Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?
Discussion
andymadmak said:
1. A catalyst for a major shake up in the Conservative party - long overdue imho. The Conservatives need to go back to basics ( no Major pun intended) and be the broad church, centre right party that has always brought them success in the past.
Presumably by removing all the anti EU lot who have been a thorn in the centrists' sides for years?Edited by Bill on Tuesday 25th June 10:51
Dave200 said:
turbobloke said:
If it was correct that Reform have no influence now or in future, little attention and no attack mode hype would be needed. See above.
Fever dream: ironic in context, risible after brexit. Name-calling: predictable. Moaning about media coverage while denying influence - comedic.
I just find it risible that Reform and their supporters have reduced politics to a popularity contest, akin to the cult of personality, where they revel in criticism. I'd feel similarly if it was the Greens whose candidates and supporters were behaving this way.Fever dream: ironic in context, risible after brexit. Name-calling: predictable. Moaning about media coverage while denying influence - comedic.
As for "media coverage = influence", I assume you think that Diane Abbott is similarly influential given the amount of "coverage" she gets?
Dave200 said:
What does it tell you if Reform manage to snare two seats during a generational collapse of the Tory party, and in an election where the turnout is forecast by some to be "the worst in modern history"?
Considering they only managed 2 seats in the local elections, I'd call that a miracle. swisstoni said:
President Merkin said:
Why is there a queue of rocket scientists in here who blithely assume being critical of Reform automatically makes them left wingers? It's such a lazy trope.
Probably alongside the queue of brain surgeons who are assuming eveyone else is a Reform supporter.With regard to the thread title and Reform seats, the first MRP YouGov poll in March predicted zero seats. The latest a few days ago had Reform on 5 seats including Farage in Clacton iirc, this would be a-good-thing in terms of shaking up debates in the HoC and with media / public discussions.
andymadmak said:
Who has said that? Are you making stuff up again PM? Tropes to the left, tropes to the right, so many of them from your own fetid mind.
Fetid. Ever the charmer.Anyway, you. Literally five minutes ago. You have this endearing habit of denying things you wrote than everyone can see.
andymadmak said:
The only thing I find strange about all this is the obvious blind panic that some on the left (on here) seem to have about Reform
Anyway, push off Andy. I have no intention of getting down to your tune this morning.andymadmak said:
I doubt if Reform will get more than 2 seats - and that's assuming that Farage wins his, which is not a certainty given his record of running for the HoC over the years. I see Reform as being 2 things
1. A catalyst for a major shake up in the Conservative party - long overdue imho. The Conservatives need to go back to basics ( no Major pun intended) and be the broad church, centre right party that has always brought them success in the past.
2. A vent valve for debate about things that the main parties don't want to talk about but which many voters clearly do!
The only thing I find strange about all this is the obvious blind panic that some on the left (on here) seem to have about Reform - far greater than most right wingers! If Reform is ONLY going to take Conservative voters away then why bother complaining at all? The truth might be more subtle than that, and I fancy that a fair old few Labour voters might also be considering Reform simply because they don't believe that SKS et al will get to grips with the problems faced by the UK. (based on my not very scientific quizzing of several long term Labour supporting friends)
That being said. Labour will win the GE, comfortably. The Tories will be humbled, rightly. Reform's role (assuming they get an MP, but even if they don't) will be to force parties to discuss the things they don't want to discuss but which the public has concerns about such as:
Immigration, the NHS, the post Brexit direction for UK PLC, Government competence etc..
Agreed,neat summary.1. A catalyst for a major shake up in the Conservative party - long overdue imho. The Conservatives need to go back to basics ( no Major pun intended) and be the broad church, centre right party that has always brought them success in the past.
2. A vent valve for debate about things that the main parties don't want to talk about but which many voters clearly do!
The only thing I find strange about all this is the obvious blind panic that some on the left (on here) seem to have about Reform - far greater than most right wingers! If Reform is ONLY going to take Conservative voters away then why bother complaining at all? The truth might be more subtle than that, and I fancy that a fair old few Labour voters might also be considering Reform simply because they don't believe that SKS et al will get to grips with the problems faced by the UK. (based on my not very scientific quizzing of several long term Labour supporting friends)
That being said. Labour will win the GE, comfortably. The Tories will be humbled, rightly. Reform's role (assuming they get an MP, but even if they don't) will be to force parties to discuss the things they don't want to discuss but which the public has concerns about such as:
Immigration, the NHS, the post Brexit direction for UK PLC, Government competence etc..
President Merkin said:
andymadmak said:
Who has said that? Are you making stuff up again PM? Tropes to the left, tropes to the right, so many of them from your own fetid mind.
Fetid. Ever the charmer.President Merkin said:
Anyway, you. Literally five minutes ago. You have this endearing habit of denying things you wrote than everyone can see.
I've highlighted the word you're clearly struggling withandymadmak said:
The only thing I find strange about all this is the obvious blind panic that some on the left (on here) seem to have about Reform
President Merkin said:
Anyway, push off Andy. I have no intention of getting down to your tune this morning.
Oh dear. If I was following the PM playbook is this where I should call you a snowflake or such like? 
crankedup5 said:
andymadmak said:
I doubt if Reform will get more than 2 seats - and that's assuming that Farage wins his, which is not a certainty given his record of running for the HoC over the years. I see Reform as being 2 things
1. A catalyst for a major shake up in the Conservative party - long overdue imho. The Conservatives need to go back to basics ( no Major pun intended) and be the broad church, centre right party that has always brought them success in the past.
2. A vent valve for debate about things that the main parties don't want to talk about but which many voters clearly do!
The only thing I find strange about all this is the obvious blind panic that some on the left (on here) seem to have about Reform - far greater than most right wingers! If Reform is ONLY going to take Conservative voters away then why bother complaining at all? The truth might be more subtle than that, and I fancy that a fair old few Labour voters might also be considering Reform simply because they don't believe that SKS et al will get to grips with the problems faced by the UK. (based on my not very scientific quizzing of several long term Labour supporting friends)
That being said. Labour will win the GE, comfortably. The Tories will be humbled, rightly. Reform's role (assuming they get an MP, but even if they don't) will be to force parties to discuss the things they don't want to discuss but which the public has concerns about such as:
Immigration, the NHS, the post Brexit direction for UK PLC, Government competence etc..
Agreed,neat summary.1. A catalyst for a major shake up in the Conservative party - long overdue imho. The Conservatives need to go back to basics ( no Major pun intended) and be the broad church, centre right party that has always brought them success in the past.
2. A vent valve for debate about things that the main parties don't want to talk about but which many voters clearly do!
The only thing I find strange about all this is the obvious blind panic that some on the left (on here) seem to have about Reform - far greater than most right wingers! If Reform is ONLY going to take Conservative voters away then why bother complaining at all? The truth might be more subtle than that, and I fancy that a fair old few Labour voters might also be considering Reform simply because they don't believe that SKS et al will get to grips with the problems faced by the UK. (based on my not very scientific quizzing of several long term Labour supporting friends)
That being said. Labour will win the GE, comfortably. The Tories will be humbled, rightly. Reform's role (assuming they get an MP, but even if they don't) will be to force parties to discuss the things they don't want to discuss but which the public has concerns about such as:
Immigration, the NHS, the post Brexit direction for UK PLC, Government competence etc..
It's not just cost though, a recent Ipsos poll rated ‘Pollution/Environment/Climate Change’ the least important voter issue, placing it at the bottom of their monthly issue index, with the NHS, Inflation, Economy and Immigration at the top end. Just 3% of the electorate think it's the most important issue.
President Merkin said:
Why is there a queue of rocket scientists in here who blithely assume being critical of Reform automatically makes them left wingers? It's such a lazy trope.
See hints of Boris worship in here at the moment prior to his rise to PMship and subsequent downfall.Just remember, you were warned about Boris' behaviour before his rise to power and yet he was defended and excused for virtually everything he did until the inevitable and then we had Stalinesque levels of rewriting history to say they didn't really support him at all.
You're now being warned that it will be the same with Farage. It will end in tears at some point but only after his disgraces will be excused, his comments 'taken out of context' and his eventual fall from grace unexpected.
Don't come posting here in a few years time saying you didn't know what he was like and that you've been taken for fools yet again but I guess there's always another spiv waiting to take you for a ride promising unicorns and rainbows if only you believe enough and continue to send £25...
Dave200 said:
Elysium said:
President Merkin said:
Not in the real world they're not. They won't form a government, their economic policy is fantasy.
Reform are talking to people about issues that the two main parties are not addressing. One of which is taxation.I think people generally understand that Reform won’t be able to do enact their policies. But they want to do two things:
1. Send a clear message about what they want
2. Encourage whatever emerges from the wreckage of the Conservative Party to listen to them.
They don't have the luxury of making stuff up to con older and less intellectually curious voters.
turbobloke said:
Agreed again, all I would add is an extra on the public concerns list, Net Zero, cost mainly, currently £3 trillion and likely to be £5 trillion to 2050 (these derive from the CCC and Oxford Uni).
It's not just cost though, a recent Ipsos poll rated ‘Pollution/Environment/Climate Change’ the least important voter issue, placing it at the bottom of their monthly issue index, with the NHS, Inflation, Economy and Immigration at the top end. Just 3% of the electorate think it's the most important issue.
You've just contradicted yourselfIt's not just cost though, a recent Ipsos poll rated ‘Pollution/Environment/Climate Change’ the least important voter issue, placing it at the bottom of their monthly issue index, with the NHS, Inflation, Economy and Immigration at the top end. Just 3% of the electorate think it's the most important issue.
Left hand says : I would add is an extra on the public concerns list, Net Zero
Right hand says : Just 3% of the electorate think it's the most important issue
Vanden Saab said:
Oh yes, the IFS have now confirmed that neither the tory or Labour manifesto adds up. So just pick your preferred fag packet fairy tale spend and tax plans or as you are doing don your rose tinted specs and pretend that somehow there is a difference.
Right.....so now we have a situation where Reform is no more ridiculous than the 2 main parties. They're all rubbish.If Reform isn't a concern to most other voters why have we got thousands of PH posts on the subject?
skwdenyer said:
Tom8 said:
I don't disagree with your explanation of the failing of "the system". I've said throughout this election and before there has to be honesty in affordability. Yes fundamentally we don't raise enough to pay for the things people want (surely it should be need?) however we provide far too many public services to far too many people. We never seem to say no to anything.
Our population when the NHS was founded was around the 50 million mark. The same service is now providing for about 70 million and the results of that impact are clear. It isn't just the NHS, but schools, roads, food supply, housing. There are too many people drawing on limited resources.
Throw on top a huge dollop of government incompetence, government procurement and public sector malaise and look what we have.
Is it time for a new referendum, do people want to pay much more tax to pay for so many expensive services or cut the state back or population control. Yes the population is ageing so increasing pressure on the NHS. There is no easy answer but the least politicians can do is recognise the problem, admit it and work on a plan to resolve it.
That’s an interesting take. The range and scope of public services has been scaled back considerably.Our population when the NHS was founded was around the 50 million mark. The same service is now providing for about 70 million and the results of that impact are clear. It isn't just the NHS, but schools, roads, food supply, housing. There are too many people drawing on limited resources.
Throw on top a huge dollop of government incompetence, government procurement and public sector malaise and look what we have.
Is it time for a new referendum, do people want to pay much more tax to pay for so many expensive services or cut the state back or population control. Yes the population is ageing so increasing pressure on the NHS. There is no easy answer but the least politicians can do is recognise the problem, admit it and work on a plan to resolve it.
You talk about “resources” in the context of population as if there’s a finite pot regardless of population. That’s nonsense. The pot is a function of taxation.
Without all those people you complain about, we’d be bankrupt already just paying pensions and care costs. That huge swathe of pensioners aren’t in the main immigrants. They’re people who didn’t have enough children to pay for their old age!
The only population control that would make a difference right now would be a cull of the elderly; many cynics thought this responsible for the Government’s Covid strategy towards care homes
As regards a referendum, on what? Abandoning social care and the state pension? What else would you like to cut?
What we have now is not sustainable and needs to be addressed by taking more money from citizens or reducing demands in either services or people wanting them. Population control is a delicate balance and it does make you wonder about keeping people alive later in life. The recent Isle of Man and Channel Islands votes on assisted dying is very interesting. Having gone through recent death of elderly family members I am very much for assisted dying. The prolonging of life for no real benefit to a patient I find a challenge (not mention the huge cost!)
Vanden Saab said:
Oh yes, the IFS have now confirmed that neither the tory or Labour manifesto adds up
No they haven't. They've said specifically that both parties are omitting to spell out how they will square off spending in the context of a moribund economy & rising welfare, defence & debt.Vanden Saab said:
. So just pick your preferred fag packet fairy tale spend and tax plans or as you are doing don your rose tinted specs and pretend that somehow there is a difference.
If you want rose tinted fairynomics, vote Reform. Then you too will be able to join the NHS & pay no tax for two years while magicking up a £35bn interest rate jackpot from the BoE.Andy I think you might be conflating “blind panic” with highlighting the fascist following habits and racist tendencies of quite a few of their candidates.
Reform should be allowed to run (obviously) and at the end of it all they’ll probably have a handful of seats.
That’s how a democracy works.
Reform should be allowed to run (obviously) and at the end of it all they’ll probably have a handful of seats.
That’s how a democracy works.
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