Discussion
Elysium said:
Good joke, but actually quite a good question as well.
The 2015 example exposed a racist candidate, it looks as if 2019 and 2024 are leaner pickings where they had to look to people on the fringe to find extreme views.
Obviously racism still exists in today’s society, but it has gone underground. People with these views know that they are not supposed to voice them. The easiest way to get them to reveal themselves is to convince them they are talking to someone who shares their views and that it is safe to ‘open up’.
It seems reasonably likely that the journalists responsible might use actors with undercover experience like Andrew Parker to create this impression of a safe space, I do wonder if somehow the acting found its way into the story to make it more interesting.
So they've just been exposed? Good on channel 4 then.The 2015 example exposed a racist candidate, it looks as if 2019 and 2024 are leaner pickings where they had to look to people on the fringe to find extreme views.
Obviously racism still exists in today’s society, but it has gone underground. People with these views know that they are not supposed to voice them. The easiest way to get them to reveal themselves is to convince them they are talking to someone who shares their views and that it is safe to ‘open up’.
It seems reasonably likely that the journalists responsible might use actors with undercover experience like Andrew Parker to create this impression of a safe space, I do wonder if somehow the acting found its way into the story to make it more interesting.
valiant said:
No they haven’t. It’s just the media are finally holding them to the same scrutiny as the other parties.
Reform and Farage have had a very easy ride since they formed. They were seen as a novelty, a disruption amd given far more airtime than their polling numbers merited at the time.
Now that polling numbers have climbed and Farage decided to stand, a more critical look has been taken. So we see their fantasy manifesto torn to shreds over its costing and implementation, we see remarks Farage made in the past questioned and him asked to explain them. We see the media hold his own party to account for the failings of some of its supporters and candidates and as we saw on QT the other night, pushed on policy (like the Marines comment) where he was asked to explain in detail how he would achieve his goals.
This is nothing more than what’s asked of the other parties and if Reform wants to be seen as a major force in British politics then it must be able to stand up and explain itself and not get into a hissy fit and scream “unfair” when a question or audience appear hostile.
If Reform wants to be seen more than just a fringe party then it seriously needs to get its s
t together. It lacks professionalism, organisation and detail. Now that the spotlight is on them to a greater degree, it has to able to handle proper scrutiny.
This is obviously true. However, when Farage's fantasy worldview - let's use the marines to return people to France etc. comes under the scrutiny it merits, the instant reaction within the Reform and Farage have had a very easy ride since they formed. They were seen as a novelty, a disruption amd given far more airtime than their polling numbers merited at the time.
Now that polling numbers have climbed and Farage decided to stand, a more critical look has been taken. So we see their fantasy manifesto torn to shreds over its costing and implementation, we see remarks Farage made in the past questioned and him asked to explain them. We see the media hold his own party to account for the failings of some of its supporters and candidates and as we saw on QT the other night, pushed on policy (like the Marines comment) where he was asked to explain in detail how he would achieve his goals.
This is nothing more than what’s asked of the other parties and if Reform wants to be seen as a major force in British politics then it must be able to stand up and explain itself and not get into a hissy fit and scream “unfair” when a question or audience appear hostile.
If Reform wants to be seen more than just a fringe party then it seriously needs to get its s
t together. It lacks professionalism, organisation and detail. Now that the spotlight is on them to a greater degree, it has to able to handle proper scrutiny.m3jappa said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said:m3jappa said:
The worlds gone fking bananas tbh.
Funnily enough the word you used to describe travellers tends to get censored on here I think you just spelt it wrong so I won't quote the whole post.king bananas tbh. I'm going to guess that the chap calling Sunak the P word probably didn't base what he said off much more than skin colour.
You can question Islamic values just as you can question Christian or any other values but if you do it using the language we've seen used people might think there's a little more to it than simply questioning values.
The world hasn't gone bananas just because people can't say exactly what they think without consequences.
I find it strange to label that racist when for example no one seems to question or have any issue with the sikhs or hindus who are by and large not white.
Calling someone a derogatory term based on their skin colour is racist and there is no need for it because that is genuinely disliking someone because of their colour or where they are from which is simply odd imo.
MDMetal said:
Equally trying to claim Farage is somehow Putin's chum because he wisely pointed out that giving a madman with a giant arm a reason to go to war might not be the best plan is somewhat akin to suggesting that telling your friend not to piss in the school bullys chips somehow makes him the bullys bestest chum
Brilliant ! 
Anyone who can't see this is being deliberately stupid.
Killboy said:
Elysium said:
Good joke, but actually quite a good question as well.
The 2015 example exposed a racist candidate, it looks as if 2019 and 2024 are leaner pickings where they had to look to people on the fringe to find extreme views.
Obviously racism still exists in today’s society, but it has gone underground. People with these views know that they are not supposed to voice them. The easiest way to get them to reveal themselves is to convince them they are talking to someone who shares their views and that it is safe to ‘open up’.
It seems reasonably likely that the journalists responsible might use actors with undercover experience like Andrew Parker to create this impression of a safe space, I do wonder if somehow the acting found its way into the story to make it more interesting.
So they've just been exposed? Good on channel 4 then.The 2015 example exposed a racist candidate, it looks as if 2019 and 2024 are leaner pickings where they had to look to people on the fringe to find extreme views.
Obviously racism still exists in today’s society, but it has gone underground. People with these views know that they are not supposed to voice them. The easiest way to get them to reveal themselves is to convince them they are talking to someone who shares their views and that it is safe to ‘open up’.
It seems reasonably likely that the journalists responsible might use actors with undercover experience like Andrew Parker to create this impression of a safe space, I do wonder if somehow the acting found its way into the story to make it more interesting.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: People are carrying on as if the actor chap is the only issue here.
Take him out of things.
There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.
Plus we have Farage saying that the electorate should still vite for 3 candidates who are no longer Reform candidates in order to show support for Reform.Take him out of things.
There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.
So encouraging people to vote for people with obnoxious views in order to show support for a party that doesn't have obnoxious views.....
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: People are carrying on as if the actor chap is the only issue here.
Take him out of things.
There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.
Because it’s a crutch to hang onto that means that everything else can’t be questioned.Take him out of things.
There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.
Besides, aren’t C4 standing by their story? All I’ve seen is Reform and some amateur armchair sleuths putting 2+2 together and making their up answers from that.
It will all come out in the end no doubt and if C4 have been duped or conspired in some funny business then they’ll have to answer for that themselves but as there’s been no definitive answer yet yelling ‘conspiracy’ at this stage is very Trumpian.
biggbn said:
Why I said 'rarely gonna vote labour' Deej. I agree there is an overlap as you describe but in comparison to the disenfranchised Tories its much smaller
Voting behaviour is a complex issue, the Tory party started their ‘blue collar Conservative’ movement over ten years ago, presumably as recognition of an old phenomenon once labelled the ‘working class Tories’. I guess Labour has the ‘Champagne Socialists’, ultimately it’s people who support a party that doesn’t actually support them I think the blue collar Conservatives are always those more likely to vote Reform than Labour, so while Labour will lose votes to Reform, the Tories will lose more. Some of the racist stuff flying around is OTT, all parties have an issue as does society at large, but Reform is a haven for them, which is why the analysis shows something like 68%. Suck it up.
OddCat said:
MDMetal said:
Equally trying to claim Farage is somehow Putin's chum because he wisely pointed out that giving a madman with a giant arm a reason to go to war might not be the best plan is somewhat akin to suggesting that telling your friend not to piss in the school bullys chips somehow makes him the bullys bestest chum
Brilliant ! Anyone who can't see this is being deliberately stupid.
I'd have thought he'd be keen on sovereign nations going their own way...
OddCat said:
MDMetal said:
Equally trying to claim Farage is somehow Putin's chum because he wisely pointed out that giving a madman with a giant arm a reason to go to war might not be the best plan is somewhat akin to suggesting that telling your friend not to piss in the school bullys chips somehow makes him the bullys bestest chum
Brilliant ! Anyone who can't see this is being deliberately stupid.
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: People are carrying on as if the actor chap is the only issue here.
Take him out of things.
There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.
I agree, but it’s also striking that this tactic has been used by the same people against the same political group over three elections. Thats relatively harmless when they are a fringe party, but more questionable if Reform are potentially going to achieve 15-20% of the boat. Take him out of things.
There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.
If this sort of thing is going to happen there needs to be a similar expose into the main parties, who I am sure also have some dodgy characters on the fringes.
Many people (including you it seems) are keen to dismiss Reform as a mass collective of racist bigots. But that gets rather more difficult when the two main parties agree with them on immigration and the Conservatives agree with them on gender issues.
Tonberry said:
The desire for a reduction in immigration isn't inherently racist. There are many reasons (imagined or otherwise) why someone may want less people entering a country.
But taking issue with immigration based on the skin colour of those arriving is racist.
Racism isn't new, and we know that there are a lot of people in this country who despise ethnic minorities.
Nothing complex about it.
This cuts both ways though But taking issue with immigration based on the skin colour of those arriving is racist.
Racism isn't new, and we know that there are a lot of people in this country who despise ethnic minorities.
Nothing complex about it.
People have genuine concerns about unfettered arrivals into the UK
The people arriving are largely BME /global majority / dark (delete as appropriate)
Political critics /opponents jump on this: "oh look, you're anti BME /global majority/ dark people, you are therefore racist"
Totally sidestepping any actual intercourse on the issue. We saw this all through the Brexit campaign, and it is still very regularly done in the media.
To the point you won't even see reference to parties being "right wing" any more - it's always "far right", and now "fascist" because some reform candidates had followed a bloke on Facebook linked to the national front.
To address the thread title - reform is highlighting divisions in our country. Not just political divisions- that is just how it manifests. Actual division in ideology and views on the best way forward.
Personally I can't stand farage - he stokes division and is to me a pied piper for the stupid and dim witted.
For instance I caught part of a radio phone in: left wing vs right wing - the left wing caller was way more intellectual and coherent. All the right winger could say was "the country's full", and "enough is enough" with no real substance behind those sound bites he'd heard down the pub.
However, the only warning is just look at France - will we be there in a decade or so more?
Elysium said:
I agree, but it’s also striking that this tactic has been used by the same people against the same political group over three elections. Thats relatively harmless when they are a fringe party, but more questionable if Reform are potentially going to achieve 15-20% of the boat.
If this sort of thing is going to happen there needs to be a similar expose into the main parties, who I am sure also have some dodgy characters on the fringes.
Many people (including you it seems) are keen to dismiss Reform as a mass collective of racist bigots. But that gets rather more difficult when the two main parties agree with them on immigration and the Conservatives agree with them on gender issues.
I think you're wilfully conflating the policy with the rhetoric used.If this sort of thing is going to happen there needs to be a similar expose into the main parties, who I am sure also have some dodgy characters on the fringes.
Many people (including you it seems) are keen to dismiss Reform as a mass collective of racist bigots. But that gets rather more difficult when the two main parties agree with them on immigration and the Conservatives agree with them on gender issues.
I don't have a problem with a policy of "stop the boats".
I do have a problem with the rhetoric some people use about doing so.
I don't have a problem with people thinking the Police shouldn't have Pride flags on their cars.
I do have a problem with the filth Farage's event organiser used about it.
A respectful difference of opinion is not the same as "P word" this and "nonces" that.
bad company said:
I’m still undecided and may elect to spoil my ballot paper:-
I’m a natural and long term Conservative voter and ex party member. I generally approve of their policies but they failed to deliver on previous promises. Also some terrible leadership over the years. I’m also very dissatisfied with the local conservative candidate James Cleverly.
Labour. The policies appear ok at first glance but very worried about taxes they haven’t mentioned and could increase. Also worried about likely increased union power and loony left influence once they’re in power. Kier Starmer seems bland and uninspiring.
Lib/Dem. They’ve said they’d raise taxes which is at least honest. Ed Davey comes across as a clown to me. What on earth is he doing being photographed falling into the water. Does he really think that’ll win him votes? Also they clearly want to re join the EU. That’s a big no from me.
Reform. Some good policies imo but are they properly costed? I like Nigel Farage though, he and the party have been very badly treated by the BBC. The very biased Question Time audience being a clear example. I’m a bit put off by the numbers of racist supporters.
Green. Unelectable imo though they have my gratitude and respect for influencing the major parties to adopt some green policies.
Reform's policy on stopping the boats appears to involve using the Royal Marines to drop them back on French beaches? At least that was Farage's explanation of how it might work.I’m a natural and long term Conservative voter and ex party member. I generally approve of their policies but they failed to deliver on previous promises. Also some terrible leadership over the years. I’m also very dissatisfied with the local conservative candidate James Cleverly.
Labour. The policies appear ok at first glance but very worried about taxes they haven’t mentioned and could increase. Also worried about likely increased union power and loony left influence once they’re in power. Kier Starmer seems bland and uninspiring.
Lib/Dem. They’ve said they’d raise taxes which is at least honest. Ed Davey comes across as a clown to me. What on earth is he doing being photographed falling into the water. Does he really think that’ll win him votes? Also they clearly want to re join the EU. That’s a big no from me.
Reform. Some good policies imo but are they properly costed? I like Nigel Farage though, he and the party have been very badly treated by the BBC. The very biased Question Time audience being a clear example. I’m a bit put off by the numbers of racist supporters.
Green. Unelectable imo though they have my gratitude and respect for influencing the major parties to adopt some green policies.
Is that one of their good policies?
markh1973 said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: People are carrying on as if the actor chap is the only issue here.
Take him out of things.
There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.
Plus we have Farage saying that the electorate should still vite for 3 candidates who are no longer Reform candidates in order to show support for Reform.Take him out of things.
There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.
So encouraging people to vote for people with obnoxious views in order to show support for a party that doesn't have obnoxious views.....
markh1973 said:
Plus we have Farage saying that the electorate should still vite for 3 candidates who are no longer Reform candidates in order to show support for Reform.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c727xz2kkgjoElysium said:
bhstewie said:
hstewie said: People are carrying on as if the actor chap is the only issue here.
Take him out of things.
There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.
I agree, but it’s also striking that this tactic has been used by the same people against the same political group over three elections. Thats relatively harmless when they are a fringe party, but more questionable if Reform are potentially going to achieve 15-20% of the boat. Take him out of things.
There's plenty of other filth both in that video and widely reported.
If this sort of thing is going to happen there needs to be a similar expose into the main parties, who I am sure also have some dodgy characters on the fringes.
Many people (including you it seems) are keen to dismiss Reform as a mass collective of racist bigots. But that gets rather more difficult when the two main parties agree with them on immigration and the Conservatives agree with them on gender issues.
It's quite hard to challenge the view that Reform have more than their fair share of bigots and racists when stories like this keep appearing - 2 candidates found to be posting anti-Semitic content. https://news.sky.com/story/reform-candidates-accus...
valiant said:
It will all come out in the end no doubt and if C4 have been duped or conspired in some funny business then they’ll have to answer for that themselves but as there’s been no definitive answer yet yelling ‘conspiracy’ at this stage is very Trumpian.
Bit late if the truth emerges post election and people have voted on the basis of statements made by an actor who was trying to discredit Reform. Statements which were headline news for quite some time. Also not sure it is "Trumpian" to find it suspicious that an actor appearing in the Channel documentary is not speaking with his true speaking voice.
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