Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?
Discussion
don'tbesilly said:
Labour will just sign up to the EU immigration pact, so instead of anything between 30-40k arrivals across the Channel, it will be 100,000+ legally + 100’s/1000’s still arriving across the channel after dodging the half ar*ed attempts to be caught by the gendarmes who are waving them off on the beaches.
Current inward uk immigration is what, 1 million or more p.a.?So that'd be about 15% of what it currently is then.
Voting labour now, dbs?
M.
don'tbesilly said:
Vanden Saab said:
Vasco said:
Dave200 said:
I find it curious that there's so much (misplaced) emphasis on "small boats" from Reform supporters, but none of them seem willing to back Labour who pledge to stop them.
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-opposition-lea...
Of course Labour are also planning to deal with the actual immigration problems, rather than just standing on a cliff and pointing at the boats as evidence of a broken immigration system.
So, the big pledge from Starmer to the small boats issue is to work with our foreign colleagues. How is that different to the current arrangement ?https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-opposition-lea...
Of course Labour are also planning to deal with the actual immigration problems, rather than just standing on a cliff and pointing at the boats as evidence of a broken immigration system.
You only have to look at the resources the EU has and their abject failure to do anything about the smugglers to understand that.
1) Boost Britain’s skills by joining-up Whitehall systems to spot and tackle skills shortages – so we can fire up skills training rather than look overseas to fill skills gaps, and end the days of sectors languishing on the shortage of skills list without a plan to deal with the problem.
2) Reform the points-based immigration system, bringing down migration. We will instruct the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) to partner with other government agencies to ensure joined-up action to deliver the skills needed for growth, including priority sectors for our industrial strategy. We will work to reduce the need for international recruitment, boost per-capita growth, and ensure quick responses to changes in the labour market.
3) New powers to ban hiring from overseas for employers and recruitment agencies who break employment law. An end to workplace exploitation, where migration is used as a way to undercut the terms and conditions of workers here.
In essence, the above is a more intelligent and well thought-out version of what Reform are proposing with their vague "Freeze Non-Essential Immigration" and "Employer Immigration Tax" policies. Farage was challenged on the detail of this a couple of weeks back on BBC R4, and couldn't actually tell anyone what "Essential Immigration" was in practice.
Reform also make "small boats" the second bullet point in their 7-point plan, and their only detail as to how they plan to achieve this is the frankly ludicrous idea of leaving the ECHR.
Labour, on the other hand, have actually given this some thought and separated the issue out from immigration.
"Labour will launch a new Border Security Command with hundreds of new specialist investigators and counter-terror powers to smash criminal gangs and strengthen our borders."
So then, tell me what it is SPECIFICALLY about Reform's policy that you think people should vote for?
Dave200 said:
Where did you read that in their three-point plan? Or is this yet more "Labour bogeyman" wibbling?
1) Boost Britain’s skills by joining-up Whitehall systems to spot and tackle skills shortages – so we can fire up skills training rather than look overseas to fill skills gaps, and end the days of sectors languishing on the shortage of skills list without a plan to deal with the problem.
2) Reform the points-based immigration system, bringing down migration. We will instruct the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) to partner with other government agencies to ensure joined-up action to deliver the skills needed for growth, including priority sectors for our industrial strategy. We will work to reduce the need for international recruitment, boost per-capita growth, and ensure quick responses to changes in the labour market.
3) New powers to ban hiring from overseas for employers and recruitment agencies who break employment law. An end to workplace exploitation, where migration is used as a way to undercut the terms and conditions of workers here.
I think the above is a good start towards ensuring UK is focussed on securing the skills it needs, through a combination of improved training of British young people and selective immigration that brings in those we still need. 1) Boost Britain’s skills by joining-up Whitehall systems to spot and tackle skills shortages – so we can fire up skills training rather than look overseas to fill skills gaps, and end the days of sectors languishing on the shortage of skills list without a plan to deal with the problem.
2) Reform the points-based immigration system, bringing down migration. We will instruct the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) to partner with other government agencies to ensure joined-up action to deliver the skills needed for growth, including priority sectors for our industrial strategy. We will work to reduce the need for international recruitment, boost per-capita growth, and ensure quick responses to changes in the labour market.
3) New powers to ban hiring from overseas for employers and recruitment agencies who break employment law. An end to workplace exploitation, where migration is used as a way to undercut the terms and conditions of workers here.
We still need some unskilled immigration though, so how do we ensure that we get the quantity and quality we want? I see the changes the Tories made post Brexit that allowed the explosion our student visas and then extended to families has lead to the 600k+ we have now, but even if SKS changes those rules, how does the Govt secure the right people?
I'm also entirely unclear how this deals with the issue of the boat people? Granted the numbers in boats is comparatively small but its a problem that needs to be addressed because:
1. Too many people are dying making the trip
2. People are being exploited
3. It's a totem that Reform et al point to
4. The media likes to give us the daily numbers - further fuelling unease
Edited to add: "Labour will launch a new Border Security Command with hundreds of new specialist investigators and counter-terror powers to smash criminal gangs and strengthen our borders." Are the French going to let British investigators operate in France?
andymadmak said:
Dave200 said:
Where did you read that in their three-point plan? Or is this yet more "Labour bogeyman" wibbling?
1) Boost Britain’s skills by joining-up Whitehall systems to spot and tackle skills shortages – so we can fire up skills training rather than look overseas to fill skills gaps, and end the days of sectors languishing on the shortage of skills list without a plan to deal with the problem.
2) Reform the points-based immigration system, bringing down migration. We will instruct the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) to partner with other government agencies to ensure joined-up action to deliver the skills needed for growth, including priority sectors for our industrial strategy. We will work to reduce the need for international recruitment, boost per-capita growth, and ensure quick responses to changes in the labour market.
3) New powers to ban hiring from overseas for employers and recruitment agencies who break employment law. An end to workplace exploitation, where migration is used as a way to undercut the terms and conditions of workers here.
I think the above is a good start towards ensuring UK is focussed on securing the skills it needs, through a combination of improved training of British young people and selective immigration that brings in those we still need. 1) Boost Britain’s skills by joining-up Whitehall systems to spot and tackle skills shortages – so we can fire up skills training rather than look overseas to fill skills gaps, and end the days of sectors languishing on the shortage of skills list without a plan to deal with the problem.
2) Reform the points-based immigration system, bringing down migration. We will instruct the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) to partner with other government agencies to ensure joined-up action to deliver the skills needed for growth, including priority sectors for our industrial strategy. We will work to reduce the need for international recruitment, boost per-capita growth, and ensure quick responses to changes in the labour market.
3) New powers to ban hiring from overseas for employers and recruitment agencies who break employment law. An end to workplace exploitation, where migration is used as a way to undercut the terms and conditions of workers here.
We still need some unskilled immigration though, so how do we ensure that we get the quantity and quality we want? I see the changes the Tories made post Brexit that allowed the explosion our student visas and then extended to families has lead to the 600k+ we have now, but even if SKS changes those rules, how does the Govt secure the right people?
I'm also entirely unclear how this deals with the issue of the boat people? Granted the numbers in boats is comparatively small but its a problem that needs to be addressed because:
1. Too many people are dying making the trip
2. People are being exploited
3. It's a totem that Reform et al point to
4. The media likes to give us the daily numbers - further fuelling unease
Labour's points-based immigration system will deal with the requirement for unskilled labour, I suspect. If they get it right, there will be a quota of unskilled labour allowable via immigration. In stark contrast to Reform's vague "non-essential" strapline.
Dave200 said:
Murph7355 said:
Dave200 said:
Looks like the numbers I found were wrong.
So should I assume you'll be voting Labour, who have a plan to tackle immigration numbers AND the (completely unrelated) problem of "small boats"?
Ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa.So should I assume you'll be voting Labour, who have a plan to tackle immigration numbers AND the (completely unrelated) problem of "small boats"?
Sounds like you seem to be suggesting voting Labour for similar reason to those you tabled earlier.
This is grown-up political discourse at its finest.
Murph7355 said:
Dave200 said:
Murph7355 said:
Dave200 said:
Looks like the numbers I found were wrong.
So should I assume you'll be voting Labour, who have a plan to tackle immigration numbers AND the (completely unrelated) problem of "small boats"?
Ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa.So should I assume you'll be voting Labour, who have a plan to tackle immigration numbers AND the (completely unrelated) problem of "small boats"?
Sounds like you seem to be suggesting voting Labour for similar reason to those you tabled earlier.
This is grown-up political discourse at its finest.
You're voting Reform because you're quite bitter about life, and you like the idea of Nige the Liar "taking back control" and sticking it to the man. It lets you go on the internet and gloat anonymously.
It makes you feel less bitter, albeit briefly.
bad company said:
Dave200 said:
That is unless you're the sort of person who spends too much time listening to Nige the Liar.
You called him a liar before but failed to come up with credible evidence.Try putting any politician’s name into Google followed by the word liar.
"Not credible" and "I don't like this inconvenient truth" aren't the same thing.
Vanden Saab said:
Vasco said:
Dave200 said:
I find it curious that there's so much (misplaced) emphasis on "small boats" from Reform supporters, but none of them seem willing to back Labour who pledge to stop them.
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-opposition-lea...
Of course Labour are also planning to deal with the actual immigration problems, rather than just standing on a cliff and pointing at the boats as evidence of a broken immigration system.
So, the big pledge from Starmer to the small boats issue is to work with our foreign colleagues. How is that different to the current arrangement ?https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-opposition-lea...
Of course Labour are also planning to deal with the actual immigration problems, rather than just standing on a cliff and pointing at the boats as evidence of a broken immigration system.
You only have to look at the resources the EU has and their abject failure to do anything about the smugglers to understand that.
I'm still waiting to hear how the French can manage to not see, or overlook, the hundreds setting out across the Channel. In particular, just how do you buy and transport so many new inflatable boats so that, at times, numerous can be inflated ready for loading hundreds of people - presumably nobody sees them or knows anybody who supplies such specialist equipment ?
Vasco said:
Vanden Saab said:
Vasco said:
Dave200 said:
I find it curious that there's so much (misplaced) emphasis on "small boats" from Reform supporters, but none of them seem willing to back Labour who pledge to stop them.
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-opposition-lea...
Of course Labour are also planning to deal with the actual immigration problems, rather than just standing on a cliff and pointing at the boats as evidence of a broken immigration system.
So, the big pledge from Starmer to the small boats issue is to work with our foreign colleagues. How is that different to the current arrangement ?https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-opposition-lea...
Of course Labour are also planning to deal with the actual immigration problems, rather than just standing on a cliff and pointing at the boats as evidence of a broken immigration system.
You only have to look at the resources the EU has and their abject failure to do anything about the smugglers to understand that.
I'm still waiting to hear how the French can manage to not see, or overlook, the hundreds setting out across the Channel. In particular, just how do you buy and transport so many new inflatable boats so that, at times, numerous can be inflated ready for loading hundreds of people - presumably nobody sees them or knows anybody who supplies such specialist equipment ?
Dave200 said:
I've shared plenty of evidence that you dismissed with "well yeah, but they are all at it" or "well yeah, but that just Twitter man".
"Not credible" and "I don't like this inconvenient truth" aren't the same thing.
You shared a link to a bitter & twisted bloke’s opinions & theories. "Not credible" and "I don't like this inconvenient truth" aren't the same thing.
Dave200 said:
andymadmak said:
Dave200 said:
Where did you read that in their three-point plan? Or is this yet more "Labour bogeyman" wibbling?
1) Boost Britain’s skills by joining-up Whitehall systems to spot and tackle skills shortages – so we can fire up skills training rather than look overseas to fill skills gaps, and end the days of sectors languishing on the shortage of skills list without a plan to deal with the problem.
2) Reform the points-based immigration system, bringing down migration. We will instruct the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) to partner with other government agencies to ensure joined-up action to deliver the skills needed for growth, including priority sectors for our industrial strategy. We will work to reduce the need for international recruitment, boost per-capita growth, and ensure quick responses to changes in the labour market.
3) New powers to ban hiring from overseas for employers and recruitment agencies who break employment law. An end to workplace exploitation, where migration is used as a way to undercut the terms and conditions of workers here.
I think the above is a good start towards ensuring UK is focussed on securing the skills it needs, through a combination of improved training of British young people and selective immigration that brings in those we still need. 1) Boost Britain’s skills by joining-up Whitehall systems to spot and tackle skills shortages – so we can fire up skills training rather than look overseas to fill skills gaps, and end the days of sectors languishing on the shortage of skills list without a plan to deal with the problem.
2) Reform the points-based immigration system, bringing down migration. We will instruct the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) to partner with other government agencies to ensure joined-up action to deliver the skills needed for growth, including priority sectors for our industrial strategy. We will work to reduce the need for international recruitment, boost per-capita growth, and ensure quick responses to changes in the labour market.
3) New powers to ban hiring from overseas for employers and recruitment agencies who break employment law. An end to workplace exploitation, where migration is used as a way to undercut the terms and conditions of workers here.
We still need some unskilled immigration though, so how do we ensure that we get the quantity and quality we want? I see the changes the Tories made post Brexit that allowed the explosion our student visas and then extended to families has lead to the 600k+ we have now, but even if SKS changes those rules, how does the Govt secure the right people?
I'm also entirely unclear how this deals with the issue of the boat people? Granted the numbers in boats is comparatively small but its a problem that needs to be addressed because:
1. Too many people are dying making the trip
2. People are being exploited
3. It's a totem that Reform et al point to
4. The media likes to give us the daily numbers - further fuelling unease
Labour's points-based immigration system will deal with the requirement for unskilled labour, I suspect. If they get it right, there will be a quota of unskilled labour allowable via immigration. In stark contrast to Reform's vague "non-essential" strapline.
Anyway, let's hope something gets done.
Dave200 said:
Perhaps, just perhaps, they are sitting back and thinking "this is what they wanted when they said they were going to take back control of their borders".
I hope thats not what they are doing. It would be petulant in the extreme and utterly heartless to allow people to set off to their deaths just to score some petty point over Brexit.Vasco said:
Quite.
I'm still waiting to hear how the French can manage to not see, or overlook, the hundreds setting out across the Channel. In particular, just how do you buy and transport so many new inflatable boats so that, at times, numerous can be inflated ready for loading hundreds of people - presumably nobody sees them or knows anybody who supplies such specialist equipment ?
The French coastline is long. It is impossible to police all of it. Once a dinghy is in the water then the police won’t touch them due to H&S and it then becomes a coastguard/french border force/navy problem. The migrants don’t want to be deterred and will fight back making a dangerous environment even more so and what chance do 3 or 4 coppers have against 50 migrants intent on crossing?I'm still waiting to hear how the French can manage to not see, or overlook, the hundreds setting out across the Channel. In particular, just how do you buy and transport so many new inflatable boats so that, at times, numerous can be inflated ready for loading hundreds of people - presumably nobody sees them or knows anybody who supplies such specialist equipment ?
They’re not purchasing the dinghy’s from the French version of Argos - they’re mainly coming from places like Turkey where they are basically knocked up in sheds and then driven to where they’re needed and then inflated for a onetime crossing. Sea worthy they ain’t.
It’s organised crime. They’ll have the logistics well sorted out.
andymadmak said:
Dave200 said:
Perhaps, just perhaps, they are sitting back and thinking "this is what they wanted when they said they were going to take back control of their borders".
I hope thats not what they are doing. It would be petulant in the extreme and utterly heartless to allow people to set off to their deaths just to score some petty point over Brexit.Do they ever pick many people up themselves ?
Vasco said:
andymadmak said:
Dave200 said:
Perhaps, just perhaps, they are sitting back and thinking "this is what they wanted when they said they were going to take back control of their borders".
I hope thats not what they are doing. It would be petulant in the extreme and utterly heartless to allow people to set off to their deaths just to score some petty point over Brexit.Do they ever pick many people up themselves ?
If Labour want any further cooperation from the French they will be invited to sign up to the new EU quota scheme imho.
I actually think 30k illegals is a small price to pay compared to the amount likely to be insisted on as an EU quota.
bad company said:
You called him a liar before but failed to come up with credible evidence.
Try putting any politician’s name into Google followed by the word liar.
He seems to have deleted the Twitter post where he said he wasn't going to stand for reform and had more important business to help out Donald?Try putting any politician’s name into Google followed by the word liar.
Dave200 said:
PurplePenguin said:
Dave200 said:
Olivera said:
Dave200 said:
Current costing is estimated at £1.3bn a year.
It's not costing £1.3bn per year: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68613186The National Audit Office states: "the Home Office still expects to spend £3.1bn on private accommodation in the year up to March 2024.".
That's just accommodation, so you need to add on welfare, legal, translation, health spending on top.
So should I assume you'll be voting Labour, who have a plan to tackle immigration numbers AND the (completely unrelated) problem of "small boats"?
Unless you're a Reform voter, it seems. I'm still waiting for someone here to explain the specifics of Reform's plan for immigration and boat people that has won them over. I feel like I might be waiting a while here.
https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/britain-took-back-50-mi...
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