Reform UK

[Dave200]

Murph7355 said:

Dave200 said:

Murph7355 said:

Dave200 said:

Looks like the numbers I found were wrong.

So should I assume you'll be voting Labour, who have a plan to tackle immigration numbers AND the (completely unrelated) problem of "small boats"?

Ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Sounds like you seem to be suggesting voting Labour for similar reason to those you tabled earlier.

"I'm voting Reform, lol".

This is grown-up political discourse at its finest.

Reap what you sow.

The good news here is that you've immediately identified yourself as being beyond redemption.

You're voting Reform because you're quite bitter about life, and you like the idea of Nige the Liar "taking back control" and sticking it to the man. It lets you go on the internet and gloat anonymously.

It makes you feel less bitter, albeit briefly.

[bad company]

Dave200 said:

That is unless you're the sort of person who spends too much time listening to Nige the Liar.

You called him a liar before but failed to come up with credible evidence.

Try putting any politician’s name into Google followed by the word liar.

[Dave200]

bad company said:

Dave200 said:

That is unless you're the sort of person who spends too much time listening to Nige the Liar.

You called him a liar before but failed to come up with credible evidence.

Try putting any politician’s name into Google followed by the word liar.

I've shared plenty of evidence that you dismissed with "well yeah, but they are all at it" or "well yeah, but that just Twitter man".

"Not credible" and "I don't like this inconvenient truth" aren't the same thing.

[Vasco]

Vanden Saab said:

Vasco said:

Dave200 said:

I find it curious that there's so much (misplaced) emphasis on "small boats" from Reform supporters, but none of them seem willing to back Labour who pledge to stop them.
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-opposition-lea...

Of course Labour are also planning to deal with the actual immigration problems, rather than just standing on a cliff and pointing at the boats as evidence of a broken immigration system.

So, the big pledge from Starmer to the small boats issue is to work with our foreign colleagues. How is that different to the current arrangement ?

It is not. It is just a sop to the white knights who think anything bar taking them back or sending them somewhere else when they arrive will actually work.
You only have to look at the resources the EU has and their abject failure to do anything about the smugglers to understand that.

Quite.

I'm still waiting to hear how the French can manage to not see, or overlook, the hundreds setting out across the Channel. In particular, just how do you buy and transport so many new inflatable boats so that, at times, numerous can be inflated ready for loading hundreds of people - presumably nobody sees them or knows anybody who supplies such specialist equipment ?

[Dave200]

Vasco said:

Vanden Saab said:

Vasco said:

Dave200 said:

I find it curious that there's so much (misplaced) emphasis on "small boats" from Reform supporters, but none of them seem willing to back Labour who pledge to stop them.
https://www.reuters.com/world/uk/uk-opposition-lea...

Of course Labour are also planning to deal with the actual immigration problems, rather than just standing on a cliff and pointing at the boats as evidence of a broken immigration system.

So, the big pledge from Starmer to the small boats issue is to work with our foreign colleagues. How is that different to the current arrangement ?

It is not. It is just a sop to the white knights who think anything bar taking them back or sending them somewhere else when they arrive will actually work.
You only have to look at the resources the EU has and their abject failure to do anything about the smugglers to understand that.

Quite.

I'm still waiting to hear how the French can manage to not see, or overlook, the hundreds setting out across the Channel. In particular, just how do you buy and transport so many new inflatable boats so that, at times, numerous can be inflated ready for loading hundreds of people - presumably nobody sees them or knows anybody who supplies such specialist equipment ?

Perhaps, just perhaps, they are sitting back and thinking "this is what they wanted when they said they were going to take back control of their borders".

[bad company]

Dave200 said:

I've shared plenty of evidence that you dismissed with "well yeah, but they are all at it" or "well yeah, but that just Twitter man".

"Not credible" and "I don't like this inconvenient truth" aren't the same thing.

You shared a link to a bitter & twisted bloke’s opinions & theories.

[andymadmak]

Dave200 said:

andymadmak said:

Dave200 said:

Where did you read that in their three-point plan? Or is this yet more "Labour bogeyman" wibbling?

1) Boost Britain’s skills by joining-up Whitehall systems to spot and tackle skills shortages – so we can fire up skills training rather than look overseas to fill skills gaps, and end the days of sectors languishing on the shortage of skills list without a plan to deal with the problem.

2) Reform the points-based immigration system, bringing down migration. We will instruct the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) to partner with other government agencies to ensure joined-up action to deliver the skills needed for growth, including priority sectors for our industrial strategy. We will work to reduce the need for international recruitment, boost per-capita growth, and ensure quick responses to changes in the labour market.

3) New powers to ban hiring from overseas for employers and recruitment agencies who break employment law. An end to workplace exploitation, where migration is used as a way to undercut the terms and conditions of workers here.

I think the above is a good start towards ensuring UK is focussed on securing the skills it needs, through a combination of improved training of British young people and selective immigration that brings in those we still need.
We still need some unskilled immigration though, so how do we ensure that we get the quantity and quality we want? I see the changes the Tories made post Brexit that allowed the explosion our student visas and then extended to families has lead to the 600k+ we have now, but even if SKS changes those rules, how does the Govt secure the right people?

I'm also entirely unclear how this deals with the issue of the boat people? Granted the numbers in boats is comparatively small but its a problem that needs to be addressed because:

1. Too many people are dying making the trip
2. People are being exploited
3. It's a totem that Reform et al point to
4. The media likes to give us the daily numbers - further fuelling unease

You've literally deleted the part of my post that explains their plan to deal with "the boat people". Did you not read it before you deleted it???

Labour's points-based immigration system will deal with the requirement for unskilled labour, I suspect. If they get it right, there will be a quota of unskilled labour allowable via immigration. In stark contrast to Reform's vague "non-essential" strapline.

Yes, sorry, I did edit my post a few seconds later but you were too quick for me! I saw the point regarding cracking down on the criminal gangs, special investigators etc, and asked how this could work - Are the French going to allow these investigators to operate in France? Are they going to allow physical arrest by investigators of migrants getting into boats whilst they are still in France? I am genuinely unsure how, as a practical matter, Labour can do that much more to stop the boats than the Tories have done. Platitudes such as "working with our partners etc" tend to be useless when the realities of actually getting to grips with the gangs and the boats are revealed.
Anyway, let's hope something gets done.

[andymadmak]

Dave200 said:

Perhaps, just perhaps, they are sitting back and thinking "this is what they wanted when they said they were going to take back control of their borders".

I hope thats not what they are doing. It would be petulant in the extreme and utterly heartless to allow people to set off to their deaths just to score some petty point over Brexit.

[valiant]

Vasco said:

Quite.

I'm still waiting to hear how the French can manage to not see, or overlook, the hundreds setting out across the Channel. In particular, just how do you buy and transport so many new inflatable boats so that, at times, numerous can be inflated ready for loading hundreds of people - presumably nobody sees them or knows anybody who supplies such specialist equipment ?

The French coastline is long. It is impossible to police all of it. Once a dinghy is in the water then the police won’t touch them due to H&S and it then becomes a coastguard/french border force/navy problem. The migrants don’t want to be deterred and will fight back making a dangerous environment even more so and what chance do 3 or 4 coppers have against 50 migrants intent on crossing?

They’re not purchasing the dinghy’s from the French version of Argos - they’re mainly coming from places like Turkey where they are basically knocked up in sheds and then driven to where they’re needed and then inflated for a onetime crossing. Sea worthy they ain’t.

It’s organised crime. They’ll have the logistics well sorted out.

[the-photographer]

bad company said:

You called him a liar before but failed to come up with credible evidence.

Try putting any politician’s name into Google followed by the word liar.

[Vasco]

andymadmak said:

Dave200 said:

Perhaps, just perhaps, they are sitting back and thinking "this is what they wanted when they said they were going to take back control of their borders".

I hope thats not what they are doing. It would be petulant in the extreme and utterly heartless to allow people to set off to their deaths just to score some petty point over Brexit.

Well, to be fair, it's a bit difficult to understand how the French can routinely turn a blind eye to loads of new inflatable boats arriving on their shores and leaving shortly afterwards with dozens or hundreds of people on board. I thought we paid for them to increase patrols etc.
Do they ever pick many people up themselves ?

[swisstoni]

Vasco said:

andymadmak said:

Dave200 said:

Perhaps, just perhaps, they are sitting back and thinking "this is what they wanted when they said they were going to take back control of their borders".

I hope thats not what they are doing. It would be petulant in the extreme and utterly heartless to allow people to set off to their deaths just to score some petty point over Brexit.

Well, to be fair, it's a bit difficult to understand how the French can routinely turn a blind eye to loads of new inflatable boats arriving on their shores and leaving shortly afterwards with dozens or hundreds of people on board. I thought we paid for them to increase patrols etc.
Do they ever pick many people up themselves ?

The EU think the UK is already missing out on it’s fair share of migrants. If a few ‘leak’ to the UK, they aren’t so bothered.

If Labour want any further cooperation from the French they will be invited to sign up to the new EU quota scheme imho.

I actually think 30k illegals is a small price to pay compared to the amount likely to be insisted on as an EU quota.

[anonymous-user]

bad company said:

You called him a liar before but failed to come up with credible evidence.

Try putting any politician’s name into Google followed by the word liar.

He seems to have deleted the Twitter post where he said he wasn't going to stand for reform and had more important business to help out Donald?

[Vanden Saab]

Dave200 said:

PurplePenguin said:

Dave200 said:

Olivera said:

Dave200 said:

Current costing is estimated at £1.3bn a year.

It's not costing £1.3bn per year: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-68613186

The National Audit Office states: "the Home Office still expects to spend £3.1bn on private accommodation in the year up to March 2024.".

That's just accommodation, so you need to add on welfare, legal, translation, health spending on top.

Looks like the numbers I found were wrong.

So should I assume you'll be voting Labour, who have a plan to tackle immigration numbers AND the (completely unrelated) problem of "small boats"?

Because government “plans” always work. It will be very interesting to revisit in a year to see how Labour will have sorted illegal immigration.

And if Labour don't succeed, I'd expect them to be judged against that failure at the next election. That's how politics works.

Unless you're a Reform voter, it seems. I'm still waiting for someone here to explain the specifics of Reform's plan for immigration and boat people that has won them over. I feel like I might be waiting a while here.

Take them back to France in exactly the same way the Irish returned their illegal immigrants to the UK.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/news/britain-took-back-50-mi...

[tangerine_sedge]

the-photographer said:

bad company said:

You called him a liar before but failed to come up with credible evidence.

Try putting any politician’s name into Google followed by the word liar.

This is classic Farage; deny, then when presented with an accurate statement that he can't deny, to turn on the interviewer.

Meanwhile Farage fans seem to like him because he "SPeAks ThE trUTh!!!"

[bad company]

Killboy said:

bad company said:

You called him a liar before but failed to come up with credible evidence.

Try putting any politician’s name into Google followed by the word liar.

He seems to have deleted the Twitter post where he said he wasn't going to stand for reform and had more important business to help out Donald?

Yes. He changed his mind, he said just that.

[Vasco]

Dave200 said:

Where did you read that in their three-point plan? Or is this yet more "Labour bogeyman" wibbling?

1) Boost Britain’s skills by joining-up Whitehall systems to spot and tackle skills shortages – so we can fire up skills training rather than look overseas to fill skills gaps, and end the days of sectors languishing on the shortage of skills list without a plan to deal with the problem.

2) Reform the points-based immigration system, bringing down migration. We will instruct the Migration Advisory Committee (MAC) to partner with other government agencies to ensure joined-up action to deliver the skills needed for growth, including priority sectors for our industrial strategy. We will work to reduce the need for international recruitment, boost per-capita growth, and ensure quick responses to changes in the labour market.

3) New powers to ban hiring from overseas for employers and recruitment agencies who break employment law. An end to workplace exploitation, where migration is used as a way to undercut the terms and conditions of workers here.

In essence, the above is a more intelligent and well thought-out version of what Reform are proposing with their vague "Freeze Non-Essential Immigration" and "Employer Immigration Tax" policies. Farage was challenged on the detail of this a couple of weeks back on BBC R4, and couldn't actually tell anyone what "Essential Immigration" was in practice.

Reform also make "small boats" the second bullet point in their 7-point plan, and their only detail as to how they plan to achieve this is the frankly ludicrous idea of leaving the ECHR.

Labour, on the other hand, have actually given this some thought and separated the issue out from immigration.
"Labour will launch a new Border Security Command with hundreds of new specialist investigators and counter-terror powers to smash criminal gangs and strengthen our borders."

So then, tell me what it is SPECIFICALLY about Reform's policy that you think people should vote for?

To be quite honest, there's little in that Starmer waffle that enthrals me. I'm certainly not convinced that Labour will achieve very much of that wish list.
Reform has a lot of questions to answer (and probably few good answers) but I'm far more concerned with a seemingly weak Labour party/manifesto - and leader.

[DeejRC]

Dave200 said:

Murph7355 said:

Dave200 said:

Murph7355 said:

Dave200 said:

Looks like the numbers I found were wrong.

So should I assume you'll be voting Labour, who have a plan to tackle immigration numbers AND the (completely unrelated) problem of "small boats"?

Ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Sounds like you seem to be suggesting voting Labour for similar reason to those you tabled earlier.

"I'm voting Reform, lol".

This is grown-up political discourse at its finest.

Reap what you sow.

The good news here is that you've immediately identified yourself as being beyond redemption.

You're voting Reform because you're quite bitter about life, and you like the idea of Nige the Liar "taking back control" and sticking it to the man. It lets you go on the internet and gloat anonymously.

It makes you feel less bitter, albeit briefly.

So tell me Murph, which of the 355 or Daytona was that made you particularly bitter?
Or is that you have upgraded the Griffs wiring to David Gerald spec wires and headlights and the fkers still don’t bloody work!?

[Dave200]

andymadmak said:

Dave200 said:

Perhaps, just perhaps, they are sitting back and thinking "this is what they wanted when they said they were going to take back control of their borders".

I hope thats not what they are doing. It would be petulant in the extreme and utterly heartless to allow people to set off to their deaths just to score some petty point over Brexit.

This was the "taking back control of our borders" that 51% voted for.

[skwdenyer]

valiant said:

Vasco said:

Quite.

I'm still waiting to hear how the French can manage to not see, or overlook, the hundreds setting out across the Channel. In particular, just how do you buy and transport so many new inflatable boats so that, at times, numerous can be inflated ready for loading hundreds of people - presumably nobody sees them or knows anybody who supplies such specialist equipment ?

The French coastline is long. It is impossible to police all of it. Once a dinghy is in the water then the police won’t touch them due to H&S and it then becomes a coastguard/french border force/navy problem. The migrants don’t want to be deterred and will fight back making a dangerous environment even more so and what chance do 3 or 4 coppers have against 50 migrants intent on crossing?

They’re not purchasing the dinghy’s from the French version of Argos - they’re mainly coming from places like Turkey where they are basically knocked up in sheds and then driven to where they’re needed and then inflated for a onetime crossing. Sea worthy they ain’t.

It’s organised crime. They’ll have the logistics well sorted out.

Also don't forget that *leaving* France isn't a criminal offence. What would you like the French to arrest the migrants for?