General Election July 2024
Discussion
valiant said:
Was a very good program if slightly depressing.
We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
Yeah. Every time I walk on a green hill I curse the NIMBY tossers in tbe past who preserved it for me.We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
I'm sure my great grand children will be delighted that our generation covered it in concrete so we could have slightly better material possesions crammed into smaller and smaller houses.
CivicDuties said:
To my amateur eye, the development going on at Bicester currently is a blueprint for good development. Take a town which already has good transport links and connectivity to major urban centres, and make it bigger. And do it with with an eye to sustainability, services and environmentally friendly house design, and with areas available to people to buy land and order bespoke houses, rather than just let corporate developers cover fields with their same old boxes. I'm going to be downsizing from Reading in a couple of years and these new developments at Bicester are catching my eye.
I agree, but, I have to add a "but". Bespoke houses are really expensive to build and build costs are already high. the reason the volume boys build the same types everywhere is the same reason the Victorians built the same types everywhere. Replication = lower cost and quicker build. Lower cost = homes more accessible to more people.It might cost £170 psm to build a bog standard box (without land), it will cost £230psm plus to build something bespoke. If you then take account of site labour shortages and build in factories to get the volume, then for many factories you have to reduce the range of types again. For example, when I was at Charles Church we had 300 plus different types that we built, when I was involved with volumetric modular we had 5 different types.
So I am afraid housing Eutopia isn't going to happen and house the people we need to house who are mainly those on low incomes whilst providing Sterling Prize unique designs
blueg33 said:
CivicDuties said:
To my amateur eye, the development going on at Bicester currently is a blueprint for good development. Take a town which already has good transport links and connectivity to major urban centres, and make it bigger. And do it with with an eye to sustainability, services and environmentally friendly house design, and with areas available to people to buy land and order bespoke houses, rather than just let corporate developers cover fields with their same old boxes. I'm going to be downsizing from Reading in a couple of years and these new developments at Bicester are catching my eye.
I agree, but, I have to add a "but". Bespoke houses are really expensive to build and build costs are already high. the reason the volume boys build the same types everywhere is the same reason the Victorians built the same types everywhere. Replication = lower cost and quicker build. Lower cost = homes more accessible to more people.It might cost £170 psm to build a bog standard box (without land), it will cost £230psm plus to build something bespoke. If you then take account of site labour shortages and build in factories to get the volume, then for many factories you have to reduce the range of types again. For example, when I was at Charles Church we had 300 plus different types that we built, when I was involved with volumetric modular we had 5 different types.
So I am afraid housing Eutopia isn't going to happen and house the people we need to house who are mainly those on low incomes whilst providing Sterling Prize unique designs
Anyone outside of real estate just does not grasp how building anything, be it a 2 bed starter hutch or a monstrous carbuncle on the banks of the Thames costs now compared to pre Covid, pre Truss.
SpidersWeb said:
FiF said:
Neighbouring council (No overall control) has completely failed to meet any sensible housing plan, even one of its own design.
Councillor in charge of housing (Green) has tried to ram through a large scheme with is on greenfield site which technically speaking is mostly but not totally within its own area. Plan rejected but approved on appeal by Sec of State. Practically speaking though if built all the pressure for public services will fall on another council area where demand already outstrips supply including pressure on roads and public transport. For example the location falls within the catchment area for our medical centre which is already at full stretch.
Pretty similar in this area (and from your description of councillors a different area) where the next door council are planning to meet their housing plan requirements by approving a new town at the very edge of their area, miles away from any of their existing towns, but slap bang next to a town in the adjoining county.Councillor in charge of housing (Green) has tried to ram through a large scheme with is on greenfield site which technically speaking is mostly but not totally within its own area. Plan rejected but approved on appeal by Sec of State. Practically speaking though if built all the pressure for public services will fall on another council area where demand already outstrips supply including pressure on roads and public transport. For example the location falls within the catchment area for our medical centre which is already at full stretch.
Win / Win / Win for them as complaints only from a trivial number of their voters, they meet their housing targets, and they get all the financial benefits, and meanwhile the issues for all the infrastructure and support falls on the neighbouring county that gets none of the benefits.
Guardian said:
Starmer says he's a Yimby, determined to bulldoze through local opposition to housebuilding
Keir Starmer has reaffirmed his determination to brush aside local opposition to his plans to increase housebuilding.
When the BBC’s Chris Mason asked him if he was “saying bluntly this is so important you will, bulldoze through local opposition”, Starmer replied: “Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying.”
And when Mason put it to him that he was a Yimby (Yes in my back yard), Starmer replied:
I am Yes. I think that it’s very important that we build the homes that we need for the future.
Meanwhile back in 2021 Labour throwing their weight behindKeir Starmer has reaffirmed his determination to brush aside local opposition to his plans to increase housebuilding.
When the BBC’s Chris Mason asked him if he was “saying bluntly this is so important you will, bulldoze through local opposition”, Starmer replied: “Yes, that’s exactly what I’m saying.”
And when Mason put it to him that he was a Yimby (Yes in my back yard), Starmer replied:
I am Yes. I think that it’s very important that we build the homes that we need for the future.
various from Labour said:
We have to build more homes – but we’ve got to do it the right way, and local communities have got to have a voice in planning decisions.
People ... must not lose their right to a fair say over new developments in our streets, our communities and on our playgrounds, parks and fields.
Different cheeks of the same arse and flip flop when it suits.People ... must not lose their right to a fair say over new developments in our streets, our communities and on our playgrounds, parks and fields.
BikeBikeBIke said:
valiant said:
Was a very good program if slightly depressing.
We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
Yeah. Every time I walk on a green hill I curse the NIMBY tossers in tbe past who preserved it for me.We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
I'm sure my great grand children will be delighted that our generation covered it in concrete so we could have slightly better material possesions crammed into smaller and smaller houses.
By improving connectivity, we open up towns and cities that have so much potential that is untapped especially in the north where things like public transport and roads are seriously underdeveloped.
I’m sorry, but for projects of national importance that can open up areas and provide quality jobs and opportunities then the views of locals impacted must be listened to but must not be a sole reason to delay or knock back projects.
blueg33 said:
CivicDuties said:
To my amateur eye, the development going on at Bicester currently is a blueprint for good development. Take a town which already has good transport links and connectivity to major urban centres, and make it bigger. And do it with with an eye to sustainability, services and environmentally friendly house design, and with areas available to people to buy land and order bespoke houses, rather than just let corporate developers cover fields with their same old boxes. I'm going to be downsizing from Reading in a couple of years and these new developments at Bicester are catching my eye.
I agree, but, I have to add a "but". Bespoke houses are really expensive to build and build costs are already high. the reason the volume boys build the same types everywhere is the same reason the Victorians built the same types everywhere. Replication = lower cost and quicker build. Lower cost = homes more accessible to more people.It might cost £170 psm to build a bog standard box (without land), it will cost £230psm plus to build something bespoke. If you then take account of site labour shortages and build in factories to get the volume, then for many factories you have to reduce the range of types again. For example, when I was at Charles Church we had 300 plus different types that we built, when I was involved with volumetric modular we had 5 different types.
So I am afraid housing Eutopia isn't going to happen and house the people we need to house who are mainly those on low incomes whilst providing Sterling Prize unique designs
These guys: https://www.gravenhill.co.uk/
valiant said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
valiant said:
Was a very good program if slightly depressing.
We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
Yeah. Every time I walk on a green hill I curse the NIMBY tossers in tbe past who preserved it for me.We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
I'm sure my great grand children will be delighted that our generation covered it in concrete so we could have slightly better material possesions crammed into smaller and smaller houses.
By improving connectivity, we open up towns and cities that have so much potential that is untapped especially in the north where things like public transport and roads are seriously underdeveloped.
I’m sorry, but for projects of national importance that can open up areas and provide quality jobs and opportunities then the views of locals impacted must be listened to but must not be a sole reason to delay or knock back projects.
In my view we need to get away from our post war distain for prefabrication and industrialise (and automate) much more of the process.
At the low end standardisation would reduce costs and improve quality (as you can do better QA and automation in a factory).
At the high end you could do more customisation, for a premium?
At the low end standardisation would reduce costs and improve quality (as you can do better QA and automation in a factory).
At the high end you could do more customisation, for a premium?
BikeBikeBIke said:
valiant said:
Was a very good program if slightly depressing.
We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
Yeah. Every time I walk on a green hill I curse the NIMBY tossers in tbe past who preserved it for me.We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
I'm sure my great grand children will be delighted that our generation covered it in concrete so we could have slightly better material possesions crammed into smaller and smaller houses.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Yeah. Every time I walk on a green hill I curse the NIMBY tossers in tbe past who preserved it for me.
I'm sure my great grand children will be delighted that our generation covered it in concrete so we could have slightly better material possesions crammed into smaller and smaller houses.
That's the spirit.I'm sure my great grand children will be delighted that our generation covered it in concrete so we could have slightly better material possesions crammed into smaller and smaller houses.
Sounds you are ready for the Labour/Conservative future.
valiant said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
valiant said:
Was a very good program if slightly depressing.
We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
Yeah. Every time I walk on a green hill I curse the NIMBY tossers in tbe past who preserved it for me.We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
I'm sure my great grand children will be delighted that our generation covered it in concrete so we could have slightly better material possesions crammed into smaller and smaller houses.
By improving connectivity, we open up towns and cities that have so much potential that is untapped especially in the north where things like public transport and roads are seriously underdeveloped.
I’m sorry, but for projects of national importance that can open up areas and provide quality jobs and opportunities then the views of locals impacted must be listened to but must not be a sole reason to delay or knock back projects.
Enjoy your money, I'm sure it will make you very happy.
oyster said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
valiant said:
Was a very good program if slightly depressing.
We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
Yeah. Every time I walk on a green hill I curse the NIMBY tossers in tbe past who preserved it for me.We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
I'm sure my great grand children will be delighted that our generation covered it in concrete so we could have slightly better material possesions crammed into smaller and smaller houses.
CivicDuties said:
Sorry, maybe "bespoke" was the wrong word. What I'm seeing is plots available to purchase with houses to order from a developer with specific exterior design, layout and fitting options, from a catalogue. They don't seem to be any more expensive than equivalent houses to buy from developments where you just get what you're given. It should end up with a slightly more eclectic looking estate that you live in.
These guys: https://www.gravenhill.co.uk/
They have fewer housetypes than a volume developer will use on one site, i'm not sure of the cost per m2 that would be interesting benchmark Having a quick look, I think that the build is much more expensive than a volume builder or there is a massive mark up. The 2 bed house is £4800 per sq metre. That is not cheap or affordable.These guys: https://www.gravenhill.co.uk/
blueg33 said:
CivicDuties said:
Sorry, maybe "bespoke" was the wrong word. What I'm seeing is plots available to purchase with houses to order from a developer with specific exterior design, layout and fitting options, from a catalogue. They don't seem to be any more expensive than equivalent houses to buy from developments where you just get what you're given. It should end up with a slightly more eclectic looking estate that you live in.
These guys: https://www.gravenhill.co.uk/
They have fewer housetypes than a volume developer will use on one site, i'm not sure of the cost per m2 that would be interesting benchmark Having a quick look, I think that the build is much more expensive than a volume builder or there is a massive mark up. The 2 bed house is £4800 per sq metre. That is not cheap or affordable.These guys: https://www.gravenhill.co.uk/
valiant said:
I’m sorry, but for projects of national importance that can open up areas and provide quality jobs and opportunities then the views of locals impacted must be listened to but must not be a sole reason to delay or knock back projects.
This all sounds very noble but in practice, do you seriously not think these ‘planning for national importance’ will not just simply be politicised such that only in areas where the ruling government of the time isn’t strong in suddenly all get approved for development and funnily enough, not in areas with strong tendency to vote for them?BikeBikeBIke said:
oyster said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
valiant said:
Was a very good program if slightly depressing.
We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
Yeah. Every time I walk on a green hill I curse the NIMBY tossers in tbe past who preserved it for me.We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
I'm sure my great grand children will be delighted that our generation covered it in concrete so we could have slightly better material possesions crammed into smaller and smaller houses.
Go be a Mormon or something. As it is, I'd prefer my kids had better local employment prospects, and lower multiples of average earnings for the average house. All whilst reducing road and noise pollution and protecting old historic routes.
Sway said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
oyster said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
valiant said:
Was a very good program if slightly depressing.
We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
Yeah. Every time I walk on a green hill I curse the NIMBY tossers in tbe past who preserved it for me.We desperately need growth so we have to improve productivity and we can do that by improving and investing in infrastructure. Planning is a major hurdle especially for national infrastructure like roads, rail, power, etc and we do need to streamline planning for major projects. Nimbyism is a bloody curse in this country.
I'm sure my great grand children will be delighted that our generation covered it in concrete so we could have slightly better material possesions crammed into smaller and smaller houses.
Go be a Mormon or something. As it is, I'd prefer my kids had better local employment prospects, and lower multiples of average earnings for the average house. All whilst reducing road and noise pollution and protecting old historic routes.
CharlesdeGaulle said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
I want others to have it too. I want local people to have a massive say in planning so everyone gets what they want.
If everyone has a 'massive say' then no-one at all gets what they want (or, more importantly, need). Or even Russia. They would cheerfully employ you on a little project they're doing that wasn't prevented by any pesky voters.
(Incidently, I'm not claiming locals have a say as it is - the planning inspector is the only arbiter. But I'd *like* locals to have a say.)
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Tuesday 2nd July 15:40
isaldiri said:
valiant said:
I’m sorry, but for projects of national importance that can open up areas and provide quality jobs and opportunities then the views of locals impacted must be listened to but must not be a sole reason to delay or knock back projects.
This all sounds very noble but in practice, do you seriously not think these ‘planning for national importance’ will not just simply be politicised such that only in areas where the ruling government of the time isn’t strong in suddenly all get approved for development and funnily enough, not in areas with strong tendency to vote for them?Unfortunately, as you alluded to, stuff gets over-politicised for short term political gain to the detriment of future generations. Just look at HS2. Years in the planning, billions spent before a shovel hits the ground only to be truncated on a political whim.
Now future connectivity is held back, opening the northern powerhouse is now a dead duck, existing infrastructure is still aging and already at capacity and future generations will now not reap the benefits.
Imagine if the Victorians had our current day planning? We’re still reaping the benefits of their foresight that simply wouldn’t happen today.
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