£1.4bn of Covid PPE Destroyed

[Mr Penguin]

What was the approval chain for these contracts?

[Sway]

Olivera said:

Sway said:

You're guessing on the profit.

At the time, it was a global scramble - and Chinese government pressure on internal supply for these things.

Having those contacts and relationships, and being able to organise and sort over a billion units of PPE, is simply incredible. Everyone was willing to pay whatever it took to secure it - these guys did for the UK.

Under a quid a piece landed and delivered. That's impressive.

Please name a single political party on the planet that wouldn't have signed off that contract at the time if they were in charge.

Indeed, I'm entirely guessing on the profit because thus far it's not been publicly disclosed. The small company owners blew the best part of £100m on a Caribbean Villa, several other mansions, an equestrian centre, and various other purchases mentioned in the tabloids. They also want to build 411 (!) stables for themselves: https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/ppe... I would love for more digging to be done on this deal.

So what? Good for them!

Not that small a company with pre-covid profits of £800k...

What exactly do you want looking into? They won a contract, delivered fully, no hints of improper relationships with ministers, etc.

[Olivera]

Sway said:

So what? Good for them!

Not that small a company with pre-covid profits of £800k...

What exactly do you want looking into? They won a contract, delivered fully, no hints of improper relationships with ministers, etc.

The question is: did taxpayers get value for money? Given these middlemen legally skimmed off absolutely colossal sums of cash, I suspect not. So I'd like some investigation into the entire procurement process, especially as there was a 'VIP' lane also operating.

[98elise]

Sway said:

Olivera said:

Sway said:

You're guessing on the profit.

At the time, it was a global scramble - and Chinese government pressure on internal supply for these things.

Having those contacts and relationships, and being able to organise and sort over a billion units of PPE, is simply incredible. Everyone was willing to pay whatever it took to secure it - these guys did for the UK.

Under a quid a piece landed and delivered. That's impressive.

Please name a single political party on the planet that wouldn't have signed off that contract at the time if they were in charge.

Indeed, I'm entirely guessing on the profit because thus far it's not been publicly disclosed. The small company owners blew the best part of £100m on a Caribbean Villa, several other mansions, an equestrian centre, and various other purchases mentioned in the tabloids. They also want to build 411 (!) stables for themselves: https://www.thetimes.com/uk/healthcare/article/ppe... I would love for more digging to be done on this deal.

So what? Good for them!

Not that small a company with pre-covid profits of £800k...

What exactly do you want looking into? They won a contract, delivered fully, no hints of improper relationships with ministers, etc.

And the BBC was very clear all taxes due were paid and the company has done nothing wrong!

[Sway]

Olivera said:

Sway said:

So what? Good for them!

Not that small a company with pre-covid profits of £800k...

What exactly do you want looking into? They won a contract, delivered fully, no hints of improper relationships with ministers, etc.

The question is: did taxpayers get value for money? Given these middlemen legally skimmed off absolutely colossal sums of cash, I suspect not. So I'd like some investigation into the entire procurement process, especially as there was a 'VIP' lane also operating.

There is no such thing as 'value for money' in this sort of scenario.

You want it, so does everyone else. So, if you can secure it, you pay what is asked. There's as much (in fact more!) value in the ability to supply, as there is the actual item.

Frankly, I'm fking glad there was a Mr and Mrs Jones in the UK capable of doing so. I'll say it again - over one and a half billion bits of kit. I'm quite happy they're now living the life of Reilly, as if it wasn't them, it'd have been a Mr and Mrs Yank, or Mr and Mrs Deutsche.

[98elise]

ChocolateFrog said:

Makes you wonder what you'd do in their situation.

I don't think my morals would let me walk away with 100's of millions in profit off the back of a few phone calls.

But who knows.

When there's an uprising against millionaires, billionaires and trillionares i'll be near the front.

Why didn’t you make those phone calls at the time?

You're free to set up your own company and make millions. I guess its just easier to feel you've been wronged and the answer is to rise up and take it by force.

[gotoPzero]

I don't think people understand the sums involved.

We may as well have just gone on Alibaba and ordered it and got that cushty +1,000,000 unit order discount...

Seriously though the bit that p*sses me off the most is the fact this has all just been left in a field to rot.

You have governments b*tching over HS2 costs but they are throwing billions around like its chump change.

[isaldiri]

Olivera said:

The question is: did taxpayers get value for money? Given these middlemen legally skimmed off absolutely colossal sums of cash, I suspect not. So I'd like some investigation into the entire procurement process, especially as there was a 'VIP' lane also operating.

No they didn't get value for money but so what? the government at the time (and everyone else) was desperately scrabbling to secure those things and were willing to pay to do so. Someone was able to do that. Good for them.

[Wacky Racer]

It's easy to criticise any decision about anything in hindsight, especially for political gain.

I doubt whether Labour would have done anything differently.

Surely some stuff could be stockpiled for possible future use like Green Goddesses.

[Olivera]

isaldiri said:

No they didn't get value for money but so what? the government at the time (and everyone else) was desperately scrabbling to secure those things and were willing to pay to do so. Someone was able to do that. Good for them.

So what? We could have tried dealing direct with the manufacturers in China and saved a billion quid?

Even in the midst of Covid there must have been some oversight and procurement rules in place for a multi billion pound deal, at least one would hope. Unless there was just a ministerial free for all (VIP contracts), incompetence and corruption on a significant scale.

[isaldiri]

Olivera said:

So what? We could have tried dealing direct with the manufacturers in China and saved a billion quid?

Even in the midst of Covid there must have been some oversight and procurement rules in place for a multi billion pound deal, at least one would hope. Unless there was just a ministerial free for all (VIP contracts), incompetence and corruption on a significant scale.

You would then also have got it way after everyone else. Which kind of defeats the point of joining the mad scramble for the bloody things in the first place don't you think? the rather problematic issue was not getting PPE at some point but getting it like..... now.

[Sway]

Olivera said:

isaldiri said:

No they didn't get value for money but so what? the government at the time (and everyone else) was desperately scrabbling to secure those things and were willing to pay to do so. Someone was able to do that. Good for them.

So what? We could have tried dealing direct with the manufacturers in China and saved a billion quid?

Even in the midst of Covid there must have been some oversight and procurement rules in place for a multi billion pound deal, at least one would hope. Unless there was just a ministerial free for all (VIP contracts), incompetence and corruption on a significant scale.

Don't be so naive. Phones and emails were going mental - why would they bother negotiating with someone new, when they had a hundred other countries all fighting for the same stuff?

Crikey, even we got involved, due to some of the skills we had in a completely different industry. Everything was about breaking through the sheer volume of demands, and utilising existing networks to make stuff happen.

I know of some things that happened logistically in the early days relating to PPE. Anyone who could manage to get stuff secured, available for transport, transported and landed, whilst in spec and at staggering volume was worth their weight in gold.

[Olivera]

Sway said:

Don't be so naive. Phones and emails were going mental - why would they bother negotiating with someone new, when they had a hundred other countries all fighting for the same stuff?

Crikey, even we got involved, due to some of the skills we had in a completely different industry. Everything was about breaking through the sheer volume of demands, and utilising existing networks to make stuff happen.

I know of some things that happened logistically in the early days relating to PPE. Anyone who could manage to get stuff secured, available for transport, transported and landed, whilst in spec and at staggering volume was worth their weight in gold.

All anecdotal waffle. There's absolutely no harm in investigating after the fact whether the taxpayer got value for money, and to verify if basic procurement rules were followed.

[randlemarcus]

Olivera said:

All anecdotal waffle. There's absolutely no harm in investigating after the fact whether the taxpayer got value for money, and to verify if basic procurement rules were followed.

I'd be really really happy for this to be looked at closely. Less for the procurement - as far as I can see, an existing PPE supplier bid on a much much larger contract, won it, and delivered to contract with perfectly in spec goods, but more for the fact the somehow, we managed to not use over a billion chuffing pounds worth of NHS spec PPE, in any way whatsoever. No telling trusts to use it before buying their own, no offering it cheap to the care sector, no selling it in bulk , just "someone elses problem" pennies on the pound auctions, and unimaginable waste.

[Murph7355]

Blue62 said:

....
Apparently the money spunked could’ve paid the salaries of 37000 nurses, or probably have gone a long way towards avoiding the junior doctor’s strike.

Until next year.

[Murph7355]

Jasandjules said:

We wasted 400 billion on this. Funny how the Govt are more concerned about benefit fraud than billionaire fraud.

No we didn't.

[Murph7355]

Sway said:

So what? Good for them!

Not that small a company with pre-covid profits of £800k...

What exactly do you want looking into? They won a contract, delivered fully, no hints of improper relationships with ministers, etc.

Why he cannot afford a villa, stables etc.

[Murph7355]

Olivera said:

All anecdotal waffle. There's absolutely no harm in investigating after the fact whether the taxpayer got value for money, and to verify if basic procurement rules were followed.

As opposed to your own posts which aren't "waffle".

There is a st ton of info out there about the processes etc. Have you been living under a rock?

You also aren't listening. How are you going to assess value on these products? Based on your ability to click a button on Amazon today? Or in the absolute middle of a st frenzy spun up by the media and morons in the electorate and govt?

[pavarotti1980]

Olivera said:

So what? We could have tried dealing direct with the manufacturers in China and saved a billion quid?

Even in the midst of Covid there must have been some oversight and procurement rules in place for a multi billion pound deal, at least one would hope. Unless there was just a ministerial free for all (VIP contracts), incompetence and corruption on a significant scale.

This company already had a PPE contract. This was simply a request to increase the volumes outside of contracted amounts

[alangla]

Is the real question here more around how NHS stock mismanagement has caused so much apparently decent kit to go out of date while they’re presumably still buying more?