhaps a massive increase in child allowances would persuade some ditherering females but I reckon that the % of ladies wanting children may continue to steadily drop.
.
Because they've been told they need to be independent boss babes who don't need a man, as men are trash. There is going to be a lot more single cat ladies in the next 10/20 years who are going to realise they've been sold a lie..
bad company said:
That’s an over simplistic and inaccurate assessment. Of course the country needs immigration but it needs to be controlled, not predominantly uneducated young males arriving illegally.
I don’t think Reform as a party are saying any different. They are attracting some racist support though which is a shame.
Again, more lies. The shame, as usual, lies with the Reform voters who would rather reinforce their own prejudices than confront the truth.I don’t think Reform as a party are saying any different. They are attracting some racist support though which is a shame.
If every person who arrived on a "small boat" last year was "uneducated young males arriving illegally", that would make up a tiny proportion of our overall immigration.
The usual lies keep getting spouted to reinforce prejudice.
1. Illegal immigration is a tiny proportion of our immigration.
2. People arriving on "small boats" aren't "illegal", unless you can point to a law that I'm missing.
Please try and at least dally with the truth if you're going to try picking apart a critique of Reform voters as "inaccurate".
fido said:
President Merkin said:
Point is it's a con & it works on susceptible people.
Ditto Conservative policies - reduce immigration below 100,000 - fail, points scheme - fail ... student dependents alone were >100,000 last year.They have had 14 years to fix this.
In terms of 'controlling immigration', as now not only promised by UKIP 2, but also Cons and Lab, it is beyond a 'carrot on a stick' voting incentive. It is 'moon on a stick'.
Gecko1978 said:
The alternative to immigration is to incentivise sustainable family growth in the UK so each generation having 2.1 children (iirc the .1 accounts for childhood deaths). So you would need a tax system that supports working families upto 2.1 kids. Not sure how that would work in practice like say 1% cut in income tax for 1st child 1st cut for second etc of course that penalises those without kids etc but it would encourage nuclear families. Not sure it's a good thing but neither is immigration at a scale we can't manage
Sorry to say it's more complex than that. Average age in the UK is 40. That already past peak child bearing. To reverse the decline you would need the next generation to be more than 2.1. Also people are living longer so you need a birth rate that actually increases the population so as to maintain the working retired ratio.fido said:
President Merkin said:
Point is it's a con & it works on susceptible people.
Ditto Conservative policies - reduce immigration below 100,000 - fail, points scheme - fail ... student dependents alone were >100,000 last year.They have had 14 years to fix this.
https://socialistworker.co.uk/features/labours-gra...
Dave200 said:
bad company said:
That’s an over simplistic and inaccurate assessment. Of course the country needs immigration but it needs to be controlled, not predominantly uneducated young males arriving illegally.
I don’t think Reform as a party are saying any different. They are attracting some racist support though which is a shame.
Again, more lies. The shame, as usual, lies with the Reform voters who would rather reinforce their own prejudices than confront the truth.I don’t think Reform as a party are saying any different. They are attracting some racist support though which is a shame.
If every person who arrived on a "small boat" last year was "uneducated young males arriving illegally", that would make up a tiny proportion of our overall immigration.
The usual lies keep getting spouted to reinforce prejudice.
1. Illegal immigration is a tiny proportion of our immigration.
2. People arriving on "small boats" aren't "illegal", unless you can point to a law that I'm missing.
Please try and at least dally with the truth if you're going to try picking apart a critique of Reform voters as "inaccurate".
bad company said:
As you know full well I was referring to the immigrants arriving illegally by boats, not the legal ones.
We all know that we need some immigration.
Have a look at what you actually wrote?We all know that we need some immigration.
Edited by bad company on Wednesday 3rd July 09:51
Perhaps you should issue a correction, perhaps taking out the word "predominantly"
Seems the political focus on small boats has worked well on you. You are attributing the whole immigration issue to the the tiny minority issue, just as the rabble rousers have encouraged.
GTO-3R said:
Vasco said:
To those suggesting higher birth rates, nobody seems to have highlighted that more women nowadays don't want children. They now have a wide range of other interests available, certainly in the usual child bearing age groups, and this (selfish ?) change over many years isn't going to go away. Perhaps a massive increase in child allowances would persuade some ditherering females but I reckon that the % of ladies wanting children may continue to steadily drop.
.
Because they've been told they need to be independent boss babes who don't need a man, as men are trash. There is going to be a lot more single cat ladies in the next 10/20 years who are going to realise they've been sold a lie..
Firstly, absolutely no credible source has attributed our falling birthrate to the "independent boss babes who don't need a man, as men are trash" nonsense you've rolled out there.
Instead it's attributed to more sensible things like the increased cost of living, and the increased career opportunities for women.
Would you prefer we went back to an age where women were stuck under a professional glass ceiling, where their only viable option is to drop out of the workforce and procreate?
Actually, if you're the sort of Reform voter who spends their life telling everyone how much better the UK was "back in the day", that probably sounds quite attractive.
If we want to increase birthrate, we need to accept that we need an economy where women are incentivised to have both career and family. And guess what, that's going to require more low-cost labour to do things like staffing childcare options.
fido said:
If no-one could afford houses, Ferraris, hookers etc. then they would become very cheap. Basic economics.
Good point.The context here is that if you want to buy a house, you need two salaries, potentially in a place away from family support. This is a massive disincentive.
A critical mass of immigrants are used to a lower standard of living and are less concerned about where they live, who pays for it. Then, they can bring relatives - mother and so on - and can function, while the locals can't.
The perverse logic that "we need immigration as birth rate is low" is focusing on the symptom instead of the cause. It's a recipe for unmitigated disaster.
stuckmojo said:
fido said:
If no-one could afford houses, Ferraris, hookers etc. then they would become very cheap. Basic economics.
Good point.The context here is that if you want to buy a house, you need two salaries, potentially in a place away from family support. This is a massive disincentive.
A critical mass of immigrants are used to a lower standard of living and are less concerned about where they live, who pays for it. Then, they can bring relatives - mother and so on - and can function, while the locals can't.
The perverse logic that "we need immigration as birth rate is low" is focusing on the symptom instead of the cause. It's a recipe for unmitigated disaster.
Vasco said:
To those suggesting higher birth rates, nobody seems to have highlighted that more women nowadays don't want children. They now have a wide range of other interests available, certainly in the usual child bearing age groups, and this (selfish ?) change over many years isn't going to go away. Perhaps a massive increase in child allowances would persuade some ditherering females but I reckon that the % of ladies wanting children may continue to steadily drop.
.
My wife is one of these dithering selfish females. Good for her. .
bad company said:
Dave200 said:
bad company said:
That’s an over simplistic and inaccurate assessment. Of course the country needs immigration but it needs to be controlled, not predominantly uneducated young males arriving illegally.
I don’t think Reform as a party are saying any different. They are attracting some racist support though which is a shame.
Again, more lies. The shame, as usual, lies with the Reform voters who would rather reinforce their own prejudices than confront the truth.I don’t think Reform as a party are saying any different. They are attracting some racist support though which is a shame.
If every person who arrived on a "small boat" last year was "uneducated young males arriving illegally", that would make up a tiny proportion of our overall immigration.
The usual lies keep getting spouted to reinforce prejudice.
1. Illegal immigration is a tiny proportion of our immigration.
2. People arriving on "small boats" aren't "illegal", unless you can point to a law that I'm missing.
Please try and at least dally with the truth if you're going to try picking apart a critique of Reform voters as "inaccurate".
The problem here definitely isn't you lying to yourself and presenting statements without fact.
1. Less than 30,000 people reached the UK on small boats last year.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/br...
Our total immigration was 1.22 million.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/283599/immigra...
That means that people on "small boats" made up around 2% of our immigration last year.
Your first lie, comprehensively debunked.
2. 93% of "small boat" arrivals are claiming asylum, which is completely and totally legal. Absolutely nothing illegal at all.
https://migrationobservatory.ox.ac.uk/resources/br...
Your second lie, comprehensively debunked.
Now, do please stop lying so obviously. It's very unbecoming of an adult.
Vasco said:
Don't you feel that 'dealing with house prices, dealing with crime' etc etc aren't rather long term aims rather than anything solid that could actually happen in our lifetimes ?
We'd all love such changes but there's few/any suggestions as to how it could be achieved and all the time that women find more enjoyable ways to fill in their lives there won't be much desire to produce even more babies.
Not in the slightest, no.We'd all love such changes but there's few/any suggestions as to how it could be achieved and all the time that women find more enjoyable ways to fill in their lives there won't be much desire to produce even more babies.
They should be at the top of everyone's list and be acted upon immediately and decisively.
They are all connected as well. Start dealing with some aspects and that will feed into the other areas. It's a complicated problem and not an easy fix but plastering over the cracks with the mass immigration we have at the moment, is making the issues worse and not better.
skwdenyer said:
It isn't a generation hence. It is now.
We would have a serious demographic problem *now* if the statistics showed a flatlining or declining workforce coinciding with an increasing elderly population. So yes, we do have an increasing number of people aged 65+
Let's check to see if we have a declining workforce:
Oh. So despite our rapidly aging population we are actually *increasing* the size of the workforce year on year, primarily because our net immigration figures have overshot. The demographic doom mongering needs rowed back.
Olivera said:
We would have a serious demographic problem *now* if the statistics showed a flatlining or declining workforce coinciding with an increasing elderly population.
So yes, we do have an increasing number of people aged 65+
Let's check to see if we have a declining workforce:
Oh. So despite our rapidly aging population we are actually *increasing* the size of the workforce year on year, primarily because our net immigration figures have overshot. The demographic doom mongering needs rowed back.
Also the retirement age has been changing, such that the numbers in receipt of the state pension has actually fallen slightly over the past decade not increased. So yes, we do have an increasing number of people aged 65+
Let's check to see if we have a declining workforce:
Oh. So despite our rapidly aging population we are actually *increasing* the size of the workforce year on year, primarily because our net immigration figures have overshot. The demographic doom mongering needs rowed back.
We also have roughly a million more working age people on out of work benefits since 2019 and another million forecast to join them. So the issue is more about trying to increase workforce participation and not, at present, demographic collapse.
fido said:
Add in private equity and landlords who can hoover up cheaper properties and let them out to the same people.
I agree. Also, check how many MPs are landlords. https://news.sky.com/story/more-than-100-mps-earn-...
skwdenyer said:
We now have a rapidly-ageing population.
We must need mass immigration at once then, because migrants don't age. Otherwise we'd need more migrants for the ageing migrants, who in turn would need still more migrants.The thing I particularly like about the argument that we need mass immigration to look after the old people, is that we're repeatedly told the parties against it are only being voted for by old people.
bad company said:
Once again you’ve called ‘lies’ but provided no evidence to back up your assertion.
I suggest you read the vasrious immigrantion acts whre it defines an illegal immigrant as one who arrives without papers and not through the normal channels and can be convicted for doing spoI just wish any bloody govt would gorw balls and actually do something that they themselves havre sanctioned
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff