Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?

[Killboy]

Elysium said:

Your vote and your decision.

But what if you believe the conservatives have already lost?

Would you vote for Labour or the Lib Dems knowing they don’t remotely represent you?

Is there another fringe candidate that you want to support?

Would you not vote at all?

Or would you vote for Reform to send a message to the Conservatives about what you want them to become?

Do reform remotely represent you?

[bitchstewie]

Surprised so many people seem to want the Conservatives to become a bunch of fascist following Hitler praising Putin apologists but I suppose it takes all sorts.

[bad company]

Elysium said:

bad company said:

Elysium said:

Betrayal is a powerful force in politics. It’s why the Lib Dem’s were cast into oblivion after they sold their souls to help the Conservatives form a govt in 2010.

Johnson betrayed the people who voted for him in 2019. Not just with the £200k freebie makeover of his flat, or the extraordinarily expensive takeaways from Daylesford Organics. It wasn’t the fact the ‘oven ready deal’ vanished, or the lockdowns, or the hypocrisy of Number 10 breaching its own dystopian laws. The real betrayal was a complete failure to do anything whatsoever that represented the views of Conservative voters.

After knifing Johnson in the back and ‘offing’ Liz Truss, Rishi finally got the keys to the kingdom. Then promptly did nothing, leaving us in financial and economic decline, with the highest taxation for a generation and almost nothing to show for it.

They must be punished and the people that particularly want to punish them will not vote for Starmers Labour.

I’m a natural conservative voter and former party member. Do I join in punishing them now by voting Reform or stick with the conservatives to keep out the inevitable disaster of a big majority labour government?

Your vote and your decision.

But what if you believe the conservatives have already lost?

Would you vote for Labour or the Lib Dems knowing they don’t remotely represent you?

Is there another fringe candidate that you want to support?

Would you not vote at all?

Or would you vote for Reform to send a message to the Conservatives about what you want them to become?

That pretty well sums up my situation. It’s conservative, reform or spoil the ballot paper.

It doesn’t help that I have no respect for my conservative MP. James Cleverly is a ‘yes man’ imo who I don’t think has ever voted against the government or even abstained. He even voted for Theresa May’s awful Brexit deal.

[President Merkin]

Killboy said:

Do reform remotely represent you?

I asked this on the previous page. Telling that the sole response it garnered was from the resident troll.

President Merkin said:

Jordie Barretts sock said:

^^^^^^ is bang on the money.

what is it though? Saying the Tories didn't serve their voters without articulating what that should have been isn't illuminating. Also begs the question what is it you are agreeing with? But let's leave that for now.

Lot of guys in here making eliptical references to their disappointment with the Tories losing sight of their values without elucidating what those values are, despite prompting. And I suspect that is because they know their version of Conservative values is more than a little bit outré, ergo a long running Reform thread bending over backwards to ignore the daily diet of right wing fashies outed in the press.

Yesterday, the Putin frotting guy in Salisbury, this morning, the Southend mentalist who's mates with the New British Union Hitler cosplaly guy. Tomorrow, who knows?

[S600BSB]

bhstewie said:

Surprised so many people seem to want the Conservatives to become a bunch of fascist following Hitler praising Putin apologists but I suppose it takes all sorts.

One of the features of this election - if the polls are correct - may be that the loony wing of the tories is largely wiped out. It’s likely that the remaining 100 Tory MPs (or whatever) would come from the one nation, decent side. So this discussion about whether they return to the centre or lurch further to the right may be taken out of their hands. Let’s hope so anyway.

[turbobloke]

bhstewie said:

Surprised so many people seem to want the Conservatives to become a bunch of fascist following Hitler praising Putin apologists but I suppose it takes all sorts.

How many people did you survey to come up with that horlicks bingo?

[119]

turbobloke said:

bhstewie said:

Surprised so many people seem to want the Conservatives to become a bunch of fascist following Hitler praising Putin apologists but I suppose it takes all sorts.

How many people did you survey to come up with that horlicks bingo?

He’s had enough practice to be fair.

[768]

President Merkin said:

Lot of guys in here making eliptical references to their disappointment with the Tories losing sight of their values without elucidating what those values are, despite prompting. And I suspect that is because they know their version of Conservative values is more than a little bit outré, ergo a long running Reform thread bending over backwards to ignore the daily diet of right wing fashies outed in the press.

Here's some fodder for your next five minute argument then. Lower taxes, personal responsibility favoured over state interference, pro-business, national security, order and hierarchy.

[President Merkin]

Hierarchy? Do tell.

[bitchstewie]

turbobloke said:

bhstewie said:

Surprised so many people seem to want the Conservatives to become a bunch of fascist following Hitler praising Putin apologists but I suppose it takes all sorts.

How many people did you survey to come up with that horlicks bingo?

I didn't.

I just read the news and don't ignore uncomfortable truths about the views of the candidates I'm endorsing.

[turbobloke]

bhstewie said:

turbobloke said:

bhstewie said:

Surprised so many people seem to want the Conservatives to become a bunch of fascist following Hitler praising Putin apologists but I suppose it takes all sorts.

How many people did you survey to come up with that horlicks bingo?

I didn't.

I just read the news and don't ignore uncomfortable truths about the views of the candidates I'm endorsing.

Which news surveyed how many people and what was the specific wording on the issue of fascism plus apologism and how were Hitler and Putin included exactly? Your post included those words plus 'so many people'.

It can't be made up, seeing yet more fantasy fiction name calling in this context is unlikely after all.

[768]

President Merkin said:

Hierarchy? Do tell.

Left wing views tend towards social equality, everyone's the same, should have equal access, equal pay, towards anarchy at the extreme. Right wing views tend to acknowledge differences, reward pay and responsibility based on capitalistic standards of work value. They consider that Shadow Education Secretaries are better when they've had an education. At the extreme end you'd find class based systems and an Aryan master race.

[Vanden Saab]

119 said:

turbobloke said:

bhstewie said:

Surprised so many people seem to want the Conservatives to become a bunch of fascist following Hitler praising Putin apologists but I suppose it takes all sorts.

How many people did you survey to come up with that horlicks bingo?

He’s had enough practice to be fair.

More balanced commenting from Stewie. You can see the froth rising with every new opinion poll.

[oyster]

Elysium said:

bad company said:

Elysium said:

Betrayal is a powerful force in politics. It’s why the Lib Dem’s were cast into oblivion after they sold their souls to help the Conservatives form a govt in 2010.

Johnson betrayed the people who voted for him in 2019. Not just with the £200k freebie makeover of his flat, or the extraordinarily expensive takeaways from Daylesford Organics. It wasn’t the fact the ‘oven ready deal’ vanished, or the lockdowns, or the hypocrisy of Number 10 breaching its own dystopian laws. The real betrayal was a complete failure to do anything whatsoever that represented the views of Conservative voters.

After knifing Johnson in the back and ‘offing’ Liz Truss, Rishi finally got the keys to the kingdom. Then promptly did nothing, leaving us in financial and economic decline, with the highest taxation for a generation and almost nothing to show for it.

They must be punished and the people that particularly want to punish them will not vote for Starmers Labour.

I’m a natural conservative voter and former party member. Do I join in punishing them now by voting Reform or stick with the conservatives to keep out the inevitable disaster of a big majority labour government?

Your vote and your decision.

But what if you believe the conservatives have already lost?

Would you vote for Labour or the Lib Dems knowing they don’t remotely represent you?

Is there another fringe candidate that you want to support?

Would you not vote at all?

Or would you vote for Reform to send a message to the Conservatives about what you want them to become?

I’m a former Tory party member, indeed previous campaigner at one time.

On the other side of the ‘broad church’ though. There’s little in Reform that looks entrepreneurial or ambitious.

Labour look the most pro-business, pro-City, pro-enterprise party to me right now.

Reform and Conservatives this election look to be squabbling over a minority 20%-25% of the electorate. Not enough to gain power.

[wildoliver]

bhstewie said:

Another failure by the vetting company obviously.

To be honest this nasty little man's the perfect face for reform. Promise everything knowing you can deliver nothing. If he came face to face with a migrant boat he would be more likely to run the other way than anything else.

[skwdenyer]

768 said:

President Merkin said:

Lot of guys in here making eliptical references to their disappointment with the Tories losing sight of their values without elucidating what those values are, despite prompting. And I suspect that is because they know their version of Conservative values is more than a little bit outré, ergo a long running Reform thread bending over backwards to ignore the daily diet of right wing fashies outed in the press.

Here's some fodder for your next five minute argument then. Lower taxes, personal responsibility favoured over state interference, pro-business, national security, order and hierarchy.

Great. That only works if “personal responsibility” means no state social care, pension, healthcare, etc. And even then, if you want to match say US tax levels, you’d need to increase them.

People are in la la land if they think we can have a functioning modern state and far lower taxes.

[Elysium]

Killboy said:

Elysium said:

Your vote and your decision.

But what if you believe the conservatives have already lost?

Would you vote for Labour or the Lib Dems knowing they don’t remotely represent you?

Is there another fringe candidate that you want to support?

Would you not vote at all?

Or would you vote for Reform to send a message to the Conservatives about what you want them to become?

Do reform remotely represent you?

Yes and no.

I don’t dislike Farage as an individual because he is at least consistent in his beliefs. However he has been far too willing to accept racism and bigotry from his supporters in the past, which I cannot easily forgive.

That said, I do find myself in broad agreement with their approach to a number of key issues where the main parties offer no real choice. I think we do need to rethink our approach to net zero, which has become ideological rather than rational. I am not particularly interested in immigration but we need to do something about it. I think we should try and end the perpetual increases in tax. And I rather like their suggestion that those who choose to pay for private education or healthcare should get a tax rebate instead of a penalty.

My situation is different though as I have only ever voted for Labour. I won’t vote for them now as I cannot forgive Starmer for failing to offer any reasonable opposition during COVID.

I won’t vote Conservative as they are the worst version of themselves. I won’t vote Lib Dem because they betrayed us by forming a coalition with the Tories.

Although I won’t vote for Reform I do at least welcome the fact that they are trying to change things.

At this point I will either vote for an independent or not vote at all.

[Hill92]

Elysium said:

Well who would have thought it. Turns out Labour are going to spend “hundreds of billions” on net~zero.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/26/la...

"The vast majority of the power system is owned by the private sector. So it will be private capital that will have to go into upgrading infrastructure. They tell us they’ve got the money to do that but they said they can’t spend it for other reasons: for things like planning and supply chain, regulation, that type of stuff."

Why are Reform and the Tories trying to get in the way of the private sector? Are they communists?

[Elysium]

Hill92 said:

Elysium said:

Well who would have thought it. Turns out Labour are going to spend “hundreds of billions” on net~zero.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/06/26/la...

"The vast majority of the power system is owned by the private sector. So it will be private capital that will have to go into upgrading infrastructure. They tell us they’ve got the money to do that but they said they can’t spend it for other reasons: for things like planning and supply chain, regulation, that type of stuff."

Why are Reform and the Tories trying to get in the way of the private sector? Are they communists?

There is no shortage of private sector money for infrastructure investment. The issues are mostly regulatory and organisational.

Labours approach is going to be ruinously expensive because they are trying to go faster than everybody involved thinks is remotely possible.

A net zero grid by 2030 is cloud cuckoo land stuff.

[JagLover]

Hill92 said:

"The vast majority of the power system is owned by the private sector. So it will be private capital that will have to go into upgrading infrastructure. They tell us they’ve got the money to do that but they said they can’t spend it for other reasons: for things like planning and supply chain, regulation, that type of stuff."

Why are Reform and the Tories trying to get in the way of the private sector? Are they communists?

The UK resident will pay the costs regardless. If a private company is paying for it then they will want a commercial return on their investment. So your starting point is that the consumer pays, but then, as we saw with the energy price spike, the public will not accept costs at this level, so then the taxpayer pays a share as well.