Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?

[S600BSB]

hairykrishna said:

crankedup5 said:

Bearing in mind that Reform U.K. were canvassing for candidates and then Rishi called a snap election. Plenty of information was out there suggesting Reform U.K. would be attracting former Conservative voters. So yes it’s entirely likely that a Trojan Horse was planted for the express purpose of smearing Reform U.K. when the time was right.

Or, maybe, Reform is full of racist aholes?

Sadly it is looking that way.

[fido]

Tom8 said:

Countdown said:

Tom8 said:

Strange how the tories feel so threatened by Reform. I always feel in the past, Reform/UKIP appeal to the what you would brand "working type" classes, many who would be typical labour voters.

You don't see the correlation between the Tory vote tanking and the reform vote increasing?

I'll wait until friday morning.

The "working type" switched Tory in 2019.

[WCZ]

fido said:

The "working type" switched Tory in 2019.

this.

someone (who is left wing) at our office was asking our cleaner who comes in once a week just after the elections who did she vote for - she said the cons (to their amazement!) and when asked why said "labour are just about giving free things away to those who dont work"

[2xChevrons]

WCZ said:

this.

someone (who is left wing) at our office was asking our cleaner who comes in once a week just after the elections who did she vote for - she said the cons (to their amazement!) and when asked why said "labour are just about giving free things away to those who dont work"

Ha! As if that isn't the core manifesto of Toryism since about 1820.

It's just that the Conservatives' "those who don't work" are the ones who own the economic property and extract value and rent.

That's been their steadfast, unchanging clientele across two centuries. They'll make concessions and giveaways to the aspirational workers who want to earn individual rewards for their individual work and gain some morsel of that economic property, but they're never the ones the Conservatives are actually for.

The party's electoral collapse and the rise of Reform is in large part because, post-GFC, post-Brexit and post-pandemic, that is now on blatant show to far more people than it once was.

Oh - and in the 2019 GE the plurality of people who were aged between 18 and 50 and were in full time work earning less than £65k voted Labour.

The stat that more 'working people' voted Tory than Labour only holds if you include the unemployed and pensioners. Pensioners are - for historical reasons - lumped into the same demographic categories as low-income workers which obscures the fact that if you were actually working on a typical wage in 2019 (and, crucially, if you voted) you were more likely to vote for Corbyn rather than Johnson.

2019 was more about a Labour vote collapse rather than a Tory surge.

[Countdown]

WCZ said:

fido said:

The "working type" switched Tory in 2019.

this.

someone (who is left wing) at our office was asking our cleaner who comes in once a week just after the elections who did she vote for - she said the cons (to their amazement!) and when asked why said "labour are just about giving free things away to those who dont work"

So, if the "working type" are all voting Tory where have all the 2019 Tory votes gone?

[JagLover]

2xChevrons said:

It's just that the Conservatives' "those who don't work" are the ones who own the economic property and extract value and rent.

That's been their steadfast, unchanging clientele across two centuries. They'll make concessions and giveaways to the aspirational workers who want to earn individual rewards for their individual work and gain some morsel of that economic property, but they're never the ones the Conservatives are actually for.

The party's electoral collapse and the rise of Reform is in large part because, post-GFC, post-Brexit and post-pandemic, that is now on blatant show to far more people than it once was.
.

I would argue that Mrs T was for them, but the current lot are not. In any case we are in agreement about what they are now.

Also busy revealing just how deep the corruption and lack of ethics goes during this campaign as well.

[Rocket.]

S600BSB said:

hairykrishna said:

crankedup5 said:

Bearing in mind that Reform U.K. were canvassing for candidates and then Rishi called a snap election. Plenty of information was out there suggesting Reform U.K. would be attracting former Conservative voters. So yes it’s entirely likely that a Trojan Horse was planted for the express purpose of smearing Reform U.K. when the time was right.

Or, maybe, Reform is full of racist aholes?

Sadly it is looking that way.

Sadly? You're over the moon it has at best 1% chance of being true

There are people supporting Reform with prejudices for sure but no more than the prejudice you have towards them.

[Digga]

Countdown said:

WCZ said:

fido said:

The "working type" switched Tory in 2019.

this.

someone (who is left wing) at our office was asking our cleaner who comes in once a week just after the elections who did she vote for - she said the cons (to their amazement!) and when asked why said "labour are just about giving free things away to those who dont work"

So, if the "working type" are all voting Tory where have all the 2019 Tory votes gone?

In no particular order, they have gone Refrom, Lib Dem and some Labour. Of the latter, not only will we see former Labour voters returning, but I think also voters who have really not seen any personal benefit from the last 14 years. I do not just mean those purely looking for handouts either, or low earners.

[2xChevrons]

JagLover said:

I would argue that Mrs T was for them, but the current lot are not. In any case we are in agreement about what they are now.

Also busy revealing just how deep the corruption and lack of ethics goes during this campaign as well.

Mrs T attached a big, enduring cohort into the Tory fold by selling them on the idea that they could become mini-capitalists. She did this by selling them shares in sold-off socialised infrastructure and (ironically for an ideology that idolised hard work and the value of money) selling them council houses at heavily discounted prices.

But while they were in the fold, the Thatcherite Conservative Party wasn't for these voters. For a period their interests were compatible with the long-standing movers and shakers that were and are the Tory's clientele - the top of the social and economic pyramid.

Thatcherism transferred a vast share of national wealth that was held in common to private hands and then rearranged the economy so more and more of the generated wealth went to the same place. For every penny that ended up with an aspirational working class Tory who fancied themselves a capitalist success story, £10 ended up with big capital interests.

The key difference (in ideological terms) between Reform and the Conservatives is that Reform is of the populist right, so its opponents are 'above' them. The Conservatives have always been about conserving the hierarchy, and their opponents have always been 'below' (or, at least, to the left of) them.

Thatcherism was powered by the working class blaming their own institutions (the unions, their failed class solidarity, the Labour Party, social democracy in general) and seeking to move upwards and outwards as a solution.

Reform and other populist right-wing movements are about (in rhetoric, at least) rising up from below, bypassing the elite institutions and empowering the neglected lower orders directly.

There's a reason why, over the Channel, NR is so fascinated by referendums and hostile to established democratic, legislative and judicial institutions. Tendencies all too recognisable in Reform and Farage rhetoric.

Edited by 2xChevrons on Tuesday 2nd July 16:19

[fido]

2xChevrons said:

hostile to established democratic, legislative and judicial institutions. Tendencies all too recognisable in Reform and Farage rhetoric.

You've just conflated a whole load of unrelated .. exactly which democratic, legislative and judicial institutions have Reform declared themselves hostile to? Neither the EU or EHRC are democratic.

[Harry Flashman]

Digga said:

bhstewie said:

Harry Flashman said:

I'm the child of (brown) migrants who came here escaping from a civil war. I am British, and owe a deep debt of gratitude to this country and most of its people for giving me a life that would have been denied to me. Despite that, my childhood was spent dodging National Front psychos who used to wait for me after school, and saw my parents treated with unbelievable bigotry at their workplaces and in life generally.

So yeah, I have views on people supporting a party whose members have been filmed stating that we should shoot migrants on the beaches, and who play far right anthems on their campaign materials, and who hate my kind, despite pretending not to.

But yes, I'm a racist. Good shout, genius.

Always find it funny on this thread how people who can't find it in themselves to call out the stream of continuous filth coming from Reform can manage to call someone a racist because they've pointed out an uncomfortable truth.

Of course when I say funny I actually mean grim as fk.

If you're a British person referring to a Sikh Reform candidate as "token" then, whether you are plain, white-sliced, or of East African Asian refugee descent, it makes no odds. It is, definitively, a racist thing to say.

Nonsense. It's a commentary on the party cynically using him as a figurehead, rather than the fact that he qualifies as a figurehead.

I get that this may be hard for you to understand, but I also don't really care. Dumbing down for the hard-of-thinking is how we all got to this mess, and I'm over it.

[Who_Goes_Blue]

Which bit of reforms policies make them racist?

[S600BSB]

Rocket. said:

S600BSB said:

hairykrishna said:

crankedup5 said:

Bearing in mind that Reform U.K. were canvassing for candidates and then Rishi called a snap election. Plenty of information was out there suggesting Reform U.K. would be attracting former Conservative voters. So yes it’s entirely likely that a Trojan Horse was planted for the express purpose of smearing Reform U.K. when the time was right.

Or, maybe, Reform is full of racist aholes?

Sadly it is looking that way.

Sadly? You're over the moon it has at best 1% chance of being true

There are people supporting Reform with prejudices for sure but no more than the prejudice you have towards them.

That is probably true.. I mean, you wouldn’t be particularly chuffed to find a family member or close friend had voted Reform, would you. Awful.

[valiant]

Who_Goes_Blue said:

Which bit of reforms policies make them racist?

Who has said their policies are racist?

They’re un-costed pie in the sky nonsense for the most part but racist? I don’t think anyone has stated it’s their policies that are racist.

[Who_Goes_Blue]

valiant said:

Who_Goes_Blue said:

Which bit of reforms policies make them racist?

Who has said their policies are racist?

They’re un-costed pie in the sky nonsense for the most part but racist? I don’t think anyone has stated it’s their policies that are racist.

Ah so its leftie mud slinging at unknown individuals to somehow discredit their unknown opinions.

[2xChevrons]

fido said:

You've just conflated a whole load of unrelated .. exactly which democratic, legislative and judicial institutions have Reform declared themselves hostile to? Neither the EU or EHRC are democratic.

Kinda an exemplar of my point.

Reform are hostile to the EHRC because they see as it overruling the Will of the People within our national body. It's a remote, foreign (in the literal sense) entity that imposes elite values and prevents The People doing what they want.

Populism.

Many other political ideologies do not see things like the ECHR in this way, because they do not conceive of a popular will or a national body. The ECHR is a political and legislative agreement between nations that enshrines shared desirable values and it's encumbent on the signatories to abide by it.

Same for the EU when it comes to populism v. elitism, but that's obviously less of a raw political issue.

Are you going to tell me that, more broadly, Reform isn't making good political hay by criticising and promising to...reform...major national institutions like parliament, the civil service, the judiciary etc.? No thundering about The Blob and Unelected Judges? No promises to represent The People against the remote Metropolitan Elite?

[biggbn]

Who_Goes_Blue said:

valiant said:

Who_Goes_Blue said:

Which bit of reforms policies make them racist?

Who has said their policies are racist?

They’re un-costed pie in the sky nonsense for the most part but racist? I don’t think anyone has stated it’s their policies that are racist.

Ah so its leftie mud slinging at unknown individuals to somehow discredit their unknown opinions.

Leftie mud slinging. Another brilliant example of irony? Perhaps the shops are sold out of self awareness these days?

[2xChevrons]

E: Double Post.

So good they posted it twice...

[crankedup5]

valiant said:

Who_Goes_Blue said:

Which bit of reforms policies make them racist?

Who has said their policies are racist?

They’re un-costed pie in the sky nonsense for the most part but racist? I don’t think anyone has stated it’s their policies that are racist.

Plenty of posts aligning Reform U.K immigration policy to racism.

[Who_Goes_Blue]

biggbn said:

Who_Goes_Blue said:

valiant said:

Who_Goes_Blue said:

Which bit of reforms policies make them racist?

Who has said their policies are racist?

They’re un-costed pie in the sky nonsense for the most part but racist? I don’t think anyone has stated it’s their policies that are racist.

Ah so its leftie mud slinging at unknown individuals to somehow discredit their unknown opinions.

Leftie mud slinging. Another brilliant example of irony? Perhaps the shops are sold out of self awareness these days?

That's not irony - hypocrisy maybe - but not irony