CV19 - Cure Worse Than The Disease? (Vol 19)
Discussion
LeighW said:
foreright said:
I did almost lose my relationship with my parents over the whole thing though as they were very much vaccine zealots and we didn't speak for nearly a year due to disagreements over the whole thing. It's taken quite some time to get that vaguely back on track for the sake of our children seeing their grandparents but that relationship is still pretty broken.
I agree with that last point that there should be consequences for the people who clearly lied about the efficacy of these vaccines and the other measures taken but obviously we'll be waiting "some time" for that.
My wife and I have friends (in hindsight, I should use the term 'friends' loosely) who definitely distanced us once we refused to jab up, we were literally the only ones out of the group who avoided it. It bothered my wife more than me, but we're both very glad we stuck to our guns. I will add that some of those friends now have health issues that may or may not be coincidental, but they've definitely changed their tune with us of late, now being almost overly friendly. I agree with that last point that there should be consequences for the people who clearly lied about the efficacy of these vaccines and the other measures taken but obviously we'll be waiting "some time" for that.
OddCat said:
<snp>
What interests me is how the hesitant made the decision to jump either way.
Instinct, pure and simple, it just didn't 'feel' right from the start.What interests me is how the hesitant made the decision to jump either way.
One the first jabs came out for the old I reluctantly took my then 87 year old mum along for hers. She was still living at home then although things were getting more difficult with her mental health. A week after her first one she fell and broke her wrist, we got into the house and called an ambulance as she was grey and in a right state.
Got a call from the hospital that she'd had a bleed to the brain but probably not relating to her fall.
It was AZ.That was the last time she was at home, she was admitted into a dementia local authority home after her arm healed.
She's happy in her own little world 3 years on, very frail but happy watching the foxes in the garden and chatting with the other residents.
Then other cases of coincidences started happening that we'd hear about in friends of friends and family etc.
Then the daily propaganda against the 'unvaccinated' and 'anti-vaxxer this and anti-vaxxer that' It was all far from right what was being churned out.
Make the Refusniks Pay - Andrew Neil
p
s off the unvaccinated - MacronPlus the untold amount of stuff on a daily basis to brainwash.
Articles like 'Can you be friends with the unvaccinated?"
It got scarey what was going on and once again it was far from right, there was that feeling around December 2022 that things could go down the mandatory jab route.
Things changed overnight February 1st 2023 when the government backed down over NHS staff and mandatory jabs. A pressure was lifted and that hysteria went away mostly.
A really horrible time and more importantly a real eye-opener on how easily people can be manipulated.
But to answer the question briefly, apart from Instinct, my reasons for not having any jabs never changed right from the start to now:
The lack of any real short, medium or long term safety. How could anybody possibly know?
Sorry for the ramble.
Edited for typos
Edited by vixen1700 on Monday 17th June 20:15
Since we are on the confessions of the unvaccinated, I thought I would add my rationale and experiences.
When the vaccine was first talked about I was a little sceptical given the speed of development and the fact that it was EUA only. I therefore decided to read the information related to the approval process.
That information didn’t sit well with me for a number of reasons and decided that I would keep a watching eye on it and consider later in once full approval given and more long term term available. As a child of the 60s whose mother had thalidomide when expecting me, I was more than aware of what could go wrong.
As it became clear that the level of coercion/pressure was increasing, my resolve became stronger - if it meant I couldn’t travel or go to events then that was fine for me. I accept that if I hadn’t been retired, then it would have been a harder decision.
We were fortunate that we only lost a couple of friends due to our stance (which only occurred once he was diagnosed with cancer and said that I should be vaccinated to protect him). We did avoid talking about it to my son and daughter in law - they never asked - and whilst my sister and cousin were a bit off with us for a while, we never got real pressure or fell out.
We have seen several people who have developed illnesses or had relapses post vaccination although accept this could be a coincidence and I don’t think the correlation will ever be made by the experts since we don’t have access to a Time Machine!
When the vaccine was first talked about I was a little sceptical given the speed of development and the fact that it was EUA only. I therefore decided to read the information related to the approval process.
That information didn’t sit well with me for a number of reasons and decided that I would keep a watching eye on it and consider later in once full approval given and more long term term available. As a child of the 60s whose mother had thalidomide when expecting me, I was more than aware of what could go wrong.
As it became clear that the level of coercion/pressure was increasing, my resolve became stronger - if it meant I couldn’t travel or go to events then that was fine for me. I accept that if I hadn’t been retired, then it would have been a harder decision.
We were fortunate that we only lost a couple of friends due to our stance (which only occurred once he was diagnosed with cancer and said that I should be vaccinated to protect him). We did avoid talking about it to my son and daughter in law - they never asked - and whilst my sister and cousin were a bit off with us for a while, we never got real pressure or fell out.
We have seen several people who have developed illnesses or had relapses post vaccination although accept this could be a coincidence and I don’t think the correlation will ever be made by the experts since we don’t have access to a Time Machine!
Agree with both posts above - the other thing for me was the media and political destruction of any possibility of “post infection immunity” - they had no idea how many people had recovered from C-19 but dismissed “natural immunity” - all of a sudden it wasn’t a thing at all despite the fact that for thousands of years it’s actually been a thing that has kept our species alive as an evolution process
When they’d finished trashing that (and IMO) failed the “super immunity” combo of post infection immunity and a vaccine was pushed as another incentive to get the vaccine
None of it passed the sniff test for me - it wasn’t science it was anti science and anti evolution…..
Oh yeah it was “the science”
When they’d finished trashing that (and IMO) failed the “super immunity” combo of post infection immunity and a vaccine was pushed as another incentive to get the vaccine
None of it passed the sniff test for me - it wasn’t science it was anti science and anti evolution…..
Oh yeah it was “the science”
OddCat said:
Elysium said:
I didn’t want the booster at the time and I regret being bullied into having it.
By whom were you bullied and in what way ? Bullied is a very strong word. As opposed to 'pursuaded' or 'guilt tripped' or 'cajoled' or 'emotionally blackmailed'....
I had COVID at the end of 2021 and was basically as immune as it was possible for anyone to be. But the Govt decided everyone had to have boosters and 6 months after my second jab they declared me to be unvaccinated. My COVID passport status actually changed and I needed that to travel for work.
Having done everything that was asked of me I felt pretty aggrieved with this and wrote to my MP to ask what benefit I would derive from the booster having just been infected.
He asked colleagues in Govt and was unable to provide me with any reason why it was required.
Looking at the info I could see that the main risk from mRNA was for younger age groups. So I caved into the bullying and went along with it.
I had zero side effects, but still resent being coerced.
r3g said:
andyA700 said:
If you are been told that you cannot go to certain places unless you have the vaccine, or that you will lose your job if you don't get vaccinated, then I would say that goes a lot further than cajoling or emotional blackmailing - it is in fact actual blackmailing and abuse.
Agreed. But people still had the choice whether to submit to their blackmail demands for an easy life, or whether to stand firm, say no and deal with whatever fall-out or inconveniences to their life that may come as a result of that.decision. Sadly, a lot of those people who took the easy path have now paid with their life or are having to live with varying scales of pain and disabilities from the vaxx damage for the rest of their lives.Every single person complicit in pushing these questionable substances should be doing life in jail imo, and that includes most of the GPs and nurses.
andyA700 said:
r3g said:
andyA700 said:
If you are been told that you cannot go to certain places unless you have the vaccine, or that you will lose your job if you don't get vaccinated, then I would say that goes a lot further than cajoling or emotional blackmailing - it is in fact actual blackmailing and abuse.
Agreed. But people still had the choice whether to submit to their blackmail demands for an easy life, or whether to stand firm, say no and deal with whatever fall-out or inconveniences to their life that may come as a result of that.decision. Sadly, a lot of those people who took the easy path have now paid with their life or are having to live with varying scales of pain and disabilities from the vaxx damage for the rest of their lives.Every single person complicit in pushing these questionable substances should be doing life in jail imo, and that includes most of the GPs and nurses.
I don't think for a minute we should be imprisoning vast numbers of NHS staff but that should be a possibility for the most senior people involved in the decision making. Many of the staff have been trained to follow the instructions and you will have a very short career in the NHS if you challenge their standards at any time, starting with your training. It is laughably held up as a gold standard in all aspects of patient care and has a bunch of governing enforcers to help perpetuate that myth as well as maintain professional standards.
I have concerns that not enough senior medics and scientists stood up to be counted. At all levels, they are a not a group with a great history when it comes to refusing to carry out orders, which is a concern given their high level of power, control and influence over so many people. If anyone should be in a dock then I'd start with Whitty and Vallance.
Not wanting to evoke Godwin but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
RemarkLima said:
Not wanting to evoke Godwin but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
Yes, very good post. Personally I don't want to live in a society without rules, but on the other hand, I think that a society where corruption is commonplace can be even worse.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
RemarkLima said:
...
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
What do we think of soldiers who were "just following orders"? What should they do, and what happens if they don't?Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
Why is the NHS an exception? Should it be?
grumbledoak said:
RemarkLima said:
...
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
What do we think of soldiers who were "just following orders"? What should they do, and what happens if they don't?Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
Why is the NHS an exception? Should it be?
RemarkLima said:
Not wanting to evoke Godwin but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
I think Aschs conformity experiment also helps to explain why people acted as they did. Most of us will disregard the evidence of our own eyes to avoid disagreeing with the group and standing out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
andyA700 said:
RemarkLima said:
Not wanting to evoke Godwin but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
Yes, very good post. Personally I don't want to live in a society without rules, but on the other hand, I think that a society where corruption is commonplace can be even worse.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
I have a high "sceptical" level my job used to involve people lying to me or trying to get one over. The main issue I saw with Covid initially was that little was said about age stratification save for it affects all age groups, the laughable videos from China of people falling over, the fact that our pandemic plan was torn up, the clear historic evidence that such virus cannot be "stopped", the clear panic in the major Govt which i still suspect was borne from that they were told or strong possibility it was a man made virus and likely a of military grade.
It was pretty clear that we all were going to get it at some stage and I do understand that the govt would want to try and free up capacity in hospitals etc but this never materialised - in fact hospital spokesperson lied about this, there was lies about "natural immunity" and "recovered immunity" which we should all know from basic biology is a thing and how humans have survived since the dawn of our time.
So we are at a stage that individuals without any compulsion are starting to adjust their lives to limit possible exposure (slowing down) by more hand washing, limiting face to face meetings, not shopping so much, ect. We did this as an office out of our own thinking about lets be careful.
Its there we should have stopped. But the panic really set in when BOJO went ill - overnight the narrative changed from the govt from self protection to Govt will mandate your lives. They then surrounded themselves with the right science who shut out, de-platformed any conflicting thoughts - this is where our Govt BS detection should have been going off but they went further and harder - Heck even Labour which should be a balancing view point went apes
te harder, longer, faster rather then actually question and slow things down.Civil freedoms and rights which have been fought for in this country and built up of centuries were taken away with little more then a whimper - the rule of law was basterdiszed and having been a lawyer and proud of our legal system Im now ashamed of this aspect.
Our police were little less then SS jackbooted thugs making stuff up as they went, encouraged by the Govt with "Laws & Guidence and Wishes". Where were Liberty or the Liberal party to champion peoples freedoms in this country? they FRO didnt they. Why did the police which is a civil police - policed by the people - why did they not question what they were being told.
We then started down the view that anyone questioning Govt policy was "dangerous" and should be shamed, coerced and forced to have the vaccine. It was not even a vaccine in the normal sense either as clearly it didnt stop transmission yet this is what the govt said it would do. There appeared to be another addenda for them wanting ALL people to get it. Byt this time my BS meter was off the scale - none of this made sense, anyone questioning this was vilified, we had a 2 tier society, in Europe they were regressing back to what Hitler did.
Vax passports - I thought just some clearly identifiable marker on those that weren't would have been much easier say a big yellow star they had to wear then shops could not serve them and people in the street shun them much quicker.
The govt is who I hold most hatred for now for allowing the lack of balance, thought and planning to happen - but even more so with an un-reversable medical interventions and the predictable consequences of the "cure" being worse then the disease.
“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
? George Orwell, 1984
Hiding behind - we were ordered to do it - didnt cut it in 1939. Do I blame individual doctors/nurses? Im not happy with the ones that actually pushed for them but I do our leaders who implemented the policy and direction of travel and their failings to question how this impacts our liberty and subsequent. They do deserve to be tarred and feathered at the very least.
Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 18th June 08:53
Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 18th June 08:58
RemarkLima said:
That was the point of the Milgram experiment... Just following orders is a baked in human condition. So, regardless of what people think, it's what people do.
That was the point of my last question. We do understand this, so we have explicit laws for soldiers ordered to commit war crimes. Why should we make an exception for medical staff?grumbledoak said:
RemarkLima said:
That was the point of the Milgram experiment... Just following orders is a baked in human condition. So, regardless of what people think, it's what people do.
That was the point of my last question. We do understand this, so we have explicit laws for soldiers ordered to commit war crimes. Why should we make an exception for medical staff?grumbledoak said:
RemarkLima said:
That was the point of the Milgram experiment... Just following orders is a baked in human condition. So, regardless of what people think, it's what people do.
That was the point of my last question. We do understand this, so we have explicit laws for soldiers ordered to commit war crimes. Why should we make an exception for medical staff?OddCat said:
I get how the jab averse felt. I was one and I think we all roughly felt the same. I also prettymuch know how the jab zealots felt who were all excited and righteous about it. What interests me is how the hesitant made the decision to jump either way.
Well, this probably won't be a popular opinion but on my part, I'm still quite comfortable with getting the thing (certainly the initial 2 doses) and told people re the vaccines more or less from the start - if over 50, get it for your own good but if you're happy with the risk then so be it, over 40 probably get it but you likely are better off without the AZN one. above 30, not really an issue either way, below 30 probably not a good idea but wouldn't blame anyone for just not bothering with the hassle. While the booster thing was mildly irritating given I didn't think it was going to do any 'good' so to speak, I wouldn't call it 'bullying' per se but more that I couldn't be arsed to go through the testing rigmarole otherwise and there was no evidence then (or now, at least for me, others I'm sure disagree) to prove it was actively a bad thing.
Either way, it was still piss poor from the authorities to have been actively pressing all and sundry to be jabbing up and threatening all kinds of idiotic potential measures against the non-compliant and the scale of backlash from that is still (and will be long in the future) being seen unfortunately wrt to other pharmaceutical interventions.
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