Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll

[spaximus]

Hants PHer said:

spaximus said:

<edited to highlight this comment>
All this talk about it being political is nonsense, most of the Dr's my daughter knows are not Labour supporters

I disagree; consider the dates of the next strike (27th June - 2nd July). Striking when an election is days away is a blatant piece of political activism, designed to remind people about the Nasty Tories on the eve of polling day. Junior doctors have allowed themselves to be manipulated by the BMA leadership, whatever the JD's own politics might be.

There's no chance of negotiations in that time frame and the BMA knows it. Meanwhile patients will suffer, again, due to BMA activism.

This has been going on for months. The HS agreed to go to binding mediation and then did not bother to turn up and sent people who just said that is the offer, which is not mediation.

They gave the Government a final opportunity to come to an agreement and they did not respond.

They called the strike giving the government enough time to settle before the election but as suspected all along they were simply kicking it down the road.

By going ahead with the strike they are sending a message to Labour that whoever is in power this will not end until they get a sensible resolution to their issues.

As others have said this is not just about pay, it is about trying to stop good medics leaving the NHS for better positions both in the Private sector and abroad. The pay restoration is a long term aim and as Scotland has shown a sensible policy can be agreed upon, however all three of the last HS in England have refused to give what Scotland did.

There may well be Labour supporters in the BMA but this is not about changing government it is about representing their members who have been treated badly by the Conservatives that they are leaving in record numbers.

I would suggest there are greater numbers of Labour supporters in the Management side who are a big part of the problems not the Dr's

We will see what Labour do as Starmer has staked a huge amount on reducing the NHS waiting lists and he cannot do that without the Dr's and medics it is that simple

[spaximus]

poo at Paul's said:

spaximus said:

poo at Paul's said:

S600BSB said:

ArmaghMan said:

Mrs. AM is a GP partner. Total hours she works bears no relation to her contracted sessions.
Most GPs we know are in exactly the same boat.
No life. Wouldn't wish it on Rishi Sunak ( and that's really saying something).

Same.

I am sure it is, but do you think the rest of the working population is that much different?
I have been in continuous employment for the last 36 years and nowadays, work means people want more work, done faster and for lower relative money than ever before.
My wife and I never take days off sick, even if we are, and I give up 6 days per year holiday every single year, out of 22 total. We get no overtime, no flexi days, and dont get paid holiday not taken.
And I am not alone in my business or indeed sector, this is the rather sad reality of working live for tens of millions nowadays.

The modern business sector has embraced technology that was designed to make life easier, but in reality has sadly made millions of us almost prisoners to their work and jobs.

I cannot understand anyone doing what you claim to do. If you are so afraid of loosing your job that you give up holidays etc then that suggests your employer is taking advantage of you and is probably why Union representation is still necessary in this day and age.

Where did i say we are worried about losing our jobs? Stop making things up

You wrote The modern business sector has embraced technology that was designed to make life easier, but in reality has sadly made millions of us almost prisoners to their work and jobs.

So it would appear you feel captive to the work and job from that statement. If you do not then why are you giving up so much to an employer?

I am genuinely confused

[Oliver Hardy]

Dixy said:

Oliver Hardy said:

carlo996 said:

loafer123 said:

12-15% and the NHS covering exam fees and training costs and it’s all sorted

Only if they sign a contract agreeing to 5+ years minimum before leaving the NHS. Otherwise they can buy themselves out.

But junior Doctors are not just 23 year olds who have just left uni, they are all Doctors who are not consultants,

Being totally clueless about the whole subject does not stop some thinking there view is correct

OK I am clueless, but it is what has been explained on TV

From the BBC

In reality, that term - junior doctor - covers someone fresh out of medical school right up to those with a decade or more of experience. And pay is complicated, with salaries varying massively as medics move up grades when they become more skilled and start to specialise.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66360656

So explain what is a junior doctor,?

Aparently around 50% of doctors in the NHS are junior doctors

[Dixy]

Sorry Oliver my comment was aimed at supporting your statement and decrying the 2 above. Many are pushing 40 have more than one degree and an enormous amount of experience but are still classed as junior.

[ChocolateFrog]

poo at Paul's said:

I am sure it is, but do you think the rest of the working population is that much different?
I have been in continuous employment for the last 36 years and nowadays, work means people want more work, done faster and for lower relative money than ever before.
My wife and I never take days off sick, even if we are, and I give up 6 days per year holiday every single year, out of 22 total. We get no overtime, no flexi days, and dont get paid holiday not taken.
And I am not alone in my business or indeed sector, this is the rather sad reality of working live for tens of millions nowadays.

The modern business sector has embraced technology that was designed to make life easier, but in reality has sadly made millions of us almost prisoners to their work and jobs.

If only you had a strong union

I get effectively 12 weeks AL (that does include days off either side that are technically regular not at work days but doesn't stop me taking 6 x 14 day holidays if I wanted. Although I couldn't take 1 x 3 month block.

35 hours pw and not an hour more unless it's paid as overtime.

Still, no payrise unless we give up as many of those terms as they can possibly claw away from us.

The end game looks extremely bleak for blue and lower skilled white collar workers IMO.

[dmsims]

Not a consultant

Oliver Hardy said:

So explain what is a junior doctor,?

[pavarotti1980]

Oliver Hardy said:

OK I am clueless, but it is what has been explained on TV

From the BBC

In reality, that term - junior doctor - covers someone fresh out of medical school right up to those with a decade or more of experience. And pay is complicated, with salaries varying massively as medics move up grades when they become more skilled and start to specialise.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66360656

So explain what is a junior doctor,?

Aparently around 50% of doctors in the NHS are junior doctors

Any doctor below consultant grade

[poo at Paul's]

markh1973 said:

Why do you give up over a quarter of your holiday? If I don't take enough holiday my boss would be making sure I took time off, same as I do for my team. Very very few people are so indispensible that they can't take holiday.

Becuase we have shed loads of work on, and someone has to do it, and there’s a bunch of us that tend to work a bit extra so some of the others can take their holidays, eg those with younger kids, those on lower incomes, those who look after elderly relatives etc.
ideally, we’d all be taking all our hols, but we just have so many requests for fork to be done, especially in the run up to the year end, a few of us get our heads down and get on with it, becuase it needs doing. And no, we don’t get overtime!
It may be an alien concept to some, but for some of us, maybe some of us who are a bit older, it’s pretty common.
I notice no one is questioning why the GP wife of the other poster is doing so many hours and is cream crackered.

[Vasco]

pavarotti1980 said:

Oliver Hardy said:

OK I am clueless, but it is what has been explained on TV

From the BBC

In reality, that term - junior doctor - covers someone fresh out of medical school right up to those with a decade or more of experience. And pay is complicated, with salaries varying massively as medics move up grades when they become more skilled and start to specialise.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66360656

So explain what is a junior doctor,?

Aparently around 50% of doctors in the NHS are junior doctors

Any doctor below consultant grade

......and that's just bonkers, with no real logic.
A 'Junior' doctor can have years of experience, specialisms, quality skills and, presumably, may have supervisory responsibilities etc - and they are still all called 'Junior'.
It makes it all terribly convenient to say that you are still a junior when you put in a pay claim for 35%

[pavarotti1980]

Vasco said:

......and that's just bonkers, with no real logic.
A 'Junior' doctor can have years of experience, specialisms, quality skills and, presumably, may have supervisory responsibilities etc - and they are still all called 'Junior'.
It makes it all terribly convenient to say that you are still a junior when you put in a pay claim for 35%

In practice they won't be called junior. It will be their grade

[Vasco]

pavarotti1980 said:

Vasco said:

......and that's just bonkers, with no real logic.
A 'Junior' doctor can have years of experience, specialisms, quality skills and, presumably, may have supervisory responsibilities etc - and they are still all called 'Junior'.
It makes it all terribly convenient to say that you are still a junior when you put in a pay claim for 35%

In practice they won't be called junior. It will be their grade

They're referred to as 'Junior' on any TV News bulletins, newspapers - and the Union also uses that terminology in their pay discussions etc

[pavarotti1980]

Vasco said:

They're referred to as 'Junior' on any TV News bulletins, newspapers - and the Union also uses that terminology in their pay discussions etc

I appreciate that as it easier than FY1, ST3, SoR ot whatever which would confuse you more. Not sure it makes that much difference in the grand scheme of things.

[Dixy]

More importantly the civil servants that actually negotiate their pay group them as either junior doctors, consultants or GPs.

[pavarotti1980]

Dixy said:

More importantly the civil servants that actually negotiate their pay group them as either junior doctors, consultants or GPs.

Imagine the confusion with almost everyone else being called AfC

[Vasco]

pavarotti1980 said:

Vasco said:

They're referred to as 'Junior' on any TV News bulletins, newspapers - and the Union also uses that terminology in their pay discussions etc

I appreciate that as it easier than FY1, ST3, SoR ot whatever which would confuse you more. Not sure it makes that much difference in the grand scheme of things.

.......but it does.

All the media are happy to call them all Junior doctors - not many of the general public will realise that it includes long serving and specialists etc.

[pavarotti1980]

Vasco said:

.......but it does.

All the media are happy to call them all Junior doctors - not many of the general public will realise that it includes long serving and specialists etc.

Does it?

Most articles I have read clarify that it means anything below consultant level

[Vasco]

pavarotti1980 said:

Vasco said:

.......but it does.

All the media are happy to call them all Junior doctors - not many of the general public will realise that it includes long serving and specialists etc.

Does it?

Most articles I have read clarify that it means anything below consultant level

Many 'ordinary' people (like me!) won't be sufficiently interested to read more than a few key headlines. Until quite recently I had no idea that it was any doctor that isn't a consultant. The media has been quite effective at pushing 'Junior' as if it only means young, with limited experience.

[Nomme de Plum]

Vasco said:

pavarotti1980 said:

Vasco said:

.......but it does.

All the media are happy to call them all Junior doctors - not many of the general public will realise that it includes long serving and specialists etc.

Does it?

Most articles I have read clarify that it means anything below consultant level

Many 'ordinary' people (like me!) won't be sufficiently interested to read more than a few key headlines. Until quite recently I had no idea that it was any doctor that isn't a consultant. The media has been quite effective at pushing 'Junior' as if it only means young, with limited experience.

Really?

How can you be so uninformed?

They haven't btw. That is simply a reflection of your lack of knowledge.

[Hugo Stiglitz]

Vasco said:

pavarotti1980 said:

Vasco said:

......and that's just bonkers, with no real logic.
A 'Junior' doctor can have years of experience, specialisms, quality skills and, presumably, may have supervisory responsibilities etc - and they are still all called 'Junior'.
It makes it all terribly convenient to say that you are still a junior when you put in a pay claim for 35%

In practice they won't be called junior. It will be their grade

They're referred to as 'Junior' on any TV News bulletins, newspapers - and the Union also uses that terminology in their pay discussions etc

OK so what are they paid?

Say a non Consultant I.e. Junior Doctor has been working for 10 years in the NHS what would their salary be before on call overtime?

[oddman]

Hugo Stiglitz said:

OK so what are they paid?

Say a non Consultant I.e. Junior Doctor has been working for 10 years in the NHS what would their salary be before on call overtime?

From BMA website.

Year 1 FY1
Year 2 FY2
Years 3-5 CT1-3
Years 5-12 ST1-8

The top increment is only about 50% more than I was earning in the late '90s when I was at the same grade.

Edited by oddman on Sunday 9th June 08:54