Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?

[Elysium]

bhstewie said:

People are carrying on as if the actor chap is the only issue here.

Take him out of things.

There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.

I agree, but it’s also striking that this tactic has been used by the same people against the same political group over three elections. Thats relatively harmless when they are a fringe party, but more questionable if Reform are potentially going to achieve 15-20% of the boat.

If this sort of thing is going to happen there needs to be a similar expose into the main parties, who I am sure also have some dodgy characters on the fringes.

Many people (including you it seems) are keen to dismiss Reform as a mass collective of racist bigots. But that gets rather more difficult when the two main parties agree with them on immigration and the Conservatives agree with them on gender issues.

[Ian Geary]

Tonberry said:

The desire for a reduction in immigration isn't inherently racist. There are many reasons (imagined or otherwise) why someone may want less people entering a country.

But taking issue with immigration based on the skin colour of those arriving is racist.

Racism isn't new, and we know that there are a lot of people in this country who despise ethnic minorities.

Nothing complex about it.

This cuts both ways though

People have genuine concerns about unfettered arrivals into the UK

The people arriving are largely BME /global majority / dark (delete as appropriate)

Political critics /opponents jump on this: "oh look, you're anti BME /global majority/ dark people, you are therefore racist"

Totally sidestepping any actual intercourse on the issue. We saw this all through the Brexit campaign, and it is still very regularly done in the media.

To the point you won't even see reference to parties being "right wing" any more - it's always "far right", and now "fascist" because some reform candidates had followed a bloke on Facebook linked to the national front.

To address the thread title - reform is highlighting divisions in our country. Not just political divisions- that is just how it manifests. Actual division in ideology and views on the best way forward.



Personally I can't stand farage - he stokes division and is to me a pied piper for the stupid and dim witted.

For instance I caught part of a radio phone in: left wing vs right wing - the left wing caller was way more intellectual and coherent. All the right winger could say was "the country's full", and "enough is enough" with no real substance behind those sound bites he'd heard down the pub.


However, the only warning is just look at France - will we be there in a decade or so more?

[bitchstewie]

Elysium said:

I agree, but it’s also striking that this tactic has been used by the same people against the same political group over three elections. Thats relatively harmless when they are a fringe party, but more questionable if Reform are potentially going to achieve 15-20% of the boat.

If this sort of thing is going to happen there needs to be a similar expose into the main parties, who I am sure also have some dodgy characters on the fringes.

Many people (including you it seems) are keen to dismiss Reform as a mass collective of racist bigots. But that gets rather more difficult when the two main parties agree with them on immigration and the Conservatives agree with them on gender issues.

I think you're wilfully conflating the policy with the rhetoric used.

I don't have a problem with a policy of "stop the boats".

I do have a problem with the rhetoric some people use about doing so.

I don't have a problem with people thinking the Police shouldn't have Pride flags on their cars.

I do have a problem with the filth Farage's event organiser used about it.

A respectful difference of opinion is not the same as "P word" this and "nonces" that.

[rscott]

bad company said:

I’m still undecided and may elect to spoil my ballot paper:-

I’m a natural and long term Conservative voter and ex party member. I generally approve of their policies but they failed to deliver on previous promises. Also some terrible leadership over the years. I’m also very dissatisfied with the local conservative candidate James Cleverly.

Labour. The policies appear ok at first glance but very worried about taxes they haven’t mentioned and could increase. Also worried about likely increased union power and loony left influence once they’re in power. Kier Starmer seems bland and uninspiring.

Lib/Dem. They’ve said they’d raise taxes which is at least honest. Ed Davey comes across as a clown to me. What on earth is he doing being photographed falling into the water. Does he really think that’ll win him votes? Also they clearly want to re join the EU. That’s a big no from me.

Reform. Some good policies imo but are they properly costed? I like Nigel Farage though, he and the party have been very badly treated by the BBC. The very biased Question Time audience being a clear example. I’m a bit put off by the numbers of racist supporters.

Green. Unelectable imo though they have my gratitude and respect for influencing the major parties to adopt some green policies.

Reform's policy on stopping the boats appears to involve using the Royal Marines to drop them back on French beaches? At least that was Farage's explanation of how it might work.
Is that one of their good policies?

[don'tbesilly]

markh1973 said:

bhstewie said:

People are carrying on as if the actor chap is the only issue here.

Take him out of things.

There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.

Plus we have Farage saying that the electorate should still vite for 3 candidates who are no longer Reform candidates in order to show support for Reform.

So encouraging people to vote for people with obnoxious views in order to show support for a party that doesn't have obnoxious views.....

Farage has dropped 3 candidates, have you got a link/source for your allegation here:

markh1973 said:

Plus we have Farage saying that the electorate should still vite for 3 candidates who are no longer Reform candidates in order to show support for Reform.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c727xz2kkgjo

[rscott]

Elysium said:

bhstewie said:

People are carrying on as if the actor chap is the only issue here.

Take him out of things.

There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.

I agree, but it’s also striking that this tactic has been used by the same people against the same political group over three elections. Thats relatively harmless when they are a fringe party, but more questionable if Reform are potentially going to achieve 15-20% of the boat.

If this sort of thing is going to happen there needs to be a similar expose into the main parties, who I am sure also have some dodgy characters on the fringes.

Many people (including you it seems) are keen to dismiss Reform as a mass collective of racist bigots. But that gets rather more difficult when the two main parties agree with them on immigration and the Conservatives agree with them on gender issues.

The 2 main parties agree immigration needs reducing, but at least have some sort of plan for reducing illegal immigration. Reform seem to think they can leave the ECHR and just dump the back on the French beaches.

It's quite hard to challenge the view that Reform have more than their fair share of bigots and racists when stories like this keep appearing - 2 candidates found to be posting anti-Semitic content. https://news.sky.com/story/reform-candidates-accus...

[JagLover]

valiant said:

It will all come out in the end no doubt and if C4 have been duped or conspired in some funny business then they’ll have to answer for that themselves but as there’s been no definitive answer yet yelling ‘conspiracy’ at this stage is very Trumpian.

Bit late if the truth emerges post election and people have voted on the basis of statements made by an actor who was trying to discredit Reform. Statements which were headline news for quite some time.

Also not sure it is "Trumpian" to find it suspicious that an actor appearing in the Channel documentary is not speaking with his true speaking voice.

[MDMetal]

valiant said:

bad company said:

I’m still undecided and may elect to spoil my ballot paper:-
.

Reform. Some good policies imo but are they properly costed? I like Nigel Farage though, he and the party have been very badly treated by the BBC. The very biased Question Time audience being a clear example. I’m a bit put off by the numbers of racist supporters.

.

No they haven’t. It’s just the media are finally holding them to the same scrutiny as the other parties.

Reform and Farage have had a very easy ride since they formed. They were seen as a novelty, a disruption amd given far more airtime than their polling numbers merited at the time.

Now that polling numbers have climbed and Farage decided to stand, a more critical look has been taken. So we see their fantasy manifesto torn to shreds over its costing and implementation, we see remarks Farage made in the past questioned and him asked to explain them. We see the media hold his own party to account for the failings of some of its supporters and candidates and as we saw on QT the other night, pushed on policy (like the Marines comment) where he was asked to explain in detail how he would achieve his goals.

This is nothing more than what’s asked of the other parties and if Reform wants to be seen as a major force in British politics then it must be able to stand up and explain itself and not get into a hissy fit and scream “unfair” when a question or audience appear hostile.

If Reform wants to be seen more than just a fringe party then it seriously needs to get its st together. It lacks professionalism, organisation and detail. Now that the spotlight is on them to a greater degree, it has to able to handle proper scrutiny.

100% I mean channel 4 have followed round supports if all the other major parties to find racial slurs being used right? Equally I recall the stunt where Led By Donkeys listed SKS's record during his time as DPP... Oh wait no of course none of that happened....

[Killboy]

rustyuk said:

The suggestion is that the chap who made the racist remarks was an actor employed by the production company. He has been found to have worked for C4 before and advertises as an undercover actor.

What did the others do?

[President Merkin]

MDMetal said:

100% I mean channel 4 have followed round supports if all the other major parties to find racial slurs being used right? Equally I recall the stunt where Led By Donkeys listed SKS's record during his time as DPP... Oh wait no of course none of that happened....

What about Starmer's period as DPP do you think merits a Led By Donkeys expose?

[NuckyThompson]

Bill said:

OddCat said:

MDMetal said:

Equally trying to claim Farage is somehow Putin's chum because he wisely pointed out that giving a madman with a giant arm a reason to go to war might not be the best plan is somewhat akin to suggesting that telling your friend not to piss in the school bullys chips somehow makes him the bullys bestest chum

Brilliant !

Anyone who can't see this is being deliberately stupid.

Rather that than being a Putin apologist and appeaser.

I'd have thought he'd be keen on sovereign nations going their own way...

The pissing on chips is a good analogy, you have to pick apart what is actually meant sometimes. Obviously Farage isn’t putins chum and what he was saying was that the west give him a good enough excuse to invade Ukraine. The fact is that Biden isn’t seen as a strong leader and the Afghan debacle gave putin more confidence. Britain is in political disarray and so is France so all further emboldening putin.

Most of the west thought he wouldn’t actually do it and they were wrong and it caused a massive upheaval for the whole of the west. We’re now in limbo we’re withdrawing support for Ukraine and letting Putin have at it will also embolden china and NK.

Lack of foresight and party politics has caused a lot of this. The political party that puts country before party is what is needed. Sadly I don’t think that is any of them right now.

[markh1973]

don'tbesilly said:

markh1973 said:

bhstewie said:

People are carrying on as if the actor chap is the only issue here.

Take him out of things.

There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.

Plus we have Farage saying that the electorate should still vite for 3 candidates who are no longer Reform candidates in order to show support for Reform.

So encouraging people to vote for people with obnoxious views in order to show support for a party that doesn't have obnoxious views.....

Farage has dropped 3 candidates, have you got a link/source for your allegation here:

markh1973 said:

Plus we have Farage saying that the electorate should still vite for 3 candidates who are no longer Reform candidates in order to show support for Reform.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c727xz2kkgjo

Yes - it's the 4th paragraph of the BBC story you linked to

[Vasco]

bad company said:

I’m still undecided and may elect to spoil my ballot paper:-

I’m a natural and long term Conservative voter and ex party member. I generally approve of their policies but they failed to deliver on previous promises. Also some terrible leadership over the years. I’m also very dissatisfied with the local conservative candidate James Cleverly.

Labour. The policies appear ok at first glance but very worried about taxes they haven’t mentioned and could increase. Also worried about likely increased union power and loony left influence once they’re in power. Kier Starmer seems bland and uninspiring.

Lib/Dem. They’ve said they’d raise taxes which is at least honest. Ed Davey comes across as a clown to me. What on earth is he doing being photographed falling into the water. Does he really think that’ll win him votes? Also they clearly want to re join the EU. That’s a big no from me.

Reform. Some good policies imo but are they properly costed? I like Nigel Farage though, he and the party have been very badly treated by the BBC. The very biased Question Time audience being a clear example. I’m a bit put off by the numbers of racist supporters.

Green. Unelectable imo though they have my gratitude and respect for influencing the major parties to adopt some green policies.

I'd agree with virtually 100% of that - a good summary (and one that probably applies to a vast number of voters).
.

[Vanden Saab]

bhstewie said:

biggbn said:

119 said:

biggbn said:

Is there a connection between a party leader who makes loaded but somewhat ambiguous and therefore deniable statements like the PM doesn't understand 'our' culture and some of those who flock to, and defend, his party?

Are you just filling in for Stewie whilst he is doing the washing up?

Oh my goodness, you really are a joy ain't ya? Did Farage say that? Now, that's a yes or no question. I'll answer it for you. Yes. Could that kind of statement appeal to people for whom the PM's family heritage could be a problem? Again, I'll answer thst one for you. Yes, of course it could be.

I'm not really sure what your problem with me is brother man, bit that's a couple of times you've had a go at me now. We have different opinions and that's cool. Rather than trying to convince each other we are right, why not let's try to understand each other? We can do that by discussing things, and I'm happy to do that with anyone. If your not, that's cool. Your assumption that I am a Labour supporter does, I'll admit, kind of irk me. I have been vocal in my criticism of Starmer so it's somewhat lazy labelling if you don't mind me saying so. I believe in humanity, empathy and open mindedness and if you ain't on that train, that's cool. But let's talk about why. Help me understand you. Peace and love as ever, gbn x

This is the level unfortunately.

Your question is of course an entirely fair one.

People just don't like being asked it which is why nobody has answered it.

Presumably because it holds a mirror up about exactly what it is they see in Farage and his candidates that they admire so much.

I do like this idea that culture (do not like the word but it will do) is seen by some as a result of colour rather than how you act by some. I do work for a building company, a diverse group of people who all work with each other and have done for years. I am pretty sure if Rishi spent a day with us he would have no idea what was going on and be pretty shocked by what was said between the people there. He for sure would not understand it any more than I would understand the political world he lives in.
Knowing your background do you think he would understand your job or what goes on in the classroom if he came to your school let alone your previous occupation. Now compare him to Angela Rayner. I have no time for her political views but i think she would fit right in at my work. I know Farage did not have the same upbringing but you can see him being at home having a pint in the pub.
It is this obvious fish out of water thing in ordinary situations that Farage is talking about not his background or the colour of his skin.

[don'tbesilly]

markh1973 said:

don'tbesilly said:

markh1973 said:

bhstewie said:

People are carrying on as if the actor chap is the only issue here.

Take him out of things.

There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.

Plus we have Farage saying that the electorate should still vite for 3 candidates who are no longer Reform candidates in order to show support for Reform.

So encouraging people to vote for people with obnoxious views in order to show support for a party that doesn't have obnoxious views.....

Farage has dropped 3 candidates, have you got a link/source for your allegation here:

markh1973 said:

Plus we have Farage saying that the electorate should still vite for 3 candidates who are no longer Reform candidates in order to show support for Reform.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c727xz2kkgjo

Yes - it's the 4th paragraph of the BBC story you linked to

So have the Tory party and the Labour Party told their supporters in constituencies where both parties have withdrawn support from their candidates NOT to vote for their parties?

[bitchstewie]

Vanden Saab said:

I do like this idea that culture (do not like the word but it will do) is seen by some as a result of colour rather than how you act by some. I do work for a building company, a diverse group of people who all work with each other and have done for years. I am pretty sure if Rishi spent a day with us he would have no idea what was going on and be pretty shocked by what was said between the people there. He for sure would not understand it any more than I would understand the political world he lives in.
Knowing your background do you think he would understand your job or what goes on in the classroom if he came to your school let alone your previous occupation. Now compare him to Angela Rayner. I have no time for her political views but i think she would fit right in at my work. I know Farage did not have the same upbringing but you can see him being at home having a pint in the pub.
It is this obvious fish out of water thing in ordinary situations that Farage is talking about not his background or the colour of his skin.

I think Farage toes a very fine line when he talks about Sunak not getting "our" culture.

He does it very deliberately and the people who are drawn towards him know exactly what he meant by it but he's close enough to the line to pull the innocent "who me?" face and for it be compared to a building site and impossible to prove.

[Elysium]

bhstewie said:

Elysium said:

I agree, but it’s also striking that this tactic has been used by the same people against the same political group over three elections. Thats relatively harmless when they are a fringe party, but more questionable if Reform are potentially going to achieve 15-20% of the boat.

If this sort of thing is going to happen there needs to be a similar expose into the main parties, who I am sure also have some dodgy characters on the fringes.

Many people (including you it seems) are keen to dismiss Reform as a mass collective of racist bigots. But that gets rather more difficult when the two main parties agree with them on immigration and the Conservatives agree with them on gender issues.

I think you're wilfully conflating the policy with the rhetoric used.

I don't have a problem with a policy of "stop the boats".

I do have a problem with the rhetoric some people use about doing so.

I don't have a problem with people thinking the Police shouldn't have Pride flags on their cars.

I do have a problem with the filth Farage's event organiser used about it.

A respectful difference of opinion is not the same as "P word" this and "nonces" that.

I agree that the rhetoric used by the people in the C4 documentary was unacceptable. However, my point is actually that this should not be conflated with their policies.

Tackling immigration and accepting that some aspects of LGBTQ+ activism are disputable political ideologies are mainstream issues for this campaign, supported it seems by the majority of voters. Being in favour of these does not make someone racist or bigoted. However, there was a time when many would have argued that it did.

Racists and bigots still exist and C4 found some associated with Reform. But you can’t reasonably argue today that this is because of what Reform stands for, given that those policies are mainstream.

It’s like a pendulum, for years it’s been difficult to draw attention to these issues without being shouted down as a bad person. This disenfranchises the people who feel there is a problem. Reform has given them a voice and it’s become clear that these issues have swung further than people want, so that their numbers are significant enough that the other parties now also want to listen.

So the pendulum will start to swing the other way for a time.

[Vasco]

valiant said:

No they haven’t. It’s just the media are finally holding them to the same scrutiny as the other parties.

Reform and Farage have had a very easy ride since they formed. They were seen as a novelty, a disruption amd given far more airtime than their polling numbers merited at the time.

Now that polling numbers have climbed and Farage decided to stand, a more critical look has been taken. So we see their fantasy manifesto torn to shreds over its costing and implementation, we see remarks Farage made in the past questioned and him asked to explain them. We see the media hold his own party to account for the failings of some of its supporters and candidates and as we saw on QT the other night, pushed on policy (like the Marines comment) where he was asked to explain in detail how he would achieve his goals.

This is nothing more than what’s asked of the other parties and if Reform wants to be seen as a major force in British politics then it must be able to stand up and explain itself and not get into a hissy fit and scream “unfair” when a question or audience appear hostile.

If Reform wants to be seen more than just a fringe party then it seriously needs to get its st together. It lacks professionalism, organisation and detail. Now that the spotlight is on them to a greater degree, it has to able to handle proper scrutiny.

I would suggest that Reform has been 'scrutinised', attacked and rubbished by many people, many times - you've only got to read some of the twaddle on here to know that some Tory or Labour supporters will just never give up and let Reform have a chance to gain a few MPs, ready for 2029. Give them 5-10 MPs and see what they make of it - LibDems and Greens are largely a waste of space so let's see another Party come in and shake up the 2 main, but poor, alternatives.

[bad company]

valiant said:

bad company said:

I’m still undecided and may elect to spoil my ballot paper:-
.

Reform. Some good policies imo but are they properly costed? I like Nigel Farage though, he and the party have been very badly treated by the BBC. The very biased Question Time audience being a clear example. I’m a bit put off by the numbers of racist supporters.

.

No they haven’t. It’s just the media are finally holding them to the same scrutiny as the other parties.

Reform and Farage have had a very easy ride since they formed. They were seen as a novelty, a disruption amd given far more airtime than their polling numbers merited at the time.

Now that polling numbers have climbed and Farage decided to stand, a more critical look has been taken. So we see their fantasy manifesto torn to shreds over its costing and implementation, we see remarks Farage made in the past questioned and him asked to explain them. We see the media hold his own party to account for the failings of some of its supporters and candidates and as we saw on QT the other night, pushed on policy (like the Marines comment) where he was asked to explain in detail how he would achieve his goals.

This is nothing more than what’s asked of the other parties and if Reform wants to be seen as a major force in British politics then it must be able to stand up and explain itself and not get into a hissy fit and scream “unfair” when a question or audience appear hostile.

If Reform wants to be seen more than just a fringe party then it seriously needs to get its st together. It lacks professionalism, organisation and detail. Now that the spotlight is on them to a greater degree, it has to able to handle proper scrutiny.

With a predicted 16% of the vote I don’t think they’re a fringe party any more.

Anyway they deserve to be criticised but fairly. The BBC audience on Question Time was simply appallingly left wing. What happened to BBC neutrality?

[biggbn]

Vanden Saab said:

bhstewie said:

biggbn said:

119 said:

biggbn said:

Is there a connection between a party leader who makes loaded but somewhat ambiguous and therefore deniable statements like the PM doesn't understand 'our' culture and some of those who flock to, and defend, his party?

Are you just filling in for Stewie whilst he is doing the washing up?

Oh my goodness, you really are a joy ain't ya? Did Farage say that? Now, that's a yes or no question. I'll answer it for you. Yes. Could that kind of statement appeal to people for whom the PM's family heritage could be a problem? Again, I'll answer thst one for you. Yes, of course it could be.

I'm not really sure what your problem with me is brother man, bit that's a couple of times you've had a go at me now. We have different opinions and that's cool. Rather than trying to convince each other we are right, why not let's try to understand each other? We can do that by discussing things, and I'm happy to do that with anyone. If your not, that's cool. Your assumption that I am a Labour supporter does, I'll admit, kind of irk me. I have been vocal in my criticism of Starmer so it's somewhat lazy labelling if you don't mind me saying so. I believe in humanity, empathy and open mindedness and if you ain't on that train, that's cool. But let's talk about why. Help me understand you. Peace and love as ever, gbn x

This is the level unfortunately.

Your question is of course an entirely fair one.

People just don't like being asked it which is why nobody has answered it.

Presumably because it holds a mirror up about exactly what it is they see in Farage and his candidates that they admire so much.

I do like this idea that culture (do not like the word but it will do) is seen by some as a result of colour rather than how you act by some. I do work for a building company, a diverse group of people who all work with each other and have done for years. I am pretty sure if Rishi spent a day with us he would have no idea what was going on and be pretty shocked by what was said between the people there. He for sure would not understand it any more than I would understand the political world he lives in.
Knowing your background do you think he would understand your job or what goes on in the classroom if he came to your school let alone your previous occupation. Now compare him to Angela Rayner. I have no time for her political views but i think she would fit right in at my work. I know Farage did not have the same upbringing but you can see him being at home having a pint in the pub.
It is this obvious fish out of water thing in ordinary situations that Farage is talking about not his background or the colour of his skin.

VS, this is exactly the point I was making. In my opinion, Farage's comment was deliberately ambiguous so he can have the fall back position you allude to. Culture is a huge spectrum and is not only related to colour, religion or the other 'big hitters'. I'm sorry if I didn't male this clear. Farage is a skilled orator and is clearly advised well on what to say, when, and how far to go and he always leaves himself enough wriggle room for a hands up 'not me guv' impression of innocence.