Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
jshell said:
turbobloke said:
jshell said:
Tom8 said:
Tim Cognito said:
When it comes down to it, do you agree or disagree that vat on private school fees will have a positive effect on the children in state schools?
Yes some children will move into state schools but that means they get more funding (bums on seats money) which is a good thing as schools have a lot of fixed costs.
The children moving across will, on average, be from parents who give a s
t about their education and so will be a positive influence on behaviour etc.
The teachers from any private schools which do close can easily find work in a state school which benefits the shortage there.
Before I get roasted I'm not saying I agree with the policy or that it is right in this instance to negatively impact one group in order to positively impact another, but just playing devil's advocate on whether a kids in state schools will benefit and how much...
From first hand experience, from my daughter's private school which closed last year, a small portion of teachers went to the state sector and all have already left. This idea that it will transfer some of the success of private schooling into the state sector and will magically fix it is absolute tosh.Yes some children will move into state schools but that means they get more funding (bums on seats money) which is a good thing as schools have a lot of fixed costs.
The children moving across will, on average, be from parents who give a s
t about their education and so will be a positive influence on behaviour etc.The teachers from any private schools which do close can easily find work in a state school which benefits the shortage there.
Before I get roasted I'm not saying I agree with the policy or that it is right in this instance to negatively impact one group in order to positively impact another, but just playing devil's advocate on whether a kids in state schools will benefit and how much...
turbobloke said:
jshell said:
turbobloke said:
jshell said:
Tom8 said:
Tim Cognito said:
When it comes down to it, do you agree or disagree that vat on private school fees will have a positive effect on the children in state schools?
Yes some children will move into state schools but that means they get more funding (bums on seats money) which is a good thing as schools have a lot of fixed costs.
The children moving across will, on average, be from parents who give a st about their education and so will be a positive influence on behaviour etc.
The teachers from any private schools which do close can easily find work in a state school which benefits the shortage there.
Before I get roasted I'm not saying I agree with the policy or that it is right in this instance to negatively impact one group in order to positively impact another, but just playing devil's advocate on whether a kids in state schools will benefit and how much...
From first hand experience, from my daughter's private school which closed last year, a small portion of teachers went to the state sector and all have already left. This idea that it will transfer some of the success of private schooling into the state sector and will magically fix it is absolute tosh.Yes some children will move into state schools but that means they get more funding (bums on seats money) which is a good thing as schools have a lot of fixed costs.
The children moving across will, on average, be from parents who give a s
t about their education and so will be a positive influence on behaviour etc.The teachers from any private schools which do close can easily find work in a state school which benefits the shortage there.
Before I get roasted I'm not saying I agree with the policy or that it is right in this instance to negatively impact one group in order to positively impact another, but just playing devil's advocate on whether a kids in state schools will benefit and how much...
Tim Cognito said:
When it comes down to it, do you agree or disagree that vat on private school fees will have a positive effect on the children in state schools?
Yes some children will move into state schools but that means they get more funding (bums on seats money) which is a good thing as schools have a lot of fixed costs.
The children moving across will, on average, be from parents who give a st about their education and so will be a positive influence on behaviour etc.
The teachers from any private schools which do close can easily find work in a state school which benefits the shortage there.
Before I get roasted I'm not saying I agree with the policy or that it is right in this instance to negatively impact one group in order to positively impact another, but just playing devil's advocate on whether a kids in state schools will benefit and how much...
Yes some children will move into state schools but that means they get more funding (bums on seats money) which is a good thing as schools have a lot of fixed costs.
The children moving across will, on average, be from parents who give a s
t about their education and so will be a positive influence on behaviour etc.The teachers from any private schools which do close can easily find work in a state school which benefits the shortage there.
Before I get roasted I'm not saying I agree with the policy or that it is right in this instance to negatively impact one group in order to positively impact another, but just playing devil's advocate on whether a kids in state schools will benefit and how much...
Love your optimism...If you look at the stats and data, the scenario below probably what might be happening.
Some children will move into states, they will lose potentials due to overcrowding and disruption.
The children moving across will suffer, academically and socially.
Teachers who work in private, if they do lose their jobs, they will move into other sectors or would relocate overseas to teach. (Singapore, Japan, Emirates or China have already attracted such moves. Massive salaries and improvement on lifestyle too)
Lower pay, worse working conditions, worse conditions in general, all while getting nailed for tax as being a teacher you are partnof middle England. Or go expatting for a pay rise, swerve taxes and a better quality of life potentially to boot. A teacher would need to be in quite a corner to opt for the former. One's best hope is that the private school teachers who leave will soak up the expat jobs taking them from the better state school teachers meaning they stay.
It's the external shame of Britain that it has such a desire to reduce the prospects of the majority of children whether state or private with their obsession of equality meaning everyone losing.
It's the external shame of Britain that it has such a desire to reduce the prospects of the majority of children whether state or private with their obsession of equality meaning everyone losing.
DonkeyApple said:
Lower pay, worse working conditions, worse conditions in general, all while getting nailed for tax as being a teacher you are partnof middle England. Or go expatting for a pay rise, swerve taxes and a better quality of life potentially to boot. A teacher would need to be in quite a corner to opt for the former. One's best hope is that the private school teachers who leave will soak up the expat jobs taking them from the better state school teachers meaning they stay.
It's the external shame of Britain that it has such a desire to reduce the prospects of the majority of children whether state or private with their obsession of equality meaning everyone losing.
Yes, but I don't see the issue of obsessing over equality in mediocrity (as though it was desirable) afflicting both main parties equally, irony unintended.It's the external shame of Britain that it has such a desire to reduce the prospects of the majority of children whether state or private with their obsession of equality meaning everyone losing.
THIS
It wasn’t parents pushing to increase standards, as these were already very good (hence the demand). It was because their kids were largely little sts who were from affluent backgrounds but were disruptive, and whose parents had the worst entitled attitudes when senior leadership tried to enforce discipline.
It wasn’t the poor kids being tts, it was the rich ones.
It was reasons like this why my wife left, with other colleagues leaving too. Some went private, some took retirement and some went to schools in worse areas where they felt that if they were going to face st they would rather do it in an environment where they felt they could improve things.
Now I’m not saying this is across the board (my sons school is very similar but they keep discipline in check a lot better, because parents know that if their cherub is kicked out of there they are totally fked for alternatives), but if this is a case in point then there are surely many other similar examples across the country.
My eldest goes to a great state school in South London. As a school they follow the Birble singh (sorry about the spelling) methods. School is (unashamedly) academic and has very strict rules. Results are better than the local private schools and akin to the grammars locally. The catchement for the school is normal but encompasses largely socially challenging estates. This academic year I have had two sets of parents who swore they would never send their child to state school ask if they could borrow our address to get there child into the school. There are 2 outstanding secondaries between them and my eldests school.
I think we will hear a lot about "i cant get my child into a school" when in actual fact the point is that they cant get their child into the school they wish. My freinds think its terribly unfair. In part i agree, however there is a degree of entitlement to believe that you should just get what you want.
Fell for those with hard finance decisions to make however, also feel i have to point out.....
Could sell a playing field.
Work harder to afford.
Stop getting starbucks.
Miss out on one of your holidays.
etc.
It wasn’t parents pushing to increase standards, as these were already very good (hence the demand). It was because their kids were largely little sts who were from affluent backgrounds but were disruptive, and whose parents had the worst entitled attitudes when senior leadership tried to enforce discipline.
It wasn’t the poor kids being tts, it was the rich ones.
It was reasons like this why my wife left, with other colleagues leaving too. Some went private, some took retirement and some went to schools in worse areas where they felt that if they were going to face st they would rather do it in an environment where they felt they could improve things.
Now I’m not saying this is across the board (my sons school is very similar but they keep discipline in check a lot better, because parents know that if their cherub is kicked out of there they are totally fked for alternatives), but if this is a case in point then there are surely many other similar examples across the country.
My eldest goes to a great state school in South London. As a school they follow the Birble singh (sorry about the spelling) methods. School is (unashamedly) academic and has very strict rules. Results are better than the local private schools and akin to the grammars locally. The catchement for the school is normal but encompasses largely socially challenging estates. This academic year I have had two sets of parents who swore they would never send their child to state school ask if they could borrow our address to get there child into the school. There are 2 outstanding secondaries between them and my eldests school.
I think we will hear a lot about "i cant get my child into a school" when in actual fact the point is that they cant get their child into the school they wish. My freinds think its terribly unfair. In part i agree, however there is a degree of entitlement to believe that you should just get what you want.
Fell for those with hard finance decisions to make however, also feel i have to point out.....
Could sell a playing field.
Work harder to afford.
Stop getting starbucks.
Miss out on one of your holidays.
etc.
Amusingly the hoops and donations mates of mine have had to make to get into the local Catholic school for reception make the selection process for the private schools in the area look very straight forward and much more transparent and fair.
Pay or pray as they say in grotty London.
Pay or pray as they say in grotty London.
ooid said:
The children moving across will suffer, academically and socially.
Not necessarily. Those parents will still be able to afford a raft of private 1:1 tutoring out of school hours that provides excellent tailored outcomes. Not sure why going to a state school impacts social skills. Plenty of secondary schools have highly active social programs running from volunteering to DoE to debating clubs, etc. They aren't all a grim wasteland!
Our local secondaries are either outstanding or good, and have a very large array of extra curricular programs, attract very good teachers and have very good pupil outcomes...
vaud said:
Not necessarily. Those parents will still be able to afford a raft of private 1:1 tutoring out of school hours that provides excellent tailored outcomes.
Not sure why going to a state school impacts social skills. Plenty of secondary schools have highly active social programs running from volunteering to DoE to debating clubs, etc. They aren't all a grim wasteland!
Our local secondaries are either outstanding or good, and have a very large array of extra curricular programs, attract very good teachers and have very good pupil outcomes...
Would imagine that's not the case in much of the country. Not sure why going to a state school impacts social skills. Plenty of secondary schools have highly active social programs running from volunteering to DoE to debating clubs, etc. They aren't all a grim wasteland!
Our local secondaries are either outstanding or good, and have a very large array of extra curricular programs, attract very good teachers and have very good pupil outcomes...
okgo said:
vaud said:
Not necessarily. Those parents will still be able to afford a raft of private 1:1 tutoring out of school hours that provides excellent tailored outcomes.
Not sure why going to a state school impacts social skills. Plenty of secondary schools have highly active social programs running from volunteering to DoE to debating clubs, etc. They aren't all a grim wasteland!
Our local secondaries are either outstanding or good, and have a very large array of extra curricular programs, attract very good teachers and have very good pupil outcomes...
Would imagine that's not the case in much of the country. Not sure why going to a state school impacts social skills. Plenty of secondary schools have highly active social programs running from volunteering to DoE to debating clubs, etc. They aren't all a grim wasteland!
Our local secondaries are either outstanding or good, and have a very large array of extra curricular programs, attract very good teachers and have very good pupil outcomes...
jshell said:
Total pipe-dream for much of the country! Dunno where Vaud lives, but he should share the postcode.
Yorkshire. I'm not sharing my postcode but I pay council tax to Bradford, which will probably break some other PH myths.My underlying point is that parents that can broadly afford private today will be in a very comfortable position to pay for high end top up tutoring if they are forced into state system.
vaud said:
Yorkshire. I'm not sharing my postcode but I pay council tax to Bradford, which will probably break some other PH myths.
My underlying point is that parents that can broadly afford private today will be in a very comfortable position to pay for high end top up tutoring if they are forced into state system.
They're not going to accept whatever the local 'needs improvement' type situation that is near their house. It will not be some straight swap, if it were me I'd just move house to where there was a grammar or renowned state school. Many will do similar, and it will put pressure on those already sought after schools and because these people can probably pay to play and buy property in catchment it will cause an even tighter funnel of problems. My underlying point is that parents that can broadly afford private today will be in a very comfortable position to pay for high end top up tutoring if they are forced into state system.
okgo said:
vaud said:
Yorkshire. I'm not sharing my postcode but I pay council tax to Bradford, which will probably break some other PH myths.
My underlying point is that parents that can broadly afford private today will be in a very comfortable position to pay for high end top up tutoring if they are forced into state system.
They're not going to accept whatever the local 'needs improvement' type situation that is near their house. It will not be some straight swap, if it were me I'd just move house to where there was a grammar or renowned state school. Many will do similar, and it will put pressure on those already sought after schools and because these people can probably pay to play and buy property in catchment it will cause an even tighter funnel of problems. My underlying point is that parents that can broadly afford private today will be in a very comfortable position to pay for high end top up tutoring if they are forced into state system.
jshell said:
okgo said:
vaud said:
Yorkshire. I'm not sharing my postcode but I pay council tax to Bradford, which will probably break some other PH myths.
My underlying point is that parents that can broadly afford private today will be in a very comfortable position to pay for high end top up tutoring if they are forced into state system.
They're not going to accept whatever the local 'needs improvement' type situation that is near their house. It will not be some straight swap, if it were me I'd just move house to where there was a grammar or renowned state school. Many will do similar, and it will put pressure on those already sought after schools and because these people can probably pay to play and buy property in catchment it will cause an even tighter funnel of problems. My underlying point is that parents that can broadly afford private today will be in a very comfortable position to pay for high end top up tutoring if they are forced into state system.
Louis Balfour said:
jshell said:
okgo said:
vaud said:
Yorkshire. I'm not sharing my postcode but I pay council tax to Bradford, which will probably break some other PH myths.
My underlying point is that parents that can broadly afford private today will be in a very comfortable position to pay for high end top up tutoring if they are forced into state system.
They're not going to accept whatever the local 'needs improvement' type situation that is near their house. It will not be some straight swap, if it were me I'd just move house to where there was a grammar or renowned state school. Many will do similar, and it will put pressure on those already sought after schools and because these people can probably pay to play and buy property in catchment it will cause an even tighter funnel of problems. My underlying point is that parents that can broadly afford private today will be in a very comfortable position to pay for high end top up tutoring if they are forced into state system.
vaud said:
Our local secondaries are either outstanding or good, and have a very large array of extra curricular programs, attract very good teachers and have very good pupil outcomes...
Only 18% of the schools in England have achieved outstanding in 2022. So congratulations living in one of those areas though, pretty soon most locals might be priced out of such areas.The heatmaps below is easy enough to highlight level of educational quality drop in the near future, as it also highlights both grammar and independent schools in a given area.
https://www.locrating.com/heatmaps.aspx
Run a scenario of average redistribution of 20% of students from private to nearby state schools, and calculate the outcomes for the next 5 years, including lack of funding, teaching and facilities.
No, wait, the original policy inventors has not run such scenario based models yet?
Edited by ooid on Friday 14th June 17:57
ooid said:
Only 18% of the schools in England have achieved outstanding in 2022. So congratulations living in one of those areas though, pretty soon most locals might be priced out of such areas.
The heatmaps below is easy enough to highlight level of educational quality drop in the near future, as it also highlights both grammar and independent schools in a given area.
https://www.locrating.com/heatmaps.aspx
Run a scenario of average redistribution of 20% of students from private to nearby state schools, and calculate the outcomes for the next 5 years, including lack of funding, teaching and facilities.
No, wait, the original policy inventors has not run such scenario based models yet?
Telegraph ran an article today on the dearth of decent state schools in areas where there was high private schooling. The heatmaps below is easy enough to highlight level of educational quality drop in the near future, as it also highlights both grammar and independent schools in a given area.
https://www.locrating.com/heatmaps.aspx
Run a scenario of average redistribution of 20% of students from private to nearby state schools, and calculate the outcomes for the next 5 years, including lack of funding, teaching and facilities.
No, wait, the original policy inventors has not run such scenario based models yet?
Edited by ooid on Friday 14th June 17:57
The stats were eye opening. Many London boroughs with over 20% in private and over 50% in Kensington and Chelsea.
okgo said:
vaud said:
Yorkshire. I'm not sharing my postcode but I pay council tax to Bradford, which will probably break some other PH myths.
My underlying point is that parents that can broadly afford private today will be in a very comfortable position to pay for high end top up tutoring if they are forced into state system.
They're not going to accept whatever the local 'needs improvement' type situation that is near their house. It will not be some straight swap, if it were me I'd just move house to where there was a grammar or renowned state school. Many will do similar, and it will put pressure on those already sought after schools and because these people can probably pay to play and buy property in catchment it will cause an even tighter funnel of problems. My underlying point is that parents that can broadly afford private today will be in a very comfortable position to pay for high end top up tutoring if they are forced into state system.
S600BSB said:
Cheaper to just pay the VAT than move house. It’s what most of us will do.
Indeed but the 'moving home' element is what comes down the line when people with young children come to making the key decision as to how to educate their children. Those are the people who will be incentivised more now to bid up properties in key catchment areas, more so than has already been occurring for the last decade or more. Especially with WFH and t
t capabilities making it even easier to favour locating the home to benefit the children's schooling over the office commute. Especially when blokes realise that renting a flat in the centre of town that gets used just mid week with a couple of old uni mates is a hell of a lot more fun than spending hours commuting and costs barely two terms of fees in London. 
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