Reform UK - A symptom of all that is wrong?
Discussion
andymadmak said:
I think blaming voters (as you put it) is probably, in the final analysis, the right thing to do.
Um, I didn't, you did.andymadmak said:
The problem I think, at least in part, is that people don't understand that ultimately everything provided by the Government has to be paid for, either by taxes or by borrowing (that is in turn funded by taxes) .... In fact the fault lies with the disconnect that the public has with reality, a disconnect created and encouraged by politicians of all sides
You understand i can see your words right?
You can waffle at length on choice, broken promises & all that but the uncomfortable truth is even if you are right & the electorate gets the government it deserves, a lurch to Reform is neveer the answer to any rational question.
Reform appeals to the basest instincts of the electorate. This is hardly news, nor controversial, their whole thing is blame Blame the Tories, blame the immigrants, blame the vetting company, In the end, you can either deplore the thick eletorate or hold up Reform as the answer but not both.
cheesejunkie said:
I'd love someone to explain how to improve public services and reduce taxation at the same time.
Anyone who says efficiency savings is a liar.
The obvious solution is to kill old people but it's unlikely to go down very well given that they vote. I've no intention of killing my parents, ok maybe sometimes.
How many complaining about who's economically active are retired or living off savings?
Complicated problems don't have easy solutions. But people are quick to label and if you're retired you're on benefits.
We have record levels of taxation and failing public services. It was not always this way and I would argue it is a failure of both management and imagination. Anyone who says efficiency savings is a liar.
The obvious solution is to kill old people but it's unlikely to go down very well given that they vote. I've no intention of killing my parents, ok maybe sometimes.
How many complaining about who's economically active are retired or living off savings?
Complicated problems don't have easy solutions. But people are quick to label and if you're retired you're on benefits.
Austerity was an utter disaster, because instead of running a more efficient public sector, they just stopped providing important services, whilst also continuing to increase taxation further still.
It's completely reasonable to ask where our money is going.
I was involved with a Govt funded construction project some years ago, which we delivered as a commercial private sector partner. Our costs needed to be vetted by multiple people who then had all sorts of watching briefs. All of them paid by taxation and adding zero value. The only issue they raised was that our costs were too low.
You might imagine that this might be by 10% or perhaps even 20%. However, we were actually building at costs 5 times lower than Govt procurement would expect.
The public sector wastes money on a colossal scale. We have something like 600 Govt departments, that are being merged, rebranded and reconfigured almost constantly based on ministerial whimsy. Something like 20% of all working people are directly employed by the state.
Efficiency savings are not far fetched, but the organisation protects itself.
President Merkin said:
andymadmak said:
I think blaming voters (as you put it) is probably, in the final analysis, the right thing to do.
Um, I didn't, you did.andymadmak said:
The problem I think, at least in part, is that people don't understand that ultimately everything provided by the Government has to be paid for, either by taxes or by borrowing (that is in turn funded by taxes) .... In fact the fault lies with the disconnect that the public has with reality, a disconnect created and encouraged by politicians of all sides
You understand i can see your words right?
You can waffle at length on choice, broken promises & all that but the uncomfortable truth is even if you are right & the electorate gets the government it deserves, a lurch to Reform is neveer the answer to any rational question.
Reform appeals to the basest instincts of the electorate. This is hardly news, nor controversial, their whole thing is blame Blame the Tories, blame the immigrants, blame the vetting company, In the end, you can either deplore the thick eletorate or hold up Reform as the answer but not both.
Also, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that i'm voting for and/or a supporter of Reform. I'm not.
Still 0/2 is better than your usual score.
andymadmak said:
President Merkin said:
andymadmak said:
I think blaming voters (as you put it) is probably, in the final analysis, the right thing to do.
Um, I didn't, you did.andymadmak said:
The problem I think, at least in part, is that people don't understand that ultimately everything provided by the Government has to be paid for, either by taxes or by borrowing (that is in turn funded by taxes) .... In fact the fault lies with the disconnect that the public has with reality, a disconnect created and encouraged by politicians of all sides
You understand i can see your words right?
You can waffle at length on choice, broken promises & all that but the uncomfortable truth is even if you are right & the electorate gets the government it deserves, a lurch to Reform is neveer the answer to any rational question.
Reform appeals to the basest instincts of the electorate. This is hardly news, nor controversial, their whole thing is blame Blame the Tories, blame the immigrants, blame the vetting company, In the end, you can either deplore the thick eletorate or hold up Reform as the answer but not both.
Also, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that i'm voting for and/or a supporter of Reform. I'm not.
Still 0/2 is better than your usual score.
It has to be Pythonesque. Agree, and then get an argument back over it as picked up once or twice in the Sunak thread.,
andymadmak said:
I see your problem. In your desperate rush to be rude you have failed to read properly and/or comprehend what I have written. You described my post as blaming the electorate - I agreed with you, because ultimately its up to the electorate to decide who to support.
Also, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that i'm voting for and/or a supporter of Reform. I'm not.
Still 0/2 is better than your usual score.
This is the Reform thread, I'm entitled to infer its inhabitants on the right are at the very least attracted to it. And it's becoming seriously tiresome to see the right wingers in here take offence where none is given. If you can't stand up your argument, fine, just say so. Throwing your toys out the pram is just childish.Also, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that i'm voting for and/or a supporter of Reform. I'm not.
Still 0/2 is better than your usual score.
Hi Turbo
President Merkin said:
This is the Reform thread, I'm entitled to infer its inhabitants on the right are at the very least attracted to it. And it's becoming seriously tiresome to see the right wingers in here take offence where none is given. If you can't stand up your argument, fine, just say so. Throwing your toys out the pram is just childish.
Remember, in their world, everyone else is the snowflake. captain_cynic said:
President Merkin said:
This is the Reform thread, I'm entitled to infer its inhabitants on the right are at the very least attracted to it. And it's becoming seriously tiresome to see the right wingers in here take offence where none is given. If you can't stand up your argument, fine, just say so. Throwing your toys out the pram is just childish.
Remember, in their world, everyone else is the snowflake. Vanden Saab said:
captain_cynic said:
President Merkin said:
This is the Reform thread, I'm entitled to infer its inhabitants on the right are at the very least attracted to it. And it's becoming seriously tiresome to see the right wingers in here take offence where none is given. If you can't stand up your argument, fine, just say so. Throwing your toys out the pram is just childish.
Remember, in their world, everyone else is the snowflake. 
how awesome is that.b
hstewie said:
hstewie said: What I don't get is how so many of the same people who got rinsed by Johnson now seem to be queueing up to be rinsed by Farage.
I'd love to see Farage in a real fight, I think he'd last two seconds. But in a staged one setup to give him room to air his view he'll know how to work it.I do know why some vote for the racist immigrant hating scum bag. Some of them don't like being told he hates them too. But whatever.
But I very much do get why so many who got rinsed by Cameron and Osborne would vote for Farage.
Johnson wasn't the problem and he was never the solution to any question asked ever. Farage isn't either but keep screwing people you get angry people. The tories biggest mistake was thinking they were in control of the consequences of austerity. Labour isn't either. But they haven't spent 14 years absolutely raping the populace and laughing about it. Good luck on July the 4th is my genuinely heart felt opinion about tory politicians, your defeat has been a long time brewing and it's not Johnson's or lettuce's fault. But that you'd make Bojo party leader and defend him says a lot and is not without consequences.
I don't believe in Karma but it's coming to the Tory party.
Elysium said:
We have record levels of taxation and failing public services. It was not always this way and I would argue it is a failure of both management and imagination.
Austerity was an utter disaster, because instead of running a more efficient public sector, they just stopped providing important services, whilst also continuing to increase taxation further still.
It's completely reasonable to ask where our money is going.
I was involved with a Govt funded construction project some years ago, which we delivered as a commercial private sector partner. Our costs needed to be vetted by multiple people who then had all sorts of watching briefs. All of them paid by taxation and adding zero value. The only issue they raised was that our costs were too low.
You might imagine that this might be by 10% or perhaps even 20%. However, we were actually building at costs 5 times lower than Govt procurement would expect.
The public sector wastes money on a colossal scale. We have something like 600 Govt departments, that are being merged, rebranded and reconfigured almost constantly based on ministerial whimsy. Something like 20% of all working people are directly employed by the state.
Efficiency savings are not far fetched, but the organisation protects itself.
"The organisation" is the tory party not the civil service.Austerity was an utter disaster, because instead of running a more efficient public sector, they just stopped providing important services, whilst also continuing to increase taxation further still.
It's completely reasonable to ask where our money is going.
I was involved with a Govt funded construction project some years ago, which we delivered as a commercial private sector partner. Our costs needed to be vetted by multiple people who then had all sorts of watching briefs. All of them paid by taxation and adding zero value. The only issue they raised was that our costs were too low.
You might imagine that this might be by 10% or perhaps even 20%. However, we were actually building at costs 5 times lower than Govt procurement would expect.
The public sector wastes money on a colossal scale. We have something like 600 Govt departments, that are being merged, rebranded and reconfigured almost constantly based on ministerial whimsy. Something like 20% of all working people are directly employed by the state.
Efficiency savings are not far fetched, but the organisation protects itself.
I can easily relate to and agree with much of your comment. I don't think we should be arguing about who to blame. It's the tories. Scratch the surface of pretty much any problem in the last 14 years and you get austerity. Anyone who wants to argue for that dumbass policy is more than likely someone who wasn't on the receiving end of it.
I hate government waste as much as anyone. I don't like government waste. I'm a private sector worker who works with some of these useless s
ts.Red tape wastes lots of money but it's not responsible for the problems. Implying someone can cut it and save a fortune is not a solution that will work.
If someone wants to tell me they can find efficiency solutions I'll ask what they are. Because many have tried previously and failed spectacularly.
State spending is not government waste. It can be planned for or be reactionary. But if something needs done it'll need done and it's usually cheaper to sort it in advance. Not that this crowd of politicians would ever admit that. s
t talk about tax cuts doesn't address an aging population, but yeah, someone somewhere thinks they'll be able to find enough waste to grant them. They won't, never could, and never will.President Merkin said:
andymadmak said:
I see your problem. In your desperate rush to be rude you have failed to read properly and/or comprehend what I have written. You described my post as blaming the electorate - I agreed with you, because ultimately its up to the electorate to decide who to support.
Also, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that i'm voting for and/or a supporter of Reform. I'm not.
Still 0/2 is better than your usual score.
This is the Reform thread, I'm entitled to infer its inhabitants on the right are at the very least attracted to it. And it's becoming seriously tiresome to see the right wingers in here take offence where none is given. If you can't stand up your argument, fine, just say so. Throwing your toys out the pram is just childish.Also, you seem to be labouring under the misapprehension that i'm voting for and/or a supporter of Reform. I'm not.
Still 0/2 is better than your usual score.
Hi Turbo
No toys were harmed in the creation of this post.
cheesejunkie said:
Elysium said:
We have record levels of taxation and failing public services. It was not always this way and I would argue it is a failure of both management and imagination.
Austerity was an utter disaster, because instead of running a more efficient public sector, they just stopped providing important services, whilst also continuing to increase taxation further still.
It's completely reasonable to ask where our money is going.
I was involved with a Govt funded construction project some years ago, which we delivered as a commercial private sector partner. Our costs needed to be vetted by multiple people who then had all sorts of watching briefs. All of them paid by taxation and adding zero value. The only issue they raised was that our costs were too low.
You might imagine that this might be by 10% or perhaps even 20%. However, we were actually building at costs 5 times lower than Govt procurement would expect.
The public sector wastes money on a colossal scale. We have something like 600 Govt departments, that are being merged, rebranded and reconfigured almost constantly based on ministerial whimsy. Something like 20% of all working people are directly employed by the state.
Efficiency savings are not far fetched, but the organisation protects itself.
"The organisation" is the tory party not the civil service.Austerity was an utter disaster, because instead of running a more efficient public sector, they just stopped providing important services, whilst also continuing to increase taxation further still.
It's completely reasonable to ask where our money is going.
I was involved with a Govt funded construction project some years ago, which we delivered as a commercial private sector partner. Our costs needed to be vetted by multiple people who then had all sorts of watching briefs. All of them paid by taxation and adding zero value. The only issue they raised was that our costs were too low.
You might imagine that this might be by 10% or perhaps even 20%. However, we were actually building at costs 5 times lower than Govt procurement would expect.
The public sector wastes money on a colossal scale. We have something like 600 Govt departments, that are being merged, rebranded and reconfigured almost constantly based on ministerial whimsy. Something like 20% of all working people are directly employed by the state.
Efficiency savings are not far fetched, but the organisation protects itself.
I can easily relate to and agree with much of your comment. I don't think we should be arguing about who to blame. It's the tories. Scratch the surface of pretty much any problem in the last 14 years and you get austerity. Anyone who wants to argue for that dumbass policy is more than likely someone who wasn't on the receiving end of it.
I hate government waste as much as anyone. I don't like government waste. I'm a private sector worker who works with some of these useless s
ts.Red tape wastes lots of money but it's not responsible for the problems. Implying someone can cut it and save a fortune is not a solution that will work.
If someone wants to tell me they can find efficiency solutions I'll ask what they are. Because many have tried previously and failed spectacularly.
State spending is not government waste. It can be planned for or be reactionary. But if something needs done it'll need done and it's usually cheaper to sort it in advance. Not that this crowd of politicians would ever admit that. s
t talk about tax cuts doesn't address an aging population, but yeah, someone somewhere thinks they'll be able to find enough waste to grant them. They won't, never could, and never will.I don’t have the answer, but ever increasing taxation is a downward spiral. There has to be a better way,
Elysium said:
I think the civil service is part of it. However, I agree that the Austerity policy was beyond useless. In fact I think it actively harmed the UK. And that was 100% down to the Tory’s being led by ideology but too lazy to do it properly.
I don’t have the answer, but ever increasing taxation is a downward spiral. There has to be a better way,
I don't have the answer either and don't agree with ever increasing taxation. But if I could make one frigging suggestion it would be that the government plans for problems rather than dealing with them when they occur.I don’t have the answer, but ever increasing taxation is a downward spiral. There has to be a better way,
Unfortunately that's expensive and the problem might not happen on their shift which means it isn't their problem. But it would save much more money than looking for red tape savings.
Picking a not very random example as it's one I know about, health care. The health care system does not have to consume as much money as it does but it does if you allow the populace to become increasingly unhealthy and don't want them to riot. I'm joking a little. But policy decisions have long tail consequences. There are savings that could be made but those expected by politicians with marginal votes are not the first place I'd be looking.
cheesejunkie said:
Elysium said:
I think the civil service is part of it. However, I agree that the Austerity policy was beyond useless. In fact I think it actively harmed the UK. And that was 100% down to the Tory’s being led by ideology but too lazy to do it properly.
I don’t have the answer, but ever increasing taxation is a downward spiral. There has to be a better way,
I don't have the answer either and don't agree with ever increasing taxation. But if I could make one frigging suggestion it would be that the government plans for problems rather than dealing with them when they occur.I don’t have the answer, but ever increasing taxation is a downward spiral. There has to be a better way,
Unfortunately that's expensive and the problem might not happen on their shift which means it isn't their problem. But it would save much more money than looking for red tape savings.
Picking a not very random example as it's one I know about, health care. The health care system does not have to consume as much money as it does but it does if you allow the populace to become increasingly unhealthy and don't want them to riot. I'm joking a little. But policy decisions have long tail consequences. There are savings that could be made but those expected by politicians with marginal votes are not the first place I'd be looking.
Even now, like-for-like (i.e. adjusting for healthcare), we're still a lower-tax economy than the USA and all of our European peers.
skwdenyer said:
cheesejunkie said:
Elysium said:
I think the civil service is part of it. However, I agree that the Austerity policy was beyond useless. In fact I think it actively harmed the UK. And that was 100% down to the Tory’s being led by ideology but too lazy to do it properly.
I don’t have the answer, but ever increasing taxation is a downward spiral. There has to be a better way,
I don't have the answer either and don't agree with ever increasing taxation. But if I could make one frigging suggestion it would be that the government plans for problems rather than dealing with them when they occur.I don’t have the answer, but ever increasing taxation is a downward spiral. There has to be a better way,
Unfortunately that's expensive and the problem might not happen on their shift which means it isn't their problem. But it would save much more money than looking for red tape savings.
Picking a not very random example as it's one I know about, health care. The health care system does not have to consume as much money as it does but it does if you allow the populace to become increasingly unhealthy and don't want them to riot. I'm joking a little. But policy decisions have long tail consequences. There are savings that could be made but those expected by politicians with marginal votes are not the first place I'd be looking.
Even now, like-for-like (i.e. adjusting for healthcare), we're still a lower-tax economy than the USA and all of our European peers.
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how...
Given the amount we already pay we should expect public services to function.
Elysium said:
We are only ‘slightly below average’ for the G7 and OECD. The sad truth is that it is mostly tax on median incomes where we are lower. Frozen tax bands are set to drag us above average:
https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how...
Given the amount we already pay we should expect public services to function.
20% lower than EU14 levels, many of which also have *additional* private healthcare burdens.https://ifs.org.uk/taxlab/taxlab-key-questions/how...
Given the amount we already pay we should expect public services to function.
OECD is a terrible measure. Comparisons with countries with fundamentally different healthcare systems are pointless and misleading.
We don’t raise enough tax. Furthermore, health and care services aren’t month-to-month businesses. The chronic under-investment over decades doesn’t go away. All those years of low taxes and risible investment come home to roost; much of that historical under-investment needs catching up with.
I agree with you about tax burden to a degree, but don’t forget we have a lot of very regressive consumption taxes, which disproportionately impact lower earners. The real world tax burden isn’t necessarily as bad as you seem to think.
Our problem isn’t tax; it is that we have poor services (because too little tax and spending); we have privatised utilities (sucking cash out of the economy for no gain); we have poor productivity (thanks to myopic service-industry-first policies); we’ve a deliberately-inflated housing market (causing more economic pain to ordinary folk); we’ve a major pension and social care problem; we don’t tax the elderly enough (no proper asset taxes); we thought ourselves awfully clever by adopting third-world inflation-linked borrowings that are eating us alive; we’ve never invested national wealth for the future; and so on.
So many cling to a utopian idea that a low-tax, high-prosperity, high-growth future exists. It doesn’t. There’s no comparable economy in the world that has managed that trick. Low taxes create poor outcomes that in turn create a spiral to the bottom. We’ve already cut regulation and enforcement in this country to the extent that individuals and small businesses simply can’t trust service-providers, contractors, not to rip them off, which in turn limits spending and investment; we can’t manage basic level detection and prevention of crime; fraud is at epidemic levels; etc.
Prosperous economies require trust, faith, certainty and hope; they need good regulation and proper enforcement to establish a level playing field which in turn encourages investment and spending. Instead the UK is now a playground for money launderers, fraudsters, international tax avoiders, and seemingly deliberately set up to funnel the maximum amount of wealth offshore.
We can’t even run a proper border system, meaning crooked tax evaders are destroying the competitive landscape.
A well-regulated market requires regulation and enforcement. A prosperous economy requires a healthy, treated workforce made up of well-educated people conditioned to strive for legitimate success, not cheat steal or deal drugs to get ahead.
Taxation is a sign of taking those things seriously. Promising lower taxes is acquiescence to a worse, less prosperous future for everyday British citizens.
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