47th President of the United States

[BigMon]

isaldiri said:

Is it 'trying to present the positives of someone' or simply pointing out some of the negative claims are somewhat exaggerated and being expected to be believed simply because that someone is 'bad'.....?

Do you think he incited insurrection or not? I suppose the attempted takeover of Capitol Hill was pure coincidence.

[isaldiri]

Yes countering ludicrous criticism of Biden is perfectly reasonable but when pointing out some of the criticism of Trump is at minimum being somewhat exaggerated, that's just.... totally wrong....

[paulguitar]

isaldiri said:

Yes countering ludicrous criticism of Biden is perfectly reasonable but when pointing out some of the criticism of Trump is at minimum being somewhat exaggerated, that's just.... totally wrong....

Most of the criticism is fully justified, but anyway, why on earth would you want to defend that wkpuffin?

[isaldiri]

BigMon said:

isaldiri said:

Is it 'trying to present the positives of someone' or simply pointing out some of the negative claims are somewhat exaggerated and being expected to be believed simply because that someone is 'bad'.....?

Do you think he incited insurrection or not? I suppose the attempted takeover of Capitol Hill was pure coincidence.

I don't think that had any relevance whatsoever to how badly or otherwise Trump mismanaged covid compared to his successor nor whether he was somehow able to be responsible for 400k covid deaths as being claimed when the covid death toll at the end of Jan 2021 was 430k.

And I've said earlier in this thread Trump should probably be locked up with the key thrown away. Doesn't change my earlier points either.

paulguitar said:

isaldiri said:

Yes countering ludicrous criticism of Biden is perfectly reasonable but when pointing out some of the criticism of Trump is at minimum being somewhat exaggerated, that's just.... totally wrong....

Most of the criticism is fully justified, but anyway, why on earth would you want to defend that wkpuffin?

er... because pointing out a claim made by a poster is quite obviously exaggerated or incorrect isn't 'defending anyone' wkpuffin or otherwise? You might think that levelling anything negative irrespective of accuracy at someone because you dislike the guy is fine. I don't particularly think so.

[paulguitar]

isaldiri said:

er... because pointing out a claim made by a poster is quite obviously exaggerated or incorrect isn't 'defending anyone' wkpuffin or otherwise? You might think that levelling anything negative irrespective of accuracy at someone because you dislike the guy is fine. I don't particularly think so.

It's not really about 'dislike', that really diminishes it and makes it appear petty. It's so, so much more profound than that.

You see, I love the US. Mrs Guitar is American, I've been there for most of my adult life, working for American employers. trump has tried to destroy it and continues to do so. So maybe in some way your standing up if you feel he's been unfairly criticised has some sort of logic to it, but he's just such an extraordinarily horrendous person to choose as someone to white knight for, that I find it perplexing.

[Baroque attacks]

g4ry13 said:

Uh-huh....when you're losing, play the man and not the ball

Im quite happy not being aligned with someone who is trying to justify Trump’s bleach suggestion.



I see the full Covid team have come to visit, facts incoming

[isaldiri]

paulguitar said:

isaldiri said:

er... because pointing out a claim made by a poster is quite obviously exaggerated or incorrect isn't 'defending anyone' wkpuffin or otherwise? You might think that levelling anything negative irrespective of accuracy at someone because you dislike the guy is fine. I don't particularly think so.

It's not really about 'dislike', that really diminishes it and makes it appear petty. It's so, so much more profound than that.

You see, I love the US. Mrs Guitar is American, I've been there for most of my adult life, working for American employers. trump has tried to destroy it and continues to do so. So maybe in some way your standing up if you feel he's been unfairly criticised has some sort of logic to it, but he's just such an extraordinarily horrendous person to choose as someone to white knight for, that I find it perplexing.

'white knighting' and 'standing up for trump being unfairly criticised' is your description of what one is doing when pointing out obvious inaccuracies and exaggerations? Right.....

Unlike you, I don't see how doing the same thing as Trump himself has regularly done in reverse to distort and exaggerate anything negative about Trump irrespective of reality as being in any way a good or reasonable thing to be doing. We'll have to agree to disagree about that clearly.

[Byker28i]

isaldiri said:

Byker28i said:

Unhinged, Obsessive trump hate - listen to yourself.

Nope - because the deaths didn't suddenly magically stop when Biden became president, but the damage was done by them with trump sewn mistrust into the vaccine.

https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2021/11/new-r...

Ah, so even though the next year when Biden had direct control over health policy, he oversaw more covid deaths and around the same number of excess deaths even with the vaccines, it's all down to trump and nothing at all down to his successor.

BigMon said:

I've been reading the last few pages of this thread in disbelief.

I think it speaks volumes for the state of US politics that these two old duffers are running again but I find it staggering that anyone would like to see Trump get in again and think it a good thing for the US and the world in general.

It's one thing holding a contrary opinion, it's something different entirely trying to present the positives of someone who should be in jail for attempting to incite insurrection.

Is it 'trying to present the positives of someone' or simply pointing out some of the negative claims are somewhat exaggerated and being expected to be believed simply because that someone is 'bad'.....?

Yup, because as has been said many times are you are deliberately ignoring, the damage had been done by then, a complete mistrust in the vaccine by GOP/Maga supporters.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/political-part...
https://www.npr.org/2023/07/25/1189939229/covid-de...

Anyway - I'm out - absolutely pointless going all over this again. The evidence is out there if you chose to take your head out the sand.
https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/covid-19/political-part...

Edited by Byker28i on Friday 15th March 13:57

[Byker28i]

isaldiri said:

Yes countering ludicrous criticism of Biden is perfectly reasonable but when pointing out some of the criticism of Trump is at minimum being somewhat exaggerated, that's just.... totally wrong....

It's not exaggerated and links have been given to prove to you the argument, it's just you won't read them.

...the day after he was inaugurated, President Biden released a national strategy for beating COVID-19. The 200-page document was hailed as "encouraging" and "well-constructed" — a pandemic exit blueprint that had not been articulated by the trump administration before it.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2022/01/...

You'll notice the reports mention the 60m who refused to take a vaccine, largely republicans.
Also trumps antivax tweets were taken serious by his cult
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/...

Then after he left office he was trying to discourage vaccine take up so Biden didn't get credit
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2021/06/donald-tru...

Really not sure why we have to do this all over again - it's well documented

Edited by Byker28i on Friday 15th March 13:56

[isaldiri]

Byker28i said:

It's not exaggerated and links have been given to prove to you the argument, it's just you won't read them.

And if you actually read all the links and the underying medical reports rather than just jump on headlines that suit what you believe, you will also find that they don't quite say what you are claiming. Speak for yourself first if you're going to talk about heads in the sand.

[Byker28i]

isaldiri said:

Byker28i said:

It's not exaggerated and links have been given to prove to you the argument, it's just you won't read them.

And if you actually read all the links and the underying medical reports rather than just jump on headlines that suit what you believe, you will also find that they don't quite say what you are claiming. Speak for yourself first if you're going to talk about heads in the sand.

Pointless discussing with you, I've just read your vaccine denial posts...

[isaldiri]

Byker28i said:

isaldiri said:

Byker28i said:

It's not exaggerated and links have been given to prove to you the argument, it's just you won't read them.

And if you actually read all the links and the underying medical reports rather than just jump on headlines that suit what you believe, you will also find that they don't quite say what you are claiming. Speak for yourself first if you're going to talk about heads in the sand.

Pointless discussing with you, I've just read your vaccine denial posts...

Ah joining the captain_cynic bandwagon of just making up lies I see. Well done you.

Point me to a single 'vaccine denial' post I have ever made. I have repeatedly stated that they were a very good thing for the elderly but had no good reason to be mandated or required for the younger age groups. Especially under 30s because the balance of risks was far from clear at that point. I'll wait for how you are going to spin that as 'vaccine denial'.

[BigMon]

isaldiri said:

And I've said earlier in this thread Trump should probably be locked up with the key thrown away. Doesn't change my earlier points either.

Well I agree with both of the above. I think the actual facts about Trump make it clear how toxic he is without having to embellish anything.

And, to reiterate my stance, I think it is beyond ridiculous that the best individuals both parties can put forward are both laughably terrible. If it was a banana republic I might find it amusing but it's not when it's the most powerful country on earth.

[Roderick Spode]

isaldiri said:

Ah joining the captain_cynic bandwagon of just making up lies I see. Well done you.

Welcome to what masquerades as debate on the various POTUS threads. Join the narrative or be labelled as a loon, or in your case one of the "usual nutters".

Hence why I don't bother with the 45/46 threads, and I'm reminded why on this thread.

[captain_cynic]

Baroque attacks said:

Im quite happy not being aligned with someone who is trying to justify Trump’s bleach suggestion.



I see the full Covid team have come to visit, facts incoming

Yep... Never ceases to amaze me how people who continually act like idiots get all offended when you call them idiots.

[CraigyMc]

BigMon said:

I've been reading the last few pages of this thread in disbelief.

I think it speaks volumes for the state of US politics that these two old duffers are running again but I find it staggering that anyone would like to see Trump get in again and think it a good thing for the US and the world in general.

It's one thing holding a contrary opinion, it's something different entirely trying to present the positives of someone who should be in jail for attempting to incite insurrection.

My working theory is the crux of the appeal is that Trump's anti-establishment and anyone of any stripe who has a gripe against establishment is aligned that way.

Once that's your primary focus, it becomes easier to mentally rationalise Trump's negative press as being biased against him (and of course, that means against yourself). Most things get labelled as "smear campaign".

He does have an entertainment value (in saying outrageous things) that I think those who are disenfranchised find amusing, and given that you're going to lose either way, why not have someone amusing in that seat.

This ignores the people on the end of the bellcurve who are extremists/mentally ill.

I have a lot of sympathy for republicans who hold the republican values from, say, 20+ years ago. Their party is unrecogniseable at the moment, compared to what existed then.

[paulguitar]

isaldiri said:

'white knighting' and 'standing up for trump being unfairly criticised' is your description of what one is doing when pointing out obvious inaccuracies and exaggerations? Right.....

Unlike you, I don't see how doing the same thing as Trump himself has regularly done in reverse to distort and exaggerate anything negative about Trump irrespective of reality as being in any way a good or reasonable thing to be doing. We'll have to agree to disagree about that clearly.

I don't agree usually, that he is being unfairly criticised, and I'm perplexed that in any case, you'd put time and effort into defending someone hellbent on destroying his own country.

[isaldiri]

BigMon said:

I think the actual facts about Trump make it clear how toxic he is without having to embellish anything.

One might have thought that but equally, I suppose since there's no downside to said embellishment because one can always just brush it off as defending trump or white knighting when any exaggeration or misrepresentation gets pointed out so why not so so as well.....

[Byker28i]

Pence says he won't endorse or vote for trump.

So many people who have worked for him won't support him, says he'll be the worse president (again). So thats his

- VP
- Chief of Staff
- Defense Secretary (x2)
- Homeland Security Secretary (x2)
- National Security Advisor (x2)
- communications director (x3)
- lawyers (too many to count but sooo many)

[Carl_VivaEspana]

M.Pence and K.Harris are the political equivalent of talking into an empty room.