General Election July 2024

[President Merkin]

No one ever accused you of sophistication did they BBB.

[SpidersWeb]

Digga said:

Whilst planning is ridiculously bad, impacting all areas of construction and making road and infrastructure costs higher than just about anywhere else in Europe, the issue is definitely numbers:

A nice interesting graph.

I wonder where there is a good source of construction workers that would would be able to stem that decline.

[borcy]

blueg33 said:

borcy said:

blueg33 said:

Interesting programme on tv last night with Tim Harper looking at growth and how it has been delivered in the past.

In summary we need to spend on infrastructure at about 5x the amount we currently do. Short term tax increase or borrowing for long term growth.

Not sure either of the main parties has that policy.

Tim Harper is my choice for PM

What was the name of the show?

Not sure. I missed the first few minutes.

Sorry it was Tim Harford - i'm getting old and forgot his name! It was Channel 4

Skint: The Truth About Britain’s Broken Economy

Thanks I'll have a look.

[BikeBikeBIke]

SpidersWeb said:

I wonder where there is a good source of construction workers that would would be able to stem that decline.

If we imported builders wouldn't we need to build houses for them to live in?

[bodhi]

SpidersWeb said:

Digga said:

Whilst planning is ridiculously bad, impacting all areas of construction and making road and infrastructure costs higher than just about anywhere else in Europe, the issue is definitely numbers:

A nice interesting graph.

I wonder where there is a good source of construction workers that would would be able to stem that decline.

There are a few in Europe.

Shame we scared them all off by closing the borders during COVID.

[borcy]

SpidersWeb said:

Digga said:

Whilst planning is ridiculously bad, impacting all areas of construction and making road and infrastructure costs higher than just about anywhere else in Europe, the issue is definitely numbers:

A nice interesting graph.

I wonder where there is a good source of construction workers that would would be able to stem that decline.

I wonder if it's more to do with economic situation. Overlay that graph with growth in the economy and i think they'd both be similar.

[CivicDuties]

bodhi said:

SpidersWeb said:

Digga said:

Whilst planning is ridiculously bad, impacting all areas of construction and making road and infrastructure costs higher than just about anywhere else in Europe, the issue is definitely numbers:

A nice interesting graph.

I wonder where there is a good source of construction workers that would would be able to stem that decline.

There are a few in Europe.

Shame we scared them all off by closing the borders during COVID.

Close. The real answer starts with a B and ends with a rexit.

[bodhi]

CivicDuties said:

bodhi said:

SpidersWeb said:

Digga said:

Whilst planning is ridiculously bad, impacting all areas of construction and making road and infrastructure costs higher than just about anywhere else in Europe, the issue is definitely numbers:

A nice interesting graph.

I wonder where there is a good source of construction workers that would would be able to stem that decline.

There are a few in Europe.

Shame we scared them all off by closing the borders during COVID.

Close. The real answer starts with a B and ends with a rexit.

No. No it doesn't.

Even after we left your beloved EU there was no real exodus from the UK until we started closing the borders and people were concerned about getting trapped away from their families.

[BikeBikeBIke]

CivicDuties said:

bodhi said:

SpidersWeb said:

Digga said:

Whilst planning is ridiculously bad, impacting all areas of construction and making road and infrastructure costs higher than just about anywhere else in Europe, the issue is definitely numbers:

A nice interesting graph.

I wonder where there is a good source of construction workers that would would be able to stem that decline.

There are a few in Europe.

Shame we scared them all off by closing the borders during COVID.

Close. The real answer starts with a B and ends with a rexit.

Hasn't Brexit increased immigration?

[CivicDuties]

bodhi said:

CivicDuties said:

bodhi said:

SpidersWeb said:

Digga said:

Whilst planning is ridiculously bad, impacting all areas of construction and making road and infrastructure costs higher than just about anywhere else in Europe, the issue is definitely numbers:

A nice interesting graph.

I wonder where there is a good source of construction workers that would would be able to stem that decline.

There are a few in Europe.

Shame we scared them all off by closing the borders during COVID.

Close. The real answer starts with a B and ends with a rexit.

No. No it doesn't.

Even after we left your beloved EU there was no real exodus from the UK until we started closing the borders and people were concerned about getting trapped away from their families.

We left the EU on 31/1/2020. We started closing the borders, what was it, March 2020. 6 weeks? Look at the graph, it shows people moving here until it gets to a point just before Brexit, when people would be starting to worry about being allowed to stay afterwards, so it starts to tail off right there, before Covid hit. People may have left then during Covid, but then they couldn't or didn't want to return because of Brexit.

What's throttling the number of construction workers here is your beloved Brexit and the ludicrous rest-of-world immigration system implemented since then, including such gems of policy as preventing people moving here with their families.

[Sway]

BikeBikeBIke said:

CharlesdeGaulle said:

BikeBikeBIke said:

I want others to have it too. I want local people to have a massive say in planning so everyone gets what they want.

If everyone has a 'massive say' then no-one at all gets what they want (or, more importantly, need).

That's democracy. Feel free to go to North Korea if you feel you don't want your say.

Or even Russia. They would cheerfully employ you on a little project they're doing that wasn't prevented by any pesky voters.

(Incidently, I'm not claiming locals have a say as it is - the planning inspector is the only arbiter. But I'd *like* locals to have a say.)

Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Tuesday 2nd July 15:40

It's not democracy - you've been clear you're happy for a tiny, tiny minority to block anything. Ignoring the potential majority.

[blueg33]

loafer123 said:

blueg33 said:

My little factory can do 3000 pa, but I can set up new factories in 6 months. Factory built needs fewer specialist skills and is ultimately quicker. Labour can be a challenge but if the factory is in a populous area then generally there isnt a problem. I need circa 40 people to build 1000 houses a year and 80 or so to build 3000 from one factory.

The PLC's are also moving more towards factory production with Vistry, Bellway, Persimmon and Barratt all investing.

We can ramp up to 300k houses quite easily the issue remains planning and land availability. Factories need smooth production, land availability and the randomness of planning means that the production requirement is lumpy.

Its very inefficient to have peaks and troughs in manufacturing if we can smooth it then costs will fall and production will increase, jobs will also be more secure.

Could you PM me your details, please?

Pm sent

[isaldiri]

valiant said:

Yep, the program raised this as well and suggested that we need to take a very long term view on what gets built and where. We need to be thinking 20-30 years in the future about where we want to to be and how to get there. Short term parliamentary thinking is no good when you want to build power stations quickly.

Unfortunately, as you alluded to, stuff gets over-politicised for short term political gain to the detriment of future generations. Just look at HS2. Years in the planning, billions spent before a shovel hits the ground only to be truncated on a political whim.

Now future connectivity is held back, opening the northern powerhouse is now a dead duck, existing infrastructure is still aging and already at capacity and future generations will now not reap the benefits.

Imagine if the Victorians had our current day planning? We’re still reaping the benefits of their foresight that simply wouldn’t happen today.

I don’t disagree in principle but realistically speaking, no politician is willing or able to contemplate anything even close to a 20-30 year window because they don’t think they will be around to reap any immediate benefits. If we’re lucky, long term is 5 years or whenever the next GE is. In most cases it’s simply to the next major poll….

[Digga]

Shutup with Brexit. After the pandemic, both Germany and Poland saw the same drop in HGV drivers, post pandemic, as UK. Did they also Brexit?

https://truckmobility-info.com/shortage-of-drivers...

For those too idle to do anything beyond shouting Brexit, here's the construction data:

[bodhi]

CivicDuties said:

We left the EU on 31/1/2020. We started closing the borders, what was it, March 2020. 6 weeks? Look at the graph, it shows people moving here until it gets to a point just before Brexit, when people would be starting to worry about being allowed to stay afterwards, so it starts to tail off right there, before Covid hit. People may have left then during Covid, but then they couldn't or didn't want to return because of Brexit.

What's throttling the number of construction workers here is your beloved Brexit and the ludicrous rest-of-world immigration system implemented since then, including such gems of policy as preventing people moving here with their families.

So despite the great unwashed voting the wrong way (in your terms) we still had an increasing number of construction workers until mid 2020 (according to that graph anyway) when something happened to make them leave - like I dunno a massive downturn in construction and an inability for them to get home.

Wonder what caused that?

Of course now that's all over and we get to set our own immigration laws, we could maybe encourage them back?

[Puzzles]

I too am a fan of garden cities. Someone told me labour were going to create new cities?

blueg33 said:

Puzzles said:

blueg33 said:

Ill build them.

How many per year can you or the uk realistically build in the next 5 years?

Obv it takes time to scale up but is there going to be an issue getting the labour and skills to build 300k odd houses a year?

My little factory can do 3000 pa, but I can set up new factories in 6 months. Factory built needs fewer specialist skills and is ultimately quicker. Labour can be a challenge but if the factory is in a populous area then generally there isnt a problem. I need circa 40 people to build 1000 houses a year and 80 or so to build 3000 from one factory.

The PLC's are also moving more towards factory production with Vistry, Bellway, Persimmon and Barratt all investing.

We can ramp up to 300k houses quite easily the issue remains planning and land availability. Factories need smooth production, land availability and the randomness of planning means that the production requirement is lumpy.

Its very inefficient to have peaks and troughs in manufacturing if we can smooth it then costs will fall and production will increase, jobs will also be more secure.

Interesting, thank you. Is the biggest hurdle there public opinion? People like bricks and mortar.

If your factory has a website, social media etc I'd be interested to have a look.

Edited by Puzzles on Tuesday 2nd July 16:24

[BikeBikeBIke]

Sway said:

It's not democracy - you've been clear you're happy for a tiny, tiny minority to block anything. Ignoring the potential majority.

Yes, because someone said there was plenty of land. If we've got plenty of land then we can have draconian planning laws allowing a tiny majority to prevent development.

Now if land is in short supply because we're insanely overpopulated maybe that isn't appropriate.

[Sway]

BikeBikeBIke said:

Sway said:

It's not democracy - you've been clear you're happy for a tiny, tiny minority to block anything. Ignoring the potential majority.

Yes, because someone said there was plenty of land. If we've got plenty of land then we can have draconian planning laws allowing a tiny majority to prevent development.

Now if land is in short supply because we're insanely overpopulated maybe that isn't appropriate.

That's palpable nonsense.

Infrastructure is needed where it's needed. Of course if there would be genuine and real damage to a unique environment or habitat, that needs to be mitigated - but a vocal minority should not be able to hold an entire region to ransom.

[blueg33]

Puzzles said:

Interesting, thank you. Is the biggest hurdle there public opinion? People like bricks and mortar.

If your factory has a website, social media etc I'd be interested to have a look.

Edited by Puzzles on Tuesday 2nd July 16:24

I'm not going to reveal the company on a public forum, but its worth googling these, one of them may be my current baby

Greencore Homes - Tiny, interesting product, no automation
EDAROTH - net carbon zero - I was involved in setting this up
Top Hat - volumetric modular
LoCal Homes - Advanced timber frame
Z-pods - interesting and niche
Space4 - brings up persimmon who own it
Matrix - haven't seen these in the flesh

Or just google MMC homes or offsite construction

You can also look at those who have gone bust (generally volumetric systems)

Ilke Homes - was the biggest, killed by planning delays and product issues
Urban Splash Haus - interesting killed by planning delays and need to grow investment
Beattie Passive -
Swan - killed by poor product
Lighthouse - killed by planning delays and product issues
BokLok - still technically alive but poor product
L&G Modular - closed down, planning delays and cost meant issues with producing volume.

[p1stonhead]

48 hours until these charlatans are kicked to the curb. How pathetic can you get. Is anything not literally depicting life right now under the Tories or not an outright lie?

https://x.com/rishisunak/status/180803190715579215...

‘Stop the Supermajority’ is a funny campaign slogan though

Everyone loves confidence eh!

Edited by p1stonhead on Tuesday 2nd July 17:01