Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?
Discussion
skwdenyer said:
Elysium said:
We are only ‘slightly below average’ for the G7 and OECD. The sad truth is that it is mostly tax on median incomes where we are lower. Frozen tax bands are set to drag us above average:
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how...
Given the amount we already pay we should expect public services to function.
20% lower than EU14 levels, many of which also have *additional* private healthcare burdens.https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how...
Given the amount we already pay we should expect public services to function.
OECD is a terrible measure. Comparisons with countries with fundamentally different healthcare systems are pointless and misleading.
We don’t raise enough tax. Furthermore, health and care services aren’t month-to-month businesses. The chronic under-investment over decades doesn’t go away. All those years of low taxes and risible investment come home to roost; much of that historical under-investment needs catching up with.
I agree with you about tax burden to a degree, but don’t forget we have a lot of very regressive consumption taxes, which disproportionately impact lower earners. The real world tax burden isn’t necessarily as bad as you seem to think.
Our problem isn’t tax; it is that we have poor services (because too little tax and spending); we have privatised utilities (sucking cash out of the economy for no gain); we have poor productivity (thanks to myopic service-industry-first policies); we’ve a deliberately-inflated housing market (causing more economic pain to ordinary folk); we’ve a major pension and social care problem; we don’t tax the elderly enough (no proper asset taxes); we thought ourselves awfully clever by adopting third-world inflation-linked borrowings that are eating us alive; we’ve never invested national wealth for the future; and so on.
So many cling to a utopian idea that a low-tax, high-prosperity, high-growth future exists. It doesn’t. There’s no comparable economy in the world that has managed that trick. Low taxes create poor outcomes that in turn create a spiral to the bottom. We’ve already cut regulation and enforcement in this country to the extent that individuals and small businesses simply can’t trust service-providers, contractors, not to rip them off, which in turn limits spending and investment; we can’t manage basic level detection and prevention of crime; fraud is at epidemic levels; etc.
Prosperous economies require trust, faith, certainty and hope; they need good regulation and proper enforcement to establish a level playing field which in turn encourages investment and spending. Instead the UK is now a playground for money launderers, fraudsters, international tax avoiders, and seemingly deliberately set up to funnel the maximum amount of wealth offshore.
We can’t even run a proper border system, meaning crooked tax evaders are destroying the competitive landscape.
A well-regulated market requires regulation and enforcement. A prosperous economy requires a healthy, treated workforce made up of well-educated people conditioned to strive for legitimate success, not cheat steal or deal drugs to get ahead.
Taxation is a sign of taking those things seriously. Promising lower taxes is acquiescence to a worse, less prosperous future for everyday British citizens.
Our population when the NHS was founded was around the 50 million mark. The same service is now providing for about 70 million and the results of that impact are clear. It isn't just the NHS, but schools, roads, food supply, housing. There are too many people drawing on limited resources.
Throw on top a huge dollop of government incompetence, government procurement and public sector malaise and look what we have.
Is it time for a new referendum, do people want to pay much more tax to pay for so many expensive services or cut the state back or population control. Yes the population is ageing so increasing pressure on the NHS. There is no easy answer but the least politicians can do is recognise the problem, admit it and work on a plan to resolve it.
President Merkin said:
Not in the real world they're not. They won't form a government, their economic policy is fantasy.
Reform are talking to people about issues that the two main parties are not addressing. One of which is taxation.I think people generally understand that Reform won’t be able to do enact their policies. But they want to do two things:
1. Send a clear message about what they want
2. Encourage whatever emerges from the wreckage of the Conservative Party to listen to them.
Vasco said:
Dave200 said:
Vasco said:
Quite.
Labour and the Conservatives have little in the way of worthwhile solutions, so people will ignore much of their boring waffle. The obvious way forward for the over-60s and those without any education this year will be a protest vote for a party whose manifesto is a work of fiction.
FTFY.Labour and the Conservatives have little in the way of worthwhile solutions, so people will ignore much of their boring waffle. The obvious way forward for the over-60s and those without any education this year will be a protest vote for a party whose manifesto is a work of fiction.
.
turbobloke said:
An impartial wish list if ever there was one. Written as though it was factual too, good stuff.
Farage never achieved anything so it'll be more of the same? Remember brexit? For 8 years you haven't forgetten it - until now. Sure! No directly elected MPs, and the UK leaves the EU. NF in the HoC and two or three more MPs, with constant MSM coverage and social media on top, that's the epitome of influence. We'll see in due course from July 5.
It's not even a day since you took a kicking from all sides trying to excuse Sunak & the past 14 years of Tory disaster. Now you're predicting the future. Farage never achieved anything so it'll be more of the same? Remember brexit? For 8 years you haven't forgetten it - until now. Sure! No directly elected MPs, and the UK leaves the EU. NF in the HoC and two or three more MPs, with constant MSM coverage and social media on top, that's the epitome of influence. We'll see in due course from July 5.
And your Brexit obsession is showing again. I suspect you think that's a way of getting at me. It's not. I deal in the world as I find it, not as I wish. By definition, if by now, you're still cheerleading for Brexit, you aren't doing the same. I.e. the perfect Reform voter.
Dave200 said:
"NF in the HoC" is quite the slip.
You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
I'll be very surprised if Reform MPs don't make themselves rather more loud and noticeable than the Greens or Plaid (or even LibDems).You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
Edited by Dave200 on Tuesday 25th June 08:54
Elysium said:
President Merkin said:
Not in the real world they're not. They won't form a government, their economic policy is fantasy.
Reform are talking to people about issues that the two main parties are not addressing. One of which is taxation.I think people generally understand that Reform won’t be able to do enact their policies. But they want to do two things:
1. Send a clear message about what they want
2. Encourage whatever emerges from the wreckage of the Conservative Party to listen to them.
They don't have the luxury of making stuff up to con older and less intellectually curious voters.
S600BSB said:
Vasco said:
Dave200 said:
Vasco said:
Quite.
Labour and the Conservatives have little in the way of worthwhile solutions, so people will ignore much of their boring waffle. The obvious way forward for the over-60s and those without any education this year will be a protest vote for a party whose manifesto is a work of fiction.
FTFY.Labour and the Conservatives have little in the way of worthwhile solutions, so people will ignore much of their boring waffle. The obvious way forward for the over-60s and those without any education this year will be a protest vote for a party whose manifesto is a work of fiction.
.
I think Labour is going to be less harmful than the Tories, but they don’t seem to have any real ideas or ambition that will arrest the UKs social and economic decline. Just more of the same.
Vasco said:
Dave200 said:
"NF in the HoC" is quite the slip.
You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
I'll be very surprised if Reform MPs don't make themselves rather more loud and noticeable than the Greens or Plaid (or even LibDems).You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
Edited by Dave200 on Tuesday 25th June 08:54
It just sounds like a right-wing fever dream, to be honest. All of which assumes that Nige the Liar will turn up more often than he did as an MEP.
S600BSB said:
Vasco said:
Dave200 said:
Vasco said:
Quite.
Labour and the Conservatives have little in the way of worthwhile solutions, so people will ignore much of their boring waffle. The obvious way forward for the over-60s and those without any education this year will be a protest vote for a party whose manifesto is a work of fiction.
FTFY.Labour and the Conservatives have little in the way of worthwhile solutions, so people will ignore much of their boring waffle. The obvious way forward for the over-60s and those without any education this year will be a protest vote for a party whose manifesto is a work of fiction.
.
Dave200 said:
Elysium said:
President Merkin said:
Not in the real world they're not. They won't form a government, their economic policy is fantasy.
Reform are talking to people about issues that the two main parties are not addressing. One of which is taxation.I think people generally understand that Reform won’t be able to do enact their policies. But they want to do two things:
1. Send a clear message about what they want
2. Encourage whatever emerges from the wreckage of the Conservative Party to listen to them.
They don't have the luxury of making stuff up to con older and less intellectually curious voters.
Dave200 said:
Vasco said:
Dave200 said:
"NF in the HoC" is quite the slip.
You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
I'll be very surprised if Reform MPs don't make themselves rather more loud and noticeable than the Greens or Plaid (or even LibDems).You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
Edited by Dave200 on Tuesday 25th June 08:54
It just sounds like a right-wing fever dream, to be honest. All of which assumes that Nige the Liar will turn up more often than he did as an MEP.
crankedup5 said:
Dave200 said:
Vasco said:
Dave200 said:
"NF in the HoC" is quite the slip.
You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
I'll be very surprised if Reform MPs don't make themselves rather more loud and noticeable than the Greens or Plaid (or even LibDems).You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
Edited by Dave200 on Tuesday 25th June 08:54
It just sounds like a right-wing fever dream, to be honest. All of which assumes that Nige the Liar will turn up more often than he did as an MEP.
They've had a hugely disproportionation amount of media coverage this election, and a generational collapse of the Tory party to benefit from. And their grand total is 2 seats.
Does Nige the Liar's plan (probably written on another fag packet) look something like this:
1. Make empty promises
2. Get loads of media attention
3. ???
4. General Election 2029
Mrr T said:
Disastrous said:
skwdenyer said:
20% lower than EU14 levels, many of which also have *additional* private healthcare burdens.
OECD is a terrible measure. Comparisons with countries with fundamentally different healthcare systems are pointless and misleading.
We don’t raise enough tax. Furthermore, health and care services aren’t month-to-month businesses. The chronic under-investment over decades doesn’t go away. All those years of low taxes and risible investment come home to roost; much of that historical under-investment needs catching up with.
I agree with you about tax burden to a degree, but don’t forget we have a lot of very regressive consumption taxes, which disproportionately impact lower earners. The real world tax burden isn’t necessarily as bad as you seem to think.
Our problem isn’t tax; it is that we have poor services (because too little tax and spending); we have privatised utilities (sucking cash out of the economy for no gain); we have poor productivity (thanks to myopic service-industry-first policies); we’ve a deliberately-inflated housing market (causing more economic pain to ordinary folk); we’ve a major pension and social care problem; we don’t tax the elderly enough (no proper asset taxes); we thought ourselves awfully clever by adopting third-world inflation-linked borrowings that are eating us alive; we’ve never invested national wealth for the future; and so on.
So many cling to a utopian idea that a low-tax, high-prosperity, high-growth future exists. It doesn’t. There’s no comparable economy in the world that has managed that trick. Low taxes create poor outcomes that in turn create a spiral to the bottom. We’ve already cut regulation and enforcement in this country to the extent that individuals and small businesses simply can’t trust service-providers, contractors, not to rip them off, which in turn limits spending and investment; we can’t manage basic level detection and prevention of crime; fraud is at epidemic levels; etc.
Prosperous economies require trust, faith, certainty and hope; they need good regulation and proper enforcement to establish a level playing field which in turn encourages investment and spending. Instead the UK is now a playground for money launderers, fraudsters, international tax avoiders, and seemingly deliberately set up to funnel the maximum amount of wealth offshore.
We can’t even run a proper border system, meaning crooked tax evaders are destroying the competitive landscape.
A well-regulated market requires regulation and enforcement. A prosperous economy requires a healthy, treated workforce made up of well-educated people conditioned to strive for legitimate success, not cheat steal or deal drugs to get ahead.
Taxation is a sign of taking those things seriously. Promising lower taxes is acquiescence to a worse, less prosperous future for everyday British citizens.
Great post!OECD is a terrible measure. Comparisons with countries with fundamentally different healthcare systems are pointless and misleading.
We don’t raise enough tax. Furthermore, health and care services aren’t month-to-month businesses. The chronic under-investment over decades doesn’t go away. All those years of low taxes and risible investment come home to roost; much of that historical under-investment needs catching up with.
I agree with you about tax burden to a degree, but don’t forget we have a lot of very regressive consumption taxes, which disproportionately impact lower earners. The real world tax burden isn’t necessarily as bad as you seem to think.
Our problem isn’t tax; it is that we have poor services (because too little tax and spending); we have privatised utilities (sucking cash out of the economy for no gain); we have poor productivity (thanks to myopic service-industry-first policies); we’ve a deliberately-inflated housing market (causing more economic pain to ordinary folk); we’ve a major pension and social care problem; we don’t tax the elderly enough (no proper asset taxes); we thought ourselves awfully clever by adopting third-world inflation-linked borrowings that are eating us alive; we’ve never invested national wealth for the future; and so on.
So many cling to a utopian idea that a low-tax, high-prosperity, high-growth future exists. It doesn’t. There’s no comparable economy in the world that has managed that trick. Low taxes create poor outcomes that in turn create a spiral to the bottom. We’ve already cut regulation and enforcement in this country to the extent that individuals and small businesses simply can’t trust service-providers, contractors, not to rip them off, which in turn limits spending and investment; we can’t manage basic level detection and prevention of crime; fraud is at epidemic levels; etc.
Prosperous economies require trust, faith, certainty and hope; they need good regulation and proper enforcement to establish a level playing field which in turn encourages investment and spending. Instead the UK is now a playground for money launderers, fraudsters, international tax avoiders, and seemingly deliberately set up to funnel the maximum amount of wealth offshore.
We can’t even run a proper border system, meaning crooked tax evaders are destroying the competitive landscape.
A well-regulated market requires regulation and enforcement. A prosperous economy requires a healthy, treated workforce made up of well-educated people conditioned to strive for legitimate success, not cheat steal or deal drugs to get ahead.
Taxation is a sign of taking those things seriously. Promising lower taxes is acquiescence to a worse, less prosperous future for everyday British citizens.
I know that nobody ever changes their opinion on here but fwiw, as someone who hates paying tax, this ha actually changed my view on it. Very thought provoking and intelligent post.
"Throwing money" at a problem is not a solution, but extra funding allows planning, strategic thinking and establishment of a stronger base of services to build upon. One of the major issues at the moment is that there appears to be little strategy within government to improve services over the longer term, it is all just about trying to maintain a lead in the polls until the next election.
LimmerickLad said:
swisstoni said:
So what’s all the fuss about then?
No influence, so don’t worry about it.
Does make me wonder why the angst?No influence, so don’t worry about it.
I don't know what all the fuss is about.
LimmerickLad said:
swisstoni said:
So what’s all the fuss about then?
No influence, so don’t worry about it.
Does make me wonder why the angst?No influence, so don’t worry about it.
https://x.com/RishiSunak/status/180415814207636685...
Dave200 said:
crankedup5 said:
Dave200 said:
Vasco said:
Dave200 said:
"NF in the HoC" is quite the slip.
You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
I'll be very surprised if Reform MPs don't make themselves rather more loud and noticeable than the Greens or Plaid (or even LibDems).You'll forgive me not getting quite so excited about the prospect of Nige the Liar attention-whoring in the commons with no real substance to anything he's offering. I feel like we deserve more from MPs.
But sure, having a similar number of seats to the Greens and Plaid really screams "influence".
Edited by Dave200 on Tuesday 25th June 08:54
It just sounds like a right-wing fever dream, to be honest. All of which assumes that Nige the Liar will turn up more often than he did as an MEP.
They've had a hugely disproportionation amount of media coverage this election, and a generational collapse of the Tory party to benefit from. And their grand total is 2 seats.
Does Nige the Liar's plan (probably written on another fag packet) look something like this:
1. Make empty promises
2. Get loads of media attention
3. ???
4. General Election 2029
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