Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?
Discussion
skwdenyer said:
20% lower than EU14 levels, many of which also have *additional* private healthcare burdens.
OECD is a terrible measure. Comparisons with countries with fundamentally different healthcare systems are pointless and misleading.
We don’t raise enough tax. Furthermore, health and care services aren’t month-to-month businesses. The chronic under-investment over decades doesn’t go away. All those years of low taxes and risible investment come home to roost; much of that historical under-investment needs catching up with.
I agree with you about tax burden to a degree, but don’t forget we have a lot of very regressive consumption taxes, which disproportionately impact lower earners. The real world tax burden isn’t necessarily as bad as you seem to think.
Our problem isn’t tax; it is that we have poor services (because too little tax and spending); we have privatised utilities (sucking cash out of the economy for no gain); we have poor productivity (thanks to myopic service-industry-first policies); we’ve a deliberately-inflated housing market (causing more economic pain to ordinary folk); we’ve a major pension and social care problem; we don’t tax the elderly enough (no proper asset taxes); we thought ourselves awfully clever by adopting third-world inflation-linked borrowings that are eating us alive; we’ve never invested national wealth for the future; and so on.
So many cling to a utopian idea that a low-tax, high-prosperity, high-growth future exists. It doesn’t. There’s no comparable economy in the world that has managed that trick. Low taxes create poor outcomes that in turn create a spiral to the bottom. We’ve already cut regulation and enforcement in this country to the extent that individuals and small businesses simply can’t trust service-providers, contractors, not to rip them off, which in turn limits spending and investment; we can’t manage basic level detection and prevention of crime; fraud is at epidemic levels; etc.
Prosperous economies require trust, faith, certainty and hope; they need good regulation and proper enforcement to establish a level playing field which in turn encourages investment and spending. Instead the UK is now a playground for money launderers, fraudsters, international tax avoiders, and seemingly deliberately set up to funnel the maximum amount of wealth offshore.
We can’t even run a proper border system, meaning crooked tax evaders are destroying the competitive landscape.
A well-regulated market requires regulation and enforcement. A prosperous economy requires a healthy, treated workforce made up of well-educated people conditioned to strive for legitimate success, not cheat steal or deal drugs to get ahead.
Taxation is a sign of taking those things seriously. Promising lower taxes is acquiescence to a worse, less prosperous future for everyday British citizens.
Wow, just when I thought this thread is a waste of time this pops up. Great postOECD is a terrible measure. Comparisons with countries with fundamentally different healthcare systems are pointless and misleading.
We don’t raise enough tax. Furthermore, health and care services aren’t month-to-month businesses. The chronic under-investment over decades doesn’t go away. All those years of low taxes and risible investment come home to roost; much of that historical under-investment needs catching up with.
I agree with you about tax burden to a degree, but don’t forget we have a lot of very regressive consumption taxes, which disproportionately impact lower earners. The real world tax burden isn’t necessarily as bad as you seem to think.
Our problem isn’t tax; it is that we have poor services (because too little tax and spending); we have privatised utilities (sucking cash out of the economy for no gain); we have poor productivity (thanks to myopic service-industry-first policies); we’ve a deliberately-inflated housing market (causing more economic pain to ordinary folk); we’ve a major pension and social care problem; we don’t tax the elderly enough (no proper asset taxes); we thought ourselves awfully clever by adopting third-world inflation-linked borrowings that are eating us alive; we’ve never invested national wealth for the future; and so on.
So many cling to a utopian idea that a low-tax, high-prosperity, high-growth future exists. It doesn’t. There’s no comparable economy in the world that has managed that trick. Low taxes create poor outcomes that in turn create a spiral to the bottom. We’ve already cut regulation and enforcement in this country to the extent that individuals and small businesses simply can’t trust service-providers, contractors, not to rip them off, which in turn limits spending and investment; we can’t manage basic level detection and prevention of crime; fraud is at epidemic levels; etc.
Prosperous economies require trust, faith, certainty and hope; they need good regulation and proper enforcement to establish a level playing field which in turn encourages investment and spending. Instead the UK is now a playground for money launderers, fraudsters, international tax avoiders, and seemingly deliberately set up to funnel the maximum amount of wealth offshore.
We can’t even run a proper border system, meaning crooked tax evaders are destroying the competitive landscape.
A well-regulated market requires regulation and enforcement. A prosperous economy requires a healthy, treated workforce made up of well-educated people conditioned to strive for legitimate success, not cheat steal or deal drugs to get ahead.
Taxation is a sign of taking those things seriously. Promising lower taxes is acquiescence to a worse, less prosperous future for everyday British citizens.
crankedup5 said:
Dave200 said:
crankedup5 said:
Dave200 said:
Vasco said:
Dave200 said:
"NF in the HoC" is quite the slip.
You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
I'll be very surprised if Reform MPs don't make themselves rather more loud and noticeable than the Greens or Plaid (or even LibDems).You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
Edited by Dave200 on Tuesday 25th June 08:54
It just sounds like a right-wing fever dream, to be honest. All of which assumes that Nige the Liar will turn up more often than he did as an MEP.
They've had a hugely disproportionation amount of media coverage this election, and a generational collapse of the Tory party to benefit from. And their grand total is 2 seats.
Does Nige the Liar's plan (probably written on another fag packet) look something like this:
1. Make empty promises
2. Get loads of media attention
3. ???
4. General Election 2029
Fever dream: ironic in context, risible after brexit. Name-calling: predictable. Moaning about media coverage while denying influence - comedic.
Killboy said:
skwdenyer said:
20% lower than EU14 levels, many of which also have *additional* private healthcare burdens.
OECD is a terrible measure. Comparisons with countries with fundamentally different healthcare systems are pointless and misleading.
We don’t raise enough tax. Furthermore, health and care services aren’t month-to-month businesses. The chronic under-investment over decades doesn’t go away. All those years of low taxes and risible investment come home to roost; much of that historical under-investment needs catching up with.
I agree with you about tax burden to a degree, but don’t forget we have a lot of very regressive consumption taxes, which disproportionately impact lower earners. The real world tax burden isn’t necessarily as bad as you seem to think.
Our problem isn’t tax; it is that we have poor services (because too little tax and spending); we have privatised utilities (sucking cash out of the economy for no gain); we have poor productivity (thanks to myopic service-industry-first policies); we’ve a deliberately-inflated housing market (causing more economic pain to ordinary folk); we’ve a major pension and social care problem; we don’t tax the elderly enough (no proper asset taxes); we thought ourselves awfully clever by adopting third-world inflation-linked borrowings that are eating us alive; we’ve never invested national wealth for the future; and so on.
So many cling to a utopian idea that a low-tax, high-prosperity, high-growth future exists. It doesn’t. There’s no comparable economy in the world that has managed that trick. Low taxes create poor outcomes that in turn create a spiral to the bottom. We’ve already cut regulation and enforcement in this country to the extent that individuals and small businesses simply can’t trust service-providers, contractors, not to rip them off, which in turn limits spending and investment; we can’t manage basic level detection and prevention of crime; fraud is at epidemic levels; etc.
Prosperous economies require trust, faith, certainty and hope; they need good regulation and proper enforcement to establish a level playing field which in turn encourages investment and spending. Instead the UK is now a playground for money launderers, fraudsters, international tax avoiders, and seemingly deliberately set up to funnel the maximum amount of wealth offshore.
We can’t even run a proper border system, meaning crooked tax evaders are destroying the competitive landscape.
A well-regulated market requires regulation and enforcement. A prosperous economy requires a healthy, treated workforce made up of well-educated people conditioned to strive for legitimate success, not cheat steal or deal drugs to get ahead.
Taxation is a sign of taking those things seriously. Promising lower taxes is acquiescence to a worse, less prosperous future for everyday British citizens.
Wow, just when I thought this thread is a waste of time this pops up. Great postOECD is a terrible measure. Comparisons with countries with fundamentally different healthcare systems are pointless and misleading.
We don’t raise enough tax. Furthermore, health and care services aren’t month-to-month businesses. The chronic under-investment over decades doesn’t go away. All those years of low taxes and risible investment come home to roost; much of that historical under-investment needs catching up with.
I agree with you about tax burden to a degree, but don’t forget we have a lot of very regressive consumption taxes, which disproportionately impact lower earners. The real world tax burden isn’t necessarily as bad as you seem to think.
Our problem isn’t tax; it is that we have poor services (because too little tax and spending); we have privatised utilities (sucking cash out of the economy for no gain); we have poor productivity (thanks to myopic service-industry-first policies); we’ve a deliberately-inflated housing market (causing more economic pain to ordinary folk); we’ve a major pension and social care problem; we don’t tax the elderly enough (no proper asset taxes); we thought ourselves awfully clever by adopting third-world inflation-linked borrowings that are eating us alive; we’ve never invested national wealth for the future; and so on.
So many cling to a utopian idea that a low-tax, high-prosperity, high-growth future exists. It doesn’t. There’s no comparable economy in the world that has managed that trick. Low taxes create poor outcomes that in turn create a spiral to the bottom. We’ve already cut regulation and enforcement in this country to the extent that individuals and small businesses simply can’t trust service-providers, contractors, not to rip them off, which in turn limits spending and investment; we can’t manage basic level detection and prevention of crime; fraud is at epidemic levels; etc.
Prosperous economies require trust, faith, certainty and hope; they need good regulation and proper enforcement to establish a level playing field which in turn encourages investment and spending. Instead the UK is now a playground for money launderers, fraudsters, international tax avoiders, and seemingly deliberately set up to funnel the maximum amount of wealth offshore.
We can’t even run a proper border system, meaning crooked tax evaders are destroying the competitive landscape.
A well-regulated market requires regulation and enforcement. A prosperous economy requires a healthy, treated workforce made up of well-educated people conditioned to strive for legitimate success, not cheat steal or deal drugs to get ahead.
Taxation is a sign of taking those things seriously. Promising lower taxes is acquiescence to a worse, less prosperous future for everyday British citizens.
Tom8 said:
I don't disagree with your explanation of the failing of "the system". I've said throughout this election and before there has to be honesty in affordability. Yes fundamentally we don't raise enough to pay for the things people want (surely it should be need?) however we provide far too many public services to far too many people. We never seem to say no to anything.
Our population when the NHS was founded was around the 50 million mark. The same service is now providing for about 70 million and the results of that impact are clear. It isn't just the NHS, but schools, roads, food supply, housing. There are too many people drawing on limited resources.
Throw on top a huge dollop of government incompetence, government procurement and public sector malaise and look what we have.
Is it time for a new referendum, do people want to pay much more tax to pay for so many expensive services or cut the state back or population control. Yes the population is ageing so increasing pressure on the NHS. There is no easy answer but the least politicians can do is recognise the problem, admit it and work on a plan to resolve it.
That’s an interesting take. The range and scope of public services has been scaled back considerably.Our population when the NHS was founded was around the 50 million mark. The same service is now providing for about 70 million and the results of that impact are clear. It isn't just the NHS, but schools, roads, food supply, housing. There are too many people drawing on limited resources.
Throw on top a huge dollop of government incompetence, government procurement and public sector malaise and look what we have.
Is it time for a new referendum, do people want to pay much more tax to pay for so many expensive services or cut the state back or population control. Yes the population is ageing so increasing pressure on the NHS. There is no easy answer but the least politicians can do is recognise the problem, admit it and work on a plan to resolve it.
You talk about “resources” in the context of population as if there’s a finite pot regardless of population. That’s nonsense. The pot is a function of taxation.
Without all those people you complain about, we’d be bankrupt already just paying pensions and care costs. That huge swathe of pensioners aren’t in the main immigrants. They’re people who didn’t have enough children to pay for their old age!
The only population control that would make a difference right now would be a cull of the elderly; many cynics thought this responsible for the Government’s Covid strategy towards care homes
As regards a referendum, on what? Abandoning social care and the state pension? What else would you like to cut?
hing! S600BSB said:
LimmerickLad said:
Killboy said:
I think that with the amount of media attention Reform are getting to only get a handful of seats is a bit of a failure. 
Agreed..assuming you mean the 2029 election.LimmerickLad said:
S600BSB said:
LimmerickLad said:
Killboy said:
I think that with the amount of media attention Reform are getting to only get a handful of seats is a bit of a failure.
Agreed..assuming you mean the 2029 election."Powerful Jews" are “agitating” to import “third-world Muslims” into Britain
Jewish Chronicle said:
The candidate for Bournemouth West, Ben Aston, claimed that Jews were planning to organise Muslim migration into Britain and that the UK government was “injecting” Britain with African men.
If this had been Dianne Abbott Reform supporters would have gone into meltdown. turbobloke said:
If it was correct that Reform have no influence now or in future, little attention and no attack mode hype would be needed. See above.
Fever dream: ironic in context, risible after brexit. Name-calling: predictable. Moaning about media coverage while denying influence - comedic.
I just find it risible that Reform and their supporters have reduced politics to a popularity contest, akin to the cult of personality, where they revel in criticism. I'd feel similarly if it was the Greens whose candidates and supporters were behaving this way.Fever dream: ironic in context, risible after brexit. Name-calling: predictable. Moaning about media coverage while denying influence - comedic.
As for "media coverage = influence", I assume you think that Diane Abbott is similarly influential given the amount of "coverage" she gets?
I doubt if Reform will get more than 2 seats - and that's assuming that Farage wins his, which is not a certainty given his record of running for the HoC over the years. I see Reform as being 2 things
1. A catalyst for a major shake up in the Conservative party - long overdue imho. The Conservatives need to go back to basics ( no Major pun intended) and be the broad church, centre right party that has always brought them success in the past.
2. A vent valve for debate about things that the main parties don't want to talk about but which many voters clearly do!
The only thing I find strange about all this is the obvious blind panic that some on the left (on here) seem to have about Reform - far greater than most right wingers! If Reform is ONLY going to take Conservative voters away then why bother complaining at all? The truth might be more subtle than that, and I fancy that a fair old few Labour voters might also be considering Reform simply because they don't believe that SKS et al will get to grips with the problems faced by the UK. (based on my not very scientific quizzing of several long term Labour supporting friends)
That being said. Labour will win the GE, comfortably. The Tories will be humbled, rightly. Reform's role (assuming they get an MP, but even if they don't) will be to force parties to discuss the things they don't want to discuss but which the public has concerns about such as:
Immigration, the NHS, the post Brexit direction for UK PLC, Government competence etc..
1. A catalyst for a major shake up in the Conservative party - long overdue imho. The Conservatives need to go back to basics ( no Major pun intended) and be the broad church, centre right party that has always brought them success in the past.
2. A vent valve for debate about things that the main parties don't want to talk about but which many voters clearly do!
The only thing I find strange about all this is the obvious blind panic that some on the left (on here) seem to have about Reform - far greater than most right wingers! If Reform is ONLY going to take Conservative voters away then why bother complaining at all? The truth might be more subtle than that, and I fancy that a fair old few Labour voters might also be considering Reform simply because they don't believe that SKS et al will get to grips with the problems faced by the UK. (based on my not very scientific quizzing of several long term Labour supporting friends)
That being said. Labour will win the GE, comfortably. The Tories will be humbled, rightly. Reform's role (assuming they get an MP, but even if they don't) will be to force parties to discuss the things they don't want to discuss but which the public has concerns about such as:
Immigration, the NHS, the post Brexit direction for UK PLC, Government competence etc..
Dave200 said:
Right. Back to the fever dream stuff.
They've had a hugely disproportionation amount of media coverage this election, and a generational collapse of the Tory party to benefit from. And their grand total is 2 seats.
Does Nige the Liar's plan (probably written on another fag packet) look something like this:
1. Make empty promises
2. Get loads of media attention
3. ???
4. General Election 2029
It's always been 2 and 4. Has anybody said otherwise?They've had a hugely disproportionation amount of media coverage this election, and a generational collapse of the Tory party to benefit from. And their grand total is 2 seats.
Does Nige the Liar's plan (probably written on another fag packet) look something like this:
1. Make empty promises
2. Get loads of media attention
3. ???
4. General Election 2029
I wonder what comments we'll be making around 2029.....
crankedup5 said:
Killboy said:
I think that with the amount of media attention Reform are getting to only get a handful of seats is a bit of a failure.
I’m looking forward to read about voting percentages, how many voters have voted for each Party standing. Also the turnout numbers.President Merkin said:
Why is there a queue of rocket scientists in here who blithely assume being critical of Reform automatically makes them left wingers? It's such a lazy trope.
Who has said that? Are you making stuff up again PM? Tropes to the left, tropes to the right, so many of them from your own fetid mind.Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff