CV19 - Cure Worse Than The Disease? (Vol 19)
Discussion
Agree with both posts above - the other thing for me was the media and political destruction of any possibility of “post infection immunity” - they had no idea how many people had recovered from C-19 but dismissed “natural immunity” - all of a sudden it wasn’t a thing at all despite the fact that for thousands of years it’s actually been a thing that has kept our species alive as an evolution process
When they’d finished trashing that (and IMO) failed the “super immunity” combo of post infection immunity and a vaccine was pushed as another incentive to get the vaccine
None of it passed the sniff test for me - it wasn’t science it was anti science and anti evolution…..
Oh yeah it was “the science”
When they’d finished trashing that (and IMO) failed the “super immunity” combo of post infection immunity and a vaccine was pushed as another incentive to get the vaccine
None of it passed the sniff test for me - it wasn’t science it was anti science and anti evolution…..
Oh yeah it was “the science”
OddCat said:
Elysium said:
I didn’t want the booster at the time and I regret being bullied into having it.
By whom were you bullied and in what way ? Bullied is a very strong word. As opposed to 'pursuaded' or 'guilt tripped' or 'cajoled' or 'emotionally blackmailed'....
I had COVID at the end of 2021 and was basically as immune as it was possible for anyone to be. But the Govt decided everyone had to have boosters and 6 months after my second jab they declared me to be unvaccinated. My COVID passport status actually changed and I needed that to travel for work.
Having done everything that was asked of me I felt pretty aggrieved with this and wrote to my MP to ask what benefit I would derive from the booster having just been infected.
He asked colleagues in Govt and was unable to provide me with any reason why it was required.
Looking at the info I could see that the main risk from mRNA was for younger age groups. So I caved into the bullying and went along with it.
I had zero side effects, but still resent being coerced.
r3g said:
andyA700 said:
If you are been told that you cannot go to certain places unless you have the vaccine, or that you will lose your job if you don't get vaccinated, then I would say that goes a lot further than cajoling or emotional blackmailing - it is in fact actual blackmailing and abuse.
Agreed. But people still had the choice whether to submit to their blackmail demands for an easy life, or whether to stand firm, say no and deal with whatever fall-out or inconveniences to their life that may come as a result of that.decision. Sadly, a lot of those people who took the easy path have now paid with their life or are having to live with varying scales of pain and disabilities from the vaxx damage for the rest of their lives.Every single person complicit in pushing these questionable substances should be doing life in jail imo, and that includes most of the GPs and nurses.
andyA700 said:
r3g said:
andyA700 said:
If you are been told that you cannot go to certain places unless you have the vaccine, or that you will lose your job if you don't get vaccinated, then I would say that goes a lot further than cajoling or emotional blackmailing - it is in fact actual blackmailing and abuse.
Agreed. But people still had the choice whether to submit to their blackmail demands for an easy life, or whether to stand firm, say no and deal with whatever fall-out or inconveniences to their life that may come as a result of that.decision. Sadly, a lot of those people who took the easy path have now paid with their life or are having to live with varying scales of pain and disabilities from the vaxx damage for the rest of their lives.Every single person complicit in pushing these questionable substances should be doing life in jail imo, and that includes most of the GPs and nurses.
I don't think for a minute we should be imprisoning vast numbers of NHS staff but that should be a possibility for the most senior people involved in the decision making. Many of the staff have been trained to follow the instructions and you will have a very short career in the NHS if you challenge their standards at any time, starting with your training. It is laughably held up as a gold standard in all aspects of patient care and has a bunch of governing enforcers to help perpetuate that myth as well as maintain professional standards.
I have concerns that not enough senior medics and scientists stood up to be counted. At all levels, they are a not a group with a great history when it comes to refusing to carry out orders, which is a concern given their high level of power, control and influence over so many people. If anyone should be in a dock then I'd start with Whitty and Vallance.
Not wanting to evoke Godwin but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
RemarkLima said:
Not wanting to evoke Godwin but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
Yes, very good post. Personally I don't want to live in a society without rules, but on the other hand, I think that a society where corruption is commonplace can be even worse.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
RemarkLima said:
...
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
What do we think of soldiers who were "just following orders"? What should they do, and what happens if they don't?Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
Why is the NHS an exception? Should it be?
grumbledoak said:
RemarkLima said:
...
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
What do we think of soldiers who were "just following orders"? What should they do, and what happens if they don't?Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
Why is the NHS an exception? Should it be?
RemarkLima said:
Not wanting to evoke Godwin but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
I think Aschs conformity experiment also helps to explain why people acted as they did. Most of us will disregard the evidence of our own eyes to avoid disagreeing with the group and standing out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
andyA700 said:
RemarkLima said:
Not wanting to evoke Godwin but...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
Yes, very good post. Personally I don't want to live in a society without rules, but on the other hand, I think that a society where corruption is commonplace can be even worse.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment?w...
Simply, we're part of a larger society and will largely follow orders or a figure of authority... The reason that we can drive at 60mph and be confident that someone isn't just going to drive on the other side of the road because that's what they fancy
Similarly to state that people are fools or weakness or whatever to not want to do something, but do it anyways, is disingenuous. Again, we're hardwired to function as a society, and to contribute to that social contract. What is being described is chaos... To an extreme point, and going down that route, I'll not pay taxes, I'll just steal anything I want, I'll just take from society. It's like some Mad Max dystopia.
Yes, some senior decision makers need to be held to account, but the vast majority were "just following orders" which we do on a constant basis.
I have a high "sceptical" level my job used to involve people lying to me or trying to get one over. The main issue I saw with Covid initially was that little was said about age stratification save for it affects all age groups, the laughable videos from China of people falling over, the fact that our pandemic plan was torn up, the clear historic evidence that such virus cannot be "stopped", the clear panic in the major Govt which i still suspect was borne from that they were told or strong possibility it was a man made virus and likely a of military grade.
It was pretty clear that we all were going to get it at some stage and I do understand that the govt would want to try and free up capacity in hospitals etc but this never materialised - in fact hospital spokesperson lied about this, there was lies about "natural immunity" and "recovered immunity" which we should all know from basic biology is a thing and how humans have survived since the dawn of our time.
So we are at a stage that individuals without any compulsion are starting to adjust their lives to limit possible exposure (slowing down) by more hand washing, limiting face to face meetings, not shopping so much, ect. We did this as an office out of our own thinking about lets be careful.
Its there we should have stopped. But the panic really set in when BOJO went ill - overnight the narrative changed from the govt from self protection to Govt will mandate your lives. They then surrounded themselves with the right science who shut out, de-platformed any conflicting thoughts - this is where our Govt BS detection should have been going off but they went further and harder - Heck even Labour which should be a balancing view point went apes
te harder, longer, faster rather then actually question and slow things down.Civil freedoms and rights which have been fought for in this country and built up of centuries were taken away with little more then a whimper - the rule of law was basterdiszed and having been a lawyer and proud of our legal system Im now ashamed of this aspect.
Our police were little less then SS jackbooted thugs making stuff up as they went, encouraged by the Govt with "Laws & Guidence and Wishes". Where were Liberty or the Liberal party to champion peoples freedoms in this country? they FRO didnt they. Why did the police which is a civil police - policed by the people - why did they not question what they were being told.
We then started down the view that anyone questioning Govt policy was "dangerous" and should be shamed, coerced and forced to have the vaccine. It was not even a vaccine in the normal sense either as clearly it didnt stop transmission yet this is what the govt said it would do. There appeared to be another addenda for them wanting ALL people to get it. Byt this time my BS meter was off the scale - none of this made sense, anyone questioning this was vilified, we had a 2 tier society, in Europe they were regressing back to what Hitler did.
Vax passports - I thought just some clearly identifiable marker on those that weren't would have been much easier say a big yellow star they had to wear then shops could not serve them and people in the street shun them much quicker.
The govt is who I hold most hatred for now for allowing the lack of balance, thought and planning to happen - but even more so with an un-reversable medical interventions and the predictable consequences of the "cure" being worse then the disease.
“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
? George Orwell, 1984
Hiding behind - we were ordered to do it - didnt cut it in 1939. Do I blame individual doctors/nurses? Im not happy with the ones that actually pushed for them but I do our leaders who implemented the policy and direction of travel and their failings to question how this impacts our liberty and subsequent. They do deserve to be tarred and feathered at the very least.
Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 18th June 08:53
Edited by superlightr on Tuesday 18th June 08:58
RemarkLima said:
That was the point of the Milgram experiment... Just following orders is a baked in human condition. So, regardless of what people think, it's what people do.
That was the point of my last question. We do understand this, so we have explicit laws for soldiers ordered to commit war crimes. Why should we make an exception for medical staff?grumbledoak said:
RemarkLima said:
That was the point of the Milgram experiment... Just following orders is a baked in human condition. So, regardless of what people think, it's what people do.
That was the point of my last question. We do understand this, so we have explicit laws for soldiers ordered to commit war crimes. Why should we make an exception for medical staff?grumbledoak said:
RemarkLima said:
That was the point of the Milgram experiment... Just following orders is a baked in human condition. So, regardless of what people think, it's what people do.
That was the point of my last question. We do understand this, so we have explicit laws for soldiers ordered to commit war crimes. Why should we make an exception for medical staff?OddCat said:
I get how the jab averse felt. I was one and I think we all roughly felt the same. I also prettymuch know how the jab zealots felt who were all excited and righteous about it. What interests me is how the hesitant made the decision to jump either way.
Well, this probably won't be a popular opinion but on my part, I'm still quite comfortable with getting the thing (certainly the initial 2 doses) and told people re the vaccines more or less from the start - if over 50, get it for your own good but if you're happy with the risk then so be it, over 40 probably get it but you likely are better off without the AZN one. above 30, not really an issue either way, below 30 probably not a good idea but wouldn't blame anyone for just not bothering with the hassle. While the booster thing was mildly irritating given I didn't think it was going to do any 'good' so to speak, I wouldn't call it 'bullying' per se but more that I couldn't be arsed to go through the testing rigmarole otherwise and there was no evidence then (or now, at least for me, others I'm sure disagree) to prove it was actively a bad thing.
Either way, it was still piss poor from the authorities to have been actively pressing all and sundry to be jabbing up and threatening all kinds of idiotic potential measures against the non-compliant and the scale of backlash from that is still (and will be long in the future) being seen unfortunately wrt to other pharmaceutical interventions.
RemarkLima said:
Apologies, read it the wrong way round. With soldiers, aren't they exempt from prosecution if they are following orders? And it's the generals, leaders and upper echelons that are prosecuted for war crimes? The rank and file are generally understood to have "just been following orders"? I'm not even an honorary member of the 58th Chairborne Division like most of the internet so not sure how this works and if there's differences for war time vs peace time etc...
no."only following orders" is famously no defence. They are obliged to refuse to perform war cimes.
grumbledoak said:
no.
"only following orders" is famously no defence. They are obliged to refuse to perform war cimes.
What if they do not know nor think what they are doing is war crimes? If a medic is giving you an injection that they believe is "safe and effective", is that different to the military unit that is told to destroy a convoy / village / town. This later turns out to be civilian and of no threat... Or was known to those giving order that it was no threat, but not to those performing the destruction?"only following orders" is famously no defence. They are obliged to refuse to perform war cimes.
My laboured point is that a nurse, who has been giving vaccines to thousands of people per year, of all kinds and all ages, is asked to give another vaccine to people. They have been told it's OK, they believe it's OK, everything is telling the everyone is all OK, why would they question it?
ETA: I do know a nurse who chose early retirement rather than give out the unapproved vaccines - but they had a choice as could retire and throw in the towel. Like many others, if you have a family to feed, the options to become limited.
Edited by RemarkLima on Tuesday 18th June 12:01
I was skeptical from the start, didn't like the way is was miraculously discovered in such a short time, then like others on here, wasn't convinced about the testing.
Blood clot stories came along quite soon and Mrs UIF has family history of blood clots so that was it.
My GP then told me not to have it. The GP practice has never done a jab, the answerphone message told you to ring some helpline for the nearest vax centre and the practice has never sent anyone I know a reminder.
Blood clot stories came along quite soon and Mrs UIF has family history of blood clots so that was it.
My GP then told me not to have it. The GP practice has never done a jab, the answerphone message told you to ring some helpline for the nearest vax centre and the practice has never sent anyone I know a reminder.
RemarkLima said:
What if they do not know nor think what they are doing is war crimes? If a medic is giving you an injection that they believe is "safe and effective", is that different to the military unit that is told to destroy a convoy / village / town. This later turns out to be civilian and of no threat... Or was known to those giving order that it was no threat, but not to those performing the destruction?
My laboured point is that a nurse, who has been giving vaccines to thousands of people per year, of all kinds and all ages, is asked to give another vaccine to people. They have been told it's OK, they believe it's OK, everything is telling the everyone is all OK, why would they question it?
ETA: I do know a nurse who chose early retirement rather than give out the unapproved vaccines - but they had a choice as could retire and throw in the towel. Like many others, if you have a family to feed, the options to become limited.
Well, they should question it, and as you know some did. My point was only that medics should not have or expect blanket immunity. No-one should get that.My laboured point is that a nurse, who has been giving vaccines to thousands of people per year, of all kinds and all ages, is asked to give another vaccine to people. They have been told it's OK, they believe it's OK, everything is telling the everyone is all OK, why would they question it?
ETA: I do know a nurse who chose early retirement rather than give out the unapproved vaccines - but they had a choice as could retire and throw in the towel. Like many others, if you have a family to feed, the options to become limited.
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