Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?

[JagLover]

s1962a said:

I saw the speech from the asian Reform fella - was pretty good actually, and in line with "taking back control" as you would expect from Reform. The audience seemed to love it and comments on the video seemed positive too. Apparently he's a big donor to the party as well.

Question I have is - do the majority of Reform members and voters accept immigrants that came here a while back and have assimilated, or is this like a one off? They'd get far more people in their camp if they didn't seem to racist and anti muslim, but this dude was muslim and obviously not white, so i'd like to understand what i'm missing in this picture.

Fair question

I think Farage is positioning them as immigration sceptic but not racist. I think many people are wary of Islam but accepting of an individual Muslim, particularly one toward the more moderate/secular side.

So I would say the majority of Reform voters are exactly as you say, but they will be attracting voters toward the more racist fringe as the only party on the right.

[turbobloke]

s1962a said:

I saw the speech from the asian Reform fella - was pretty good actually, and in line with "taking back control" as you would expect from Reform. The audience seemed to love it and comments on the video seemed positive too. Apparently he's a big donor to the party as well.

Question I have is - do the majority of Reform members and voters accept immigrants that came here a while back and have assimilated, or is this like a one off? They'd get far more people in their camp if they didn't seem to racist and anti muslim, but this dude was muslim and obviously not white, so i'd like to understand what i'm missing in this picture.

The false generalisation it's based on.

[s1962a]

turbobloke said:

s1962a said:

I saw the speech from the asian Reform fella - was pretty good actually, and in line with "taking back control" as you would expect from Reform. The audience seemed to love it and comments on the video seemed positive too. Apparently he's a big donor to the party as well.

Question I have is - do the majority of Reform members and voters accept immigrants that came here a while back and have assimilated, or is this like a one off? They'd get far more people in their camp if they didn't seem to racist and anti muslim, but this dude was muslim and obviously not white, so i'd like to understand what i'm missing in this picture.

The false generalisation it's based on.

Rishi was called a by reform members, and they have racists and nazi sympathisers within their midst. Their whole premise is based on being anti Islam, and anti immigrant. Yet they had a muslim guy giving a great speech at their forum. What generalisation is false?

[s1962a]

JagLover said:

s1962a said:

I saw the speech from the asian Reform fella - was pretty good actually, and in line with "taking back control" as you would expect from Reform. The audience seemed to love it and comments on the video seemed positive too. Apparently he's a big donor to the party as well.

Question I have is - do the majority of Reform members and voters accept immigrants that came here a while back and have assimilated, or is this like a one off? They'd get far more people in their camp if they didn't seem to racist and anti muslim, but this dude was muslim and obviously not white, so i'd like to understand what i'm missing in this picture.

Fair question

I think Farage is positioning them as immigration sceptic but not racist. I think many people are wary of Islam but accepting of an individual Muslim, particularly one toward the more moderate/secular side.

So I would say the majority of Reform voters are exactly as you say, but they will be attracting voters toward the more racist fringe as the only party on the right.

This is what i'm finding a bit confusing as well. Personally I am anti tory right now and also anti Labour as they are offering nothing new, but aren't as bad as "the other lot". Reform seem to have good soundbites and would really shake up UK politics, and up till now I thought they didn't want anything to do with descendents of immigrants already well settled here, but after that speech it got me wondering how deep that goes.

[Vanden Saab]

s1962a said:

JagLover said:

s1962a said:

I saw the speech from the asian Reform fella - was pretty good actually, and in line with "taking back control" as you would expect from Reform. The audience seemed to love it and comments on the video seemed positive too. Apparently he's a big donor to the party as well.

Question I have is - do the majority of Reform members and voters accept immigrants that came here a while back and have assimilated, or is this like a one off? They'd get far more people in their camp if they didn't seem to racist and anti muslim, but this dude was muslim and obviously not white, so i'd like to understand what i'm missing in this picture.

Fair question

I think Farage is positioning them as immigration sceptic but not racist. I think many people are wary of Islam but accepting of an individual Muslim, particularly one toward the more moderate/secular side.

So I would say the majority of Reform voters are exactly as you say, but they will be attracting voters toward the more racist fringe as the only party on the right.

This is what i'm finding a bit confusing as well. Personally I am anti tory right now and also anti Labour as they are offering nothing new, but aren't as bad as "the other lot". Reform seem to have good soundbites and would really shake up UK politics, and up till now I thought they didn't want anything to do with descendents of immigrants already well settled here, but after that speech it got me wondering how deep that goes.

The whole racism thing is a load of bks perpetrated from Brexit. How wanting people from the RoW rather than open borders with 27 white countries was twisted into racism is something you will have to ask those in favour of the EU to explain.
I want to limit immigration as bringing in over 1/2 million people a year to the UK is unsustainable. I do not care where they come from as a sensible number will integrate over 2 or 3 generations and will enhance our gene pool in the long term.
There are all sorts of nasty people connected to every party for different reasons and if the same scrutiny was shone on all parties you would see it but it seems only Reform gets this treatment.

[President Merkin]

Yeah, you wouldn't though.

[s1962a]

Vanden Saab said:

The whole racism thing is a load of bks perpetrated from Brexit. How wanting people from the RoW rather than open borders with 27 white countries was twisted into racism is something you will have to ask those in favour of the EU to explain.
I want to limit immigration as bringing in over 1/2 million people a year to the UK is unsustainable. I do not care where they come from as a sensible number will integrate over 2 or 3 generations and will enhance our gene pool in the long term.
There are all sorts of nasty people connected to every party for different reasons and if the same scrutiny was shone on all parties you would see it but it seems only Reform gets this treatment.

Ok, so Reform is welcoming of descendents of immigrants, and especially those that are muslim. And they are kicking out the "nasty" racist people from the party. Thats what you're saying?

[Dagnir]

s1962a said:

Rishi was called a by reform members, and they have racists and nazi sympathisers within their midst. Their whole premise is based on being anti Islam, and anti immigrant. Yet they had a muslim guy giving a great speech at their forum. What generalisation is false?

You're still not separating the individual from the effect of the demographic en masse.


They are separate conversations.


One is about personal characteristics and the other about an effect on society.

[119]

Reform have made a fair few gains.

There also seems to be a fair few terrified people in here.

[don'tbesilly]

119 said:

Reform have made a fair few gains.

There also seems to be a fair few terrified people in here.

They’ll be complaining about this election 8 years down the line…

[bitchstewie]

Vanden Saab said:

There are all sorts of nasty people connected to every party for different reasons and if the same scrutiny was shone on all parties you would see it but it seems only Reform gets this treatment.

Keep telling yourself that.

Always the victim.

[biggbn]

119 said:

Reform have made a fair few gains.

There also seems to be a fair few terrified people in here.

I agree on both points, but perhaps for different reasons!!

[turbobloke]

bhstewie said:

Vanden Saab said:

There are all sorts of nasty people connected to every party for different reasons and if the same scrutiny was shone on all parties you would see it but it seems only Reform gets this treatment.

Keep telling yourself that.

Always the victim.

Reform are under the microscope they all should be under.
Without similar levels of scrutiny elsewhere there's no evidence available to say VS is wrong. Hence the waffle ^

[bitchstewie]

turbobloke said:

Reform are under the microscope they all should be under.
Without similar levels of scrutiny elsewhere there's no evidence available to say VS is wrong. Hence the waffle ^

Quite right they should all be under it and they are.

Don't want to have to defend yourself from accusations you're voting for a party of racist grifters?

How about call it out when you see it and don't vote for a party literally putting them forward as candidates.

It's not hard.

[Killboy]

Vanden Saab said:

The whole racism thing is a load of bks

There has been some pretty funny AI generated images on social media being spread by racists. I'm not sure it's all bks

[biggbn]

bhstewie said:

Vanden Saab said:

There are all sorts of nasty people connected to every party for different reasons and if the same scrutiny was shone on all parties you would see it but it seems only Reform gets this treatment.

Keep telling yourself that.

Always the victim.

I actually agree with VS. There are undoubtedly appaling people attached, attracted to, or standing for each party, and whatever side you support, these people are loudly booed from 'tother lot in order to discredit the whole because of a small sum of its parts. Lefty/marxist/communist, terms I'm sure VS and others have never used to discredit anyone on the left, fascist, racist, bigoted, terms I'm SURE nobody on the left has used to discredit the Tories/Reform whatever. It does seem Reform is today's Bete Noire but remember the treatment Corbyn's labour got? The same scrutiny is never applied in an equitable fashion, it is always applied more to the one that frightens the establishment the most.

From a commie/lefty/Marxist...

[chrispmartha]

119 said:

Reform have made a fair few gains.

There also seems to be a fair few terrified people in here.

Ironic seeing the amount of pant wetting on here happening over Labour looking like winning

[bitchstewie]

biggbn said:

I actually agree with VS. There are undoubtedly appaling people attached, attracted to, or standing for each party, and whatever side you support, these people are loudly booed from 'tother lot in order to discredit the whole because of a small sum of its parts. Lefty/marxist/communist, terms I'm sure VS and others have never used to discredit anyone on the left, fascist, racist, bigoted, terms I'm SURE nobody on the left has used to discredit the Tories/Reform whatever. It does seem Reform is today's Bete Noire but remember the treatment Corbyn's labour got? The same scrutiny is never applied in an equitable fashion, it is always applied more to the one that frightens the establishment the most.

From a commie/lefty/Marxist...

Nasty people yes.

As a percentage? I'm comfortable we've seen far more with Reform than we have and would with the more mainstream parties.

You can only say "it's the vetting" for so long before it's entirely fair to ask why people with those views are drawn to your party like flies to st.

[biggbn]

bhstewie said:

biggbn said:

I actually agree with VS. There are undoubtedly appaling people attached, attracted to, or standing for each party, and whatever side you support, these people are loudly booed from 'tother lot in order to discredit the whole because of a small sum of its parts. Lefty/marxist/communist, terms I'm sure VS and others have never used to discredit anyone on the left, fascist, racist, bigoted, terms I'm SURE nobody on the left has used to discredit the Tories/Reform whatever. It does seem Reform is today's Bete Noire but remember the treatment Corbyn's labour got? The same scrutiny is never applied in an equitable fashion, it is always applied more to the one that frightens the establishment the most.

From a commie/lefty/Marxist...

Nasty people yes.

As a percentage? I'm comfortable we've seen far more with Reform than we have and would with the more mainstream parties.

You can only say "it's the vetting" for so long before it's entirely fair to ask why people with those views are drawn to your party like flies to st.

We've covered why earlier in the thread Stewie, VS and I disagree on my reasoning and that's cool. But, I'd suggest that many of the recent, and distant Tory policies and utterances have been equally calculated to appeal to voters of a harder line realpolitik. All parties do it...I'm afraid they ultimately don't care who votes for them because the vote of a Marxist anti semite (for arguments sake) is just as equal and valuable as that of a far right racist (again, picked to illuminate a point). At this time of year, the parties are csting their nets as wide and far as they can. Nobody checks the ideologies of the person who casts the vote only the mark on the voting card...

[President Merkin]

If there is one defining characteristic of Reform & for that matter, the Tories it is not casting their nets far and wide. If anything it's casting them very narrowly indeed.