Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll

[pghstochaj]

FiF said:

sawman said:

86 said:

You can’t enter negotiations when someone is demanding 35%. Drop the claim and then enter negotiations like grown ups

why not? steve could just turn up anf negotiate in the room like the grown up public servant he is

To be fair the Government should turn up, dissect and ridicule the childish and inaccurate illiterate mathematical gymnastics that the BMA are using to try to justify the 35% then not share the contents of papers in a folder marked Govt offer on the cover but sit back and let the silence build.

Judging by the attitudes shown at times there'd then be a stamping of feet, a rolling on the floor like a toddler denied some sweeties in the shop and a walkout.

Still think the way forward is modelled on the Navy Medical cadet sponsorship. More financial and other assistance during school and training but a requirement for x years service afterwards. Fail to do that, every penny paid back plus interest.

That’s not how negotiations of this type play out, at all. You need to stop watching television dramas.

[86]

valiant said:

86 said:

Why should the Government do anything it’s the taxpayer who pays. It’s the unions causing the problems with ridiculous 35% demands. Let them lose pay and they can take responsibility for the excess deaths. Shameful behaviour

You said above they should negotiate like grown ups and then say why should the government do anything.

The government is the employer and should enter talks in good faith and open mind. Everyone with an ounce of sense knows that the 35% is an opening gambit and that they’ll never get it but you start high, load the rhetoric a bit and then accept something lower in the end. Which they will.

The only thing that is shameful is that doctors (and nurses for that matter) felt the need to ballot in the first place.

Name me one other group of workers that have demanded 35%!

[valiant]

86 said:

Name me one other group of workers that have demanded 35%!

It’s been explained why they’re asking for 35% numerous times.

It’s the OPENING bid in a negotiation. They know they’ll never get it but they may get eventually more than if they opened with 10% for instance.

It’s where they end up that’s important not where they start.

[pghstochaj]

86 said:

valiant said:

86 said:

Why should the Government do anything it’s the taxpayer who pays. It’s the unions causing the problems with ridiculous 35% demands. Let them lose pay and they can take responsibility for the excess deaths. Shameful behaviour

You said above they should negotiate like grown ups and then say why should the government do anything.

The government is the employer and should enter talks in good faith and open mind. Everyone with an ounce of sense knows that the 35% is an opening gambit and that they’ll never get it but you start high, load the rhetoric a bit and then accept something lower in the end. Which they will.

The only thing that is shameful is that doctors (and nurses for that matter) felt the need to ballot in the first place.

Name me one other group of workers that have demanded 35%!

You need to take a step back and understand the pay erosion that has happened to medics in order to understand where the headline figure has come from.

[frisbee]

valiant said:

86 said:

Name me one other group of workers that have demanded 35%!

It’s been explained why they’re asking for 35% numerous times.

It’s the OPENING bid in a negotiation. They know they’ll never get it but they may get eventually more than if they opened with 10% for instance.

It’s where they end up that’s important not where they start.

Followed by the second stage in the negotiations: the government saying they aren't going to negotiate until they drop their 35% demand.

It's not that complicated to understand, unless you're the government or a number of posters on PH.

[NuckyThompson]

pghstochaj said:

You need to take a step back and understand the pay erosion that has happened to medics in order to understand where the headline figure has come from.

Correct!

The frustration in these negotiations is that it takes a while to actually get to strike even after the vote has been passed.

You just get the impression the government isn’t even trying to negotiate and that appears to be so throughout the whole public sector

[272BHP]

FiF said:

Still think the way forward is modelled on the Navy Medical cadet sponsorship. More financial and other assistance during school and training but a requirement for x years service afterwards. Fail to do that, every penny paid back plus interest.

Something like this has to be part of the negotiations. Other parts of the military introduced something similar nearly 30 years ago - I remember signing it.

I would also take away their right to strike. What Covid taught us is that doctors and nurses are firmly part of critical infrastructure and should have similar contractual terms to the Police and the military.

[FiF]

pghstochaj said:

FiF said:

sawman said:

86 said:

You can’t enter negotiations when someone is demanding 35%. Drop the claim and then enter negotiations like grown ups

why not? steve could just turn up anf negotiate in the room like the grown up public servant he is

To be fair the Government should turn up, dissect and ridicule the childish and inaccurate illiterate mathematical gymnastics that the BMA are using to try to justify the 35% then not share the contents of papers in a folder marked Govt offer on the cover but sit back and let the silence build.

Judging by the attitudes shown at times there'd then be a stamping of feet, a rolling on the floor like a toddler denied some sweeties in the shop and a walkout.

Still think the way forward is modelled on the Navy Medical cadet sponsorship. More financial and other assistance during school and training but a requirement for x years service afterwards. Fail to do that, every penny paid back plus interest.

That’s not how negotiations of this type play out, at all. You need to stop watching television dramas.

Some negotiations are as childish as my not serious suggestions, seen it happen where there is no sensible dialogue to an offer, histrionics, walk out, external conference follows. No TV cameras or actors present.

So despite not serious, dissection of the 35% non logic. That needs to be done.

No comment on the suggestion re one way forward based on Navy model one notes. Presumably you think that's TV drama too.

[sawman]

86 said:

Name me one other group of workers that have demanded 35%!

how many other groups of workers only have one employer available in the uk, and have had their pay actively and intentionally eroded by 35% in the last 12 years (police aside - they are pretty much in the same boat but are not allowed to strike by law)

[motco]

pghstochaj said:

You need to take a step back and understand the pay erosion that has happened to medics.

Just as it has for the majority of the rest of the working population - private sector especially. What makes doctors special such that they can ride roughshod over the people who they are paid to treat and yet who cannot influence their remuneration in the slightest? The cold wind of financial pain blows over us all courtesy in large part of covid19 and Vladimir Putin.

[Dixy]

May I thank Fif and 86 for contributing to the NO side of the debate.
I would correct a few of their misconceptions.
This is far from political left wing posturing, most junior doctors are well to the right, the new leadership of the BMA felt horribly let down by the old guard when Hunt imposed his contract.
The doctors do have an alternative and that is go to Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc. They are and that is leaving vast shortfall in staff. This shortfall is being picked up by already overworked JDs.
One surprising outcome of 4 days strike is how well and happy the 2 JDs that are immediate members of my family are, this highlights how close to a crisis we are.
I am happily and comfortably early retired because I have been good at negotiating.
My advice to JDs would be come out and say Ok we are dropping our 35% pay demand as requested. It is now 47%, we ask for a 6% cut in working hours, there will be no strikes but we will work totally to rule, start at the contract time take all breaks when scheduled, leave on time. do no Locum work, not cover for absent colleagues or gaps in staffing.
Mr Barclay your call.

[gangzoom]

Dixy said:

we will work totally to rule, start at the contract time take all breaks when scheduled, leave on time. do no Locum work, not cover for absent colleagues or gaps in staffing.

Here I was thinking Medicine is still a professional vocation versus a contractor working to a time sheet .

The strength of feeling runs deep however, the sad bit is our future Consultants (ie those people making the important calls on our treatments).

https://www.reddit.com/r/JuniorDoctorsUK/

It's quite sad to see how disconnected the work force had become with central policy, ultimately we (all of will use the NHS at somepoint) are the ones who losses out. There really needs to be resolution to all of this, and soon.

[86]

valiant said:

86 said:

Name me one other group of workers that have demanded 35%!

It’s been explained why they’re asking for 35% numerous times.

It’s the OPENING bid in a negotiation. They know they’ll never get it but they may get eventually more than if they opened with 10% for instance.

It’s where they end up that’s important not where they start.

The BMA negotiate and act as if they were still at some left wing University. Now they are grown ups and apparently have entered a profession that cares about people they should show some leadership drop the 35% end the strikes and enter into negotiations that will end up settling around 6% with the odd bit of froth. At present however they don’t seem to have any grown ups in their ranks so no hope.

[86]

NuckyThompson said:

pghstochaj said:

You need to take a step back and understand the pay erosion that has happened to medics in order to understand where the headline figure has come from.

Correct!

The frustration in these negotiations is that it takes a while to actually get to strike even after the vote has been passed.

You just get the impression the government isn’t even trying to negotiate and that appears to be so throughout the whole public sector

It’s tax payers money that pays the wages. Unions have acted in a way where they openly want to bring down the government so Sunak should play the long long hand. You can’t give in to such aggressive demands

[86]

pghstochaj said:

86 said:

valiant said:

86 said:

Why should the Government do anything it’s the taxpayer who pays. It’s the unions causing the problems with ridiculous 35% demands. Let them lose pay and they can take responsibility for the excess deaths. Shameful behaviour

You said above they should negotiate like grown ups and then say why should the government do anything.

The government is the employer and should enter talks in good faith and open mind. Everyone with an ounce of sense knows that the 35% is an opening gambit and that they’ll never get it but you start high, load the rhetoric a bit and then accept something lower in the end. Which they will.

The only thing that is shameful is that doctors (and nurses for that matter) felt the need to ballot in the first place.

Name me one other group of workers that have demanded 35%!

You need to take a step back and understand the pay erosion that has happened to medics in order to understand where the headline figure has come from.

So stop moaning if it’s so bad and find another job. There’s plenty out there

[Killboy]

pablo said:

Whereas the actual Health Secretary oversaw 133000 deaths during his tenure from a global pandemic he was hopelessly unprepared for despite it being number one in the national risk register, had an affair with an aide and broke several of his own Governments rules during lockdowns, aided friends and backers to make huge profits from VIP lane contracts, was labelled “fking hopeless” by his Boss and yet millions thought he was doing a good job…..

Dont forget the 10k a day consultation fees.

[86]

Dixy said:

May I thank Fif and 86 for contributing to the NO side of the debate.
I would correct a few of their misconceptions.
This is far from political left wing posturing, most junior doctors are well to the right, the new leadership of the BMA felt horribly let down by the old guard when Hunt imposed his contract.
The doctors do have an alternative and that is go to Australia, Canada, New Zealand, etc. They are and that is leaving vast shortfall in staff. This shortfall is being picked up by already overworked JDs.
One surprising outcome of 4 days strike is how well and happy the 2 JDs that are immediate members of my family are, this highlights how close to a crisis we are.
I am happily and comfortably early retired because I have been good at negotiating.
My advice to JDs would be come out and say Ok we are dropping our 35% pay demand as requested. It is now 47%, we ask for a 6% cut in working hours, there will be no strikes but we will work totally to rule, start at the contract time take all breaks when scheduled, leave on time. do no Locum work, not cover for absent colleagues or gaps in staffing.
Mr Barclay your call.

If they wish to go to Australia great it’s a lovely place just get on with it. I’m at the stage where if I had to go into hospital I’d be thinking how committed is that junior doctor to treating me they seem more interested in themselves in walking out, working to rule and demanding ridiculous pay awards. They act like a bunch of university students determined to bring down the government

[86]

sawman said:

86 said:

Name me one other group of workers that have demanded 35%!

how many other groups of workers only have one employer available in the uk, and have had their pay actively and intentionally eroded by 35% in the last 12 years (police aside - they are pretty much in the same boat but are not allowed to strike by law)

Well we have no doctors at our surgery who work full time for the NHS. They all do 1/2 days and the rest is private. The one employer thing is nonsense work in the private sector find another trade if it’s that bad

[jason61c]

Given the fact that nurses now do most of the heavy lifting. It’s quite shocking that doctors are after 35%, when it’s likely nurses will end up with less than 10%.

It’s total greed.

Surely doctors and nurses should get the same % increase?

[pghstochaj]

motco said:

pghstochaj said:

You need to take a step back and understand the pay erosion that has happened to medics.

Just as it has for the majority of the rest of the working population - private sector especially. What makes doctors special such that they can ride roughshod over the people who they are paid to treat and yet who cannot influence their remuneration in the slightest? The cold wind of financial pain blows over us all courtesy in large part of covid19 and Vladimir Putin.

I did the numbers a few pages back for consultants as an example as these are numbers and job terms I understand. The pay has been eroded far more than the U.K. average. I am sure you can do the same for junior doctors.

Doctors are not special, are they, many people strike to improve their pay or conditions.