Reform UK

[LimmerickLad]

don'tbesilly said:

There’s quite some turnout for Farage at the NEC today, Starmer would have to go the sand dunes of Calais to get the same amount of support.



https://x.com/isabeloakeshott/status/1807366845374...

Nothing to see here move along please.

[DeejRC]

Blue62 said:

biggbn said:

Why I said 'rarely gonna vote labour' Deej. I agree there is an overlap as you describe but in comparison to the disenfranchised Tories its much smaller

Voting behaviour is a complex issue, the Tory party started their ‘blue collar Conservative’ movement over ten years ago, presumably as recognition of an old phenomenon once labelled the ‘working class Tories’. I guess Labour has the ‘Champagne Socialists’, ultimately it’s people who support a party that doesn’t actually support them

I think the blue collar Conservatives are always those more likely to vote Reform than Labour, so while Labour will lose votes to Reform, the Tories will lose more. Some of the racist stuff flying around is OTT, all parties have an issue as does society at large, but Reform is a haven for them, which is why the analysis shows something like 68%. Suck it up.

Go on then, I’ll ask: please tell either of you two is northern and have spent time or set foot in an old working man’s club or a Labour club?
If not, do ya mind if you don’t tell an old piece of northern working class chav scum like myself about his ppl?

[turbobloke]

Blue62 said:

biggbn said:

Why I said 'rarely gonna vote labour' Deej. I agree there is an overlap as you describe but in comparison to the disenfranchised Tories its much smaller

Voting behaviour is a complex issue, the Tory party started their ‘blue collar Conservative’ movement over ten years ago, presumably as recognition of an old phenomenon once labelled the ‘working class Tories’. I guess Labour has the ‘Champagne Socialists’, ultimately it’s people who support a party that doesn’t actually support them

I think the blue collar Conservatives are always those more likely to vote Reform than Labour, so while Labour will lose votes to Reform, the Tories will lose more. Some of the racist stuff flying around is OTT, all parties have an issue as does society at large, but Reform is a haven for them, which is why the analysis shows something like 68%. Suck it up.

You're the one who needs to suck it up. With the tried, tested (2016, 2019) but, oops, failed approach to critique used by those who know best, it'll grab fewer hearts and minds than Starmer has, which is going some. See Lord Ashcroft analysis posted recently.

Talking of analysis, there's some out there 1 day old saying Reform had dropped in the polls. The latest MRP poll analysis posted a day ago put Reform at 21% and the prospect of 29 seats (Tories 18%) according to analysis by Electoral Calculus. Polls Schmolls go up and down, and that's analysis.

[don'tbesilly]

LimmerickLad said:

don'tbesilly said:

There’s quite some turnout for Farage at the NEC today, Starmer would have to go the sand dunes of Calais to get the same amount of support.



https://x.com/isabeloakeshott/status/1807366845374...

Nothing to see here move along please.

Zia Yusuf is one hell of a good speaker and the turnout at the NEC is astonishing!

I can see why Reform are getting so much support even though I haven’t voted for them.

[biggbn]

DeejRC said:

Blue62 said:

biggbn said:

Why I said 'rarely gonna vote labour' Deej. I agree there is an overlap as you describe but in comparison to the disenfranchised Tories its much smaller

Voting behaviour is a complex issue, the Tory party started their ‘blue collar Conservative’ movement over ten years ago, presumably as recognition of an old phenomenon once labelled the ‘working class Tories’. I guess Labour has the ‘Champagne Socialists’, ultimately it’s people who support a party that doesn’t actually support them

I think the blue collar Conservatives are always those more likely to vote Reform than Labour, so while Labour will lose votes to Reform, the Tories will lose more. Some of the racist stuff flying around is OTT, all parties have an issue as does society at large, but Reform is a haven for them, which is why the analysis shows something like 68%. Suck it up.

Go on then, I’ll ask: please tell either of you two is northern and have spent time or set foot in an old working man’s club or a Labour club?
If not, do ya mind if you don’t tell an old piece of northern working class chav scum like myself about his ppl?

Deej, really? I answered your post earlier and an more than aware of the existing if somewhat stereotypical 'old'; not only in age, Labour voter. My point was, and is, that reform is mopping up many more disenfranchised Tory voters than this type of Labour voter or undecided voters, something the polls seem to reflect?

Ps, at the risk of a 'considerably richer than you' moment, I'm pretty sure I am well aware of what it is like to live and work in underprivileged areas having done so all my life, and ive spent many a happy hour in 'clubbies' as we call them 'up here'. What a strange assunption to make about someone you have never met...x

Edited by biggbn on Sunday 30th June 13:28

[Vanden Saab]

don'tbesilly said:

LimmerickLad said:

don'tbesilly said:

There’s quite some turnout for Farage at the NEC today, Starmer would have to go the sand dunes of Calais to get the same amount of support.



https://x.com/isabeloakeshott/status/1807366845374...

Nothing to see here move along please.

Zia Yusuf is one hell of a good speaker and the turnout at the NEC is astonishing!

I can see why Reform are getting so much support even though I haven’t voted for them.

All those racists cheering and clapping the err Muslim speaker.

[turbobloke]

Vanden Saab said:

don'tbesilly said:

LimmerickLad said:

don'tbesilly said:

There’s quite some turnout for Farage at the NEC today, Starmer would have to go the sand dunes of Calais to get the same amount of support.



https://x.com/isabeloakeshott/status/1807366845374...

Nothing to see here move along please.

Zia Yusuf is one hell of a good speaker and the turnout at the NEC is astonishing!

I can see why Reform are getting so much support even though I haven’t voted for them.

All those racists cheering and clapping the err Muslim speaker.

Kindly refrain from popping the hyperbile bubble, splashes from that stuff are corrosive.

[skwdenyer]

Vasco said:

bad company said:

I’m still undecided and may elect to spoil my ballot paper:-

I’m a natural and long term Conservative voter and ex party member. I generally approve of their policies but they failed to deliver on previous promises. Also some terrible leadership over the years. I’m also very dissatisfied with the local conservative candidate James Cleverly.

Labour. The policies appear ok at first glance but very worried about taxes they haven’t mentioned and could increase. Also worried about likely increased union power and loony left influence once they’re in power. Kier Starmer seems bland and uninspiring.

Lib/Dem. They’ve said they’d raise taxes which is at least honest. Ed Davey comes across as a clown to me. What on earth is he doing being photographed falling into the water. Does he really think that’ll win him votes? Also they clearly want to re join the EU. That’s a big no from me.

Reform. Some good policies imo but are they properly costed? I like Nigel Farage though, he and the party have been very badly treated by the BBC. The very biased Question Time audience being a clear example. I’m a bit put off by the numbers of racist supporters.

Green. Unelectable imo though they have my gratitude and respect for influencing the major parties to adopt some green policies.

I'd agree with virtually 100% of that - a good summary (and one that probably applies to a vast number of voters).
.

The Conservatives have consistently failed to deliver on their promises because those promises were unattainable. I know it doesn’t fit with your world view, but you can’t have decent services and low taxes. We don’t have an Empire to fall back on any longer; there’s no secret of economics that only the Conservatives can access and which eludes every other peer nation.

Taxation (as a share of GDP) needs to rise.

Davey “clowns” because he’s not guaranteed coverage any other way under the current rules. Farage likewise should get little / no airtime for the same reason, but manages to be just as clown-like in his own way abs therefore becomes newsworthy.

Which of Farage’s policies do you think are good? And, no, they’re not remotely costed.

[TonyToniTone]

robscot said:

Hilarious tonight at a Reform gig

Farage doing his nut, and terrible attempt to take it down

https://x.com/bydonkeys/status/1807141707571454290...

[smn159]

skwdenyer said:

The Conservatives have consistently failed to deliver on their promises because those promises were unattainable. I know it doesn’t fit with your world view, but you can’t have decent services and low taxes. We don’t have an Empire to fall back on any longer; there’s no secret of economics that only the Conservatives can access and which eludes every other peer nation.

Taxation (as a share of GDP) needs to rise.

Absolutely. The Conservatives have failed largely because they have failed to provide decent services - deliberately in many cases via austerity and through incompetent regulation of private utilities in others. In pretty much every single area from transport and basic infrastructure to healthcare, services are much worse than when they came to power. This, coupled with the cost of living increases from Covid but exacerbated by Brexit have caused much of the anger in the country.

Farage and Tice look to exploit this by pointing at immigration as the fundamental cause, with the Tories playing along to distract from their appalling record. The hollowing out of the Tory party by Johnson has left a bunch of incompetents who have fallen back on culture wars because they don't have the intellectual capacity for real solutions.

Immigration is a side issue compared to the above,

Edited by smn159 on Sunday 30th June 13:55

[Vasco]

skwdenyer said:

Vasco said:

bad company said:

I’m still undecided and may elect to spoil my ballot paper:-

I’m a natural and long term Conservative voter and ex party member. I generally approve of their policies but they failed to deliver on previous promises. Also some terrible leadership over the years. I’m also very dissatisfied with the local conservative candidate James Cleverly.

Labour. The policies appear ok at first glance but very worried about taxes they haven’t mentioned and could increase. Also worried about likely increased union power and loony left influence once they’re in power. Kier Starmer seems bland and uninspiring.

Lib/Dem. They’ve said they’d raise taxes which is at least honest. Ed Davey comes across as a clown to me. What on earth is he doing being photographed falling into the water. Does he really think that’ll win him votes? Also they clearly want to re join the EU. That’s a big no from me.

Reform. Some good policies imo but are they properly costed? I like Nigel Farage though, he and the party have been very badly treated by the BBC. The very biased Question Time audience being a clear example. I’m a bit put off by the numbers of racist supporters.

Green. Unelectable imo though they have my gratitude and respect for influencing the major parties to adopt some green policies.

I'd agree with virtually 100% of that - a good summary (and one that probably applies to a vast number of voters).
.

The Conservatives have consistently failed to deliver on their promises because those promises were unattainable. I know it doesn’t fit with your world view, but you can’t have decent services and low taxes. We don’t have an Empire to fall back on any longer; there’s no secret of economics that only the Conservatives can access and which eludes every other peer nation.

Taxation (as a share of GDP) needs to rise.

Davey “clowns” because he’s not guaranteed coverage any other way under the current rules. Farage likewise should get little / no airtime for the same reason, but manages to be just as clown-like in his own way abs therefore becomes newsworthy.

Which of Farage’s policies do you think are good? And, no, they’re not remotely costed.

I think you have me wrong if you think that I want Farage to win much - the Reform proposals have holes throughout everything they do, not least the finances etc.
I am happy to debate anything about the GE but Labour and Starmer leave me cold and not deserving of anything really. Tories have been incredibly poor, for years, and LibDems are a joke. There's little else in England to even consider.........just Reform.
As a Tory alternative I think they'll pick up many votes and it will be interesting to see if that achieves a few MPs.
.

[biggbn]

skwdenyer said:

Vasco said:

bad company said:

I’m still undecided and may elect to spoil my ballot paper:-

I’m a natural and long term Conservative voter and ex party member. I generally approve of their policies but they failed to deliver on previous promises. Also some terrible leadership over the years. I’m also very dissatisfied with the local conservative candidate James Cleverly.

Labour. The policies appear ok at first glance but very worried about taxes they haven’t mentioned and could increase. Also worried about likely increased union power and loony left influence once they’re in power. Kier Starmer seems bland and uninspiring.

Lib/Dem. They’ve said they’d raise taxes which is at least honest. Ed Davey comes across as a clown to me. What on earth is he doing being photographed falling into the water. Does he really think that’ll win him votes? Also they clearly want to re join the EU. That’s a big no from me.

Reform. Some good policies imo but are they properly costed? I like Nigel Farage though, he and the party have been very badly treated by the BBC. The very biased Question Time audience being a clear example. I’m a bit put off by the numbers of racist supporters.

Green. Unelectable imo though they have my gratitude and respect for influencing the major parties to adopt some green policies.

I'd agree with virtually 100% of that - a good summary (and one that probably applies to a vast number of voters).
.

The Conservatives have consistently failed to deliver on their promises because those promises were unattainable. I know it doesn’t fit with your world view, but you can’t have decent services and low taxes. We don’t have an Empire to fall back on any longer; there’s no secret of economics that only the Conservatives can access and which eludes every other peer nation.

Taxation (as a share of GDP) needs to rise.

Davey “clowns” because he’s not guaranteed coverage any other way under the current rules. Farage likewise should get little / no airtime for the same reason, but manages to be just as clown-like in his own way abs therefore becomes newsworthy.

Which of Farage’s policies do you think are good? And, no, they’re not remotely costed.

I mentioned the uncosted manifesto, indeed compared it to Corbyns uncosted one that was widely derided, yet, tumbleweed.....must be making the right kind of promises with the imaginary money?

[I am alright Jack]

bhstewie said:

Can't call out the openly racist and homophobic filth those Reform candidates come out with.

Desperately trying to make something out of saying Sunak doesn't get normal people.

Pathetic.

Nobody's "Desperately trying to make something out of saying Sunak doesn't get normal people" they are pointing out that no matter what words may be used people will interpret them differently either by accident or malice.

Forgetting how stupidly ridiculous this statement is, what do you think, "not all reform voters are racist but all racists vote reform" do you think it is "filth" or is it perfectly acceptable because the poster didn't actually call anybody a racist?

[biggbn]

I am alright Jack said:

bhstewie said:

Can't call out the openly racist and homophobic filth those Reform candidates come out with.

Desperately trying to make something out of saying Sunak doesn't get normal people.

Pathetic.

Nobody's "Desperately trying to make something out of saying Sunak doesn't get normal people" they are pointing out that no matter what words may be used people will interpret them differently either by accident or malice.

Forgetting how stupidly ridiculous this statement is, what do you think, "not all reform voters are racist but all racists vote reform" do you think it is "filth" or is it perfectly acceptable because the poster didn't actually call anybody a racist?

Did anyone actually suggest that IAJ?

[MDMetal]

Reform are absolutely not going to be elected so wether their ideas are costed perfectly or not is only as relevant as your views in wether the greens or the lib dems are perfectly coated (or too be honest even the Torys)

I definitely subscribe to the pendulum effect idea. Voting reform forces all parties to re-evaluate where they think the centre ground really is, it looks suspiciously like it's not where the mainstream parties think it is. If the end result is a smashed Tory party that rebuilds itself to be an actual Tory party that's a win from my POV. Things tend not to improve on their own.

[Wills2]

Watched the rally at the NEC, it's just a lot of rabble rousing and complaining (to be fair there is a lot to complain about after Brexit) but that's all he's got just like he was on the run up to the referendum, he's a political arsonist, nothing more.

[biggbn]

MDMetal said:

Reform are absolutely not going to be elected so wether their ideas are costed perfectly or not is only as relevant as your views in wether the greens or the lib dems are perfectly coated (or too be honest even the Torys)

I definitely subscribe to the pendulum effect idea. Voting reform forces all parties to re-evaluate where they think the centre ground really is, it looks suspiciously like it's not where the mainstream parties think it is. If the end result is a smashed Tory party that rebuilds itself to be an actual Tory party that's a win from my POV. Things tend not to improve on their own.

Good, fair post, although id contend that parties should all have costed manifestos. I'd love to see the Tories reform, no pun intended, as a broad church with wider appeal. They are a historically great parry, one of the most important and significant of modern times and it is sad to see the parody, actually beyond parody, they have allowed themselves to become. Still, they chose to play chess with the pigeon and not just shoo it away....

[I am alright Jack]

biggbn said:

Did anyone actually suggest that IAJ?

yes, It's been quoted a few times in this thread although not sure who said it first.

[rscott]

Farage's crowd at the NEC is quite impressive, but nothing compared to Binface's...

[biggbn]

I am alright Jack said:

biggbn said:

Did anyone actually suggest that IAJ?

yes, It's been quoted a few times in this thread although not sure who said it first.

I am surprised at that. It is obvious that some people are racist, bigoted, whatever, and no party has exclusive appeal to them. Every party will have some undesirable, for whatever reasons, characters casting a vote for them. Some court these votes more than others I feel, end of the day, every vote cast is equal.