What is the Conservative legacy?

[Wombat3]

President Merkin said:

Love it when an impregnable argument comes along. In this case, it's a guy dropping the for fks sake bomb. No coming back from this, lads.

Honestly, WTAF are you on about?

There are a few vaguely right wing people in the Tory party that seem to believe in small state, controlled immigration, free markets & low taxation.

Its not as if they are talking about opening Gulags & Concentration camps is it??

Use of "Extremists" & "Radicalised" in connection with anyone in mainstream UK politics (even the likes of Braverman or McDonell) is hysterical nonsense & the stuff of the Student Union politics

Edited by Wombat3 on Monday 12th February 15:53

[Wombat3]

captain_cynic said:

Wombat3 said:

"Radicalised"
"Extremists"

F F S

Truth hurts.

If you don't think the Tories have become extreme, you are part of the problem.

It might if it was anywhere near the truth but its not, Its just hysterical nonsense.

Nobody is placing bulk orders for black uniforms.

[James6112]

Crime
Decay
Bent
Crooks
Gave away Uk residents right to settle in EU
Self serving, cash for their friends
Lies
Deceit
Split up the Uk

Quite a legacy

Soon to be consigned to history

[President Merkin]

Wombat3 said:

Honestly, WTAF are you on about?

There are a few vaguely right wing people in the Tory party that seem to believe in small state, controlled immigration, free markets & low taxation.

Its not as if they are talking about opening Gulags & Concentration camps is it??

Use of "Extremists" & "Radicalised" in connection with anyone in mainstream UK politics (even the likes of Braveman or McDonell) is hysterical nonsense & the stuff of the Student Union politics

You say vaguely right wing, I say a home sec promoting leaving the ECHR, which is exactly why we need to be in the ECHR, a recently ex dep chairman who advocated making the unemployed sleep in tents & pick fruit. A leader of the house who suspended parliament illegally & lied to the Queen in the process. A secretary of state who came to the house to advance a policy that would break the law, More generally, a tide of populism damaging the instuitutions of government, othering sections of society, whipping up culture war divisions.

Maybe you missed all of those, I don't know but if you think noting the descent into radicalised factionalism of the Tory party in those episodes is student union politics, then why are you even bothering? In Wombat world, clearly all is well.

[oyster]

Wombat3 said:

Honestly, WTAF are you on about?

There are a few vaguely right wing people in the Tory party that seem to believe in small state, controlled immigration, free markets & low taxation.

Its not as if they are talking about opening Gulags & Concentration camps is it??

Use of "Extremists" & "Radicalised" in connection with anyone in mainstream UK politics (even the likes of Braverman or McDonell) is hysterical nonsense & the stuff of the Student Union politics

Edited by Wombat3 on Monday 12th February 15:53

What’s free market about adding more controls to immigration?

[valiant]

oyster said:

What’s free market about adding more controls to immigration?

Not that sort of free market obvs...

[NerveAgent]

Wombat3 said:

NerveAgent said:

You talked about a nation of whingers where it’s always someone else’s fault. I just mentioned a group who fit this profile well. You followed with a whinge about someone else.

Wombat3 said:

Except that the general problem appears to centre heavily around the "productive generation " not really being that productive.

A statement of fact is a statement of fact. See national productivity figures for reference.

The bits about lack of investment, early retirees etc. or just the bits that fit your narrative?

(I’m guessing you agree about a certain demographic being one of the most prominent group of whingers)

[smn159]

st pumped into our rivers
Hospital waiting lists up, after years of steady improvement under previous government
Disfunctional rail system
High taxes
Cronyism
Waste
Hollowed out public infrastructure
Deliberately undermined public institutions
Politicisation of The BBC
Idiot rather than expert opinion
Elevation of idiot yes men and women to positions of power
Racist dog whistles and culture wars in place of actually running the country
Incompetence
in fighting
Culture of entitlement
Think tanks pushing dogma regardless of what the country needs
Culture of lies and deceit.

[Wombat3]

President Merkin said:

Wombat3 said:

Honestly, WTAF are you on about?

There are a few vaguely right wing people in the Tory party that seem to believe in small state, controlled immigration, free markets & low taxation.

Its not as if they are talking about opening Gulags & Concentration camps is it??

Use of "Extremists" & "Radicalised" in connection with anyone in mainstream UK politics (even the likes of Braveman or McDonell) is hysterical nonsense & the stuff of the Student Union politics

You say vaguely right wing, I say a home sec promoting leaving the ECHR, which is exactly why we need to be in the ECHR, a recently ex dep chairman who advocated making the unemployed sleep in tents & pick fruit. A leader of the house who suspended parliament illegally & lied to the Queen in the process. A secretary of state who came to the house to advance a policy that would break the law, More generally, a tide of populism damaging the instuitutions of government, othering sections of society, whipping up culture war divisions.

Maybe you missed all of those, I don't know but if you think noting the descent into radicalised factionalism of the Tory party in those episodes is student union politics, then why are you even bothering? In Wombat world, clearly all is well.

I say the ECHR is an EU body. We are not in the EU. Do the Americans need it? Do the Canadians or the Australians? No, so why do we want to bind ourselves to it when it is also overtly political. Or do we not trust ourselves to manage these things on our own?

Charges of misleading parliament have been known to be made to politicians of all persuasions (See A Blair/Iraq/WMD for reference)

Some (many) of the institutions of our government have become useless, self serving, morrasses. They need questioning, they need reforming & some of them need tearing up & starting again,

The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. The Tories and Labour are now basically two cheeks of the same arse. Anyone who thinks changing from Blue to Red is going to solve our nation's ills is going to be sadly disappointed.

[biggbn]

So W3, do what then? What can be done that is different?

[President Merkin]

Wombat3 said:

I say the ECHR is a EU body. We are not in the EU.

Well you say wrong, That isn't opinion, it's a fact. Nothing after that matters, You've dropped an unbelievable clanger in your very first sentence. Is there a Tory round here anywhere with even a passing acquaintance with the real world?

[Wombat3]

biggbn said:

So W3, do what then? What can be done that is different?

Very little because there are too many vested interests.

Whether that's arse-covering civil servants, dishonest politicians, greedy managers of public companies etc etc

[biggbn]

Wombat3 said:

biggbn said:

So W3, do what then? What can be done that is different?

Very little because there are too many vested interests.

Whether that's arse-covering civil servants, dishonest politicians, greedy managers of public companies etc etc

But you suggest, alongside old Alby, that doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. So, what can be done? All I'm hearing is moaning about what might happen in comparison to what has happened. Regardless who we vote for, a politician gets in..are you only realising this now?

[biggbn]

Wombat3 said:

I say the ECHR is an EU body. We are not in the EU. Do the Americans need it? Do the Canadians or the Australians? No, so why do we want to bind ourselves to it when it is also overtly political. Or do we not trust ourselves to manage these things on our own?

Charges of misleading parliament have been known to be made to politicians of all persuasions (See A Blair/Iraq/WMD for reference)

Some (many) of the institutions of our government have become useless, self serving, morrasses. They need questioning, they need reforming & some of them need tearing up & starting again,

The definition of stupidity is doing the same thing again and again and expecting a different result. The Tories and Labour are now basically two cheeks of the same arse. Anyone who thinks changing from Blue to Red is going to solve our nation's ills is going to be sadly disappointed.

By the way you are entirely wrong that the ECHR is an EU body. That's a rather alarming statement.

[Wombat3]

President Merkin said:

Wombat3 said:

I say the ECHR is a EU body. We are not in the EU.

Well you say wrong, That isn't opinion, it's a fact. Nothing after that matters, You've dropped an unbelievable clanger in your very first sentence. Is there a Tory round here anywhere with even a passing acquaintance with the real world?

I'm going to have to concede that one. The point, nonetheless, is that its an institution that has the ability to overrule British law.

Given recent meddling with who we can and can't deport from the UK, it can go.

[biggbn]

Wombat3 said:

President Merkin said:

Wombat3 said:

I say the ECHR is a EU body. We are not in the EU.

Well you say wrong, That isn't opinion, it's a fact. Nothing after that matters, You've dropped an unbelievable clanger in your very first sentence. Is there a Tory round here anywhere with even a passing acquaintance with the real world?

I'm going to have to concede that one. The point, nonetheless, is that its an institution that has the ability to overrule British law.

Given recent meddling with who we can and can't deport from the UK, it can go.

Thanks for your honesty. It cuts both ways though. Wouldn't you rather be part of an organisation that ensures the welfare of those it oversees and therefore help ensure our fellow human beings are afforded the same opportunities across the countries involved?

[Wombat3]

biggbn said:

Wombat3 said:

President Merkin said:

Wombat3 said:

I say the ECHR is a EU body. We are not in the EU.

Well you say wrong, That isn't opinion, it's a fact. Nothing after that matters, You've dropped an unbelievable clanger in your very first sentence. Is there a Tory round here anywhere with even a passing acquaintance with the real world?

I'm going to have to concede that one. The point, nonetheless, is that its an institution that has the ability to overrule British law.

Given recent meddling with who we can and can't deport from the UK, it can go.

Thanks for your honesty. It cuts both ways though. Wouldn't you rather be part of an organisation that ensures the welfare of those it oversees and therefore help ensure our fellow human beings are afforded the same opportunities across the countries involved?

It depends, I trust us to make reasonable decisions as we always have.

Others? Not so sure.

In the case of the recent issue with immigration the EHCR have been pontificating on whether we can or can't deport people who originate from countries over which in fact they have no jurisdiction.

Their decisions have not been in the UK' s interests and therefore not in the people of the UK's interests. What about their "rights"?

[President Merkin]

Human rights are universal. This really does need to compute with the leave the ECHR crowd. You say you trust us to make sensible decisions when two or three posts above, I listed a bunch of irrational, illegal decisions made by the current government, I don't know how much more I could put the evidence under your nose but you ought to accept that the protections the ECHR confers on you and your beloved family are gone forever if we left.

It's the myopia that kills me in this. The idea that junking a set of high minded protections we were instrumental in creating in order to deal with a trivial issue won't ever have serious repercussions for us is madness, pure vandalism. Incredible that I get accused of student union politics in the context of this beyond shallow thinking.

Either way it's never happening, so may as well forget the whole thing.

[Wombat3]

President Merkin said:

Human rights are universal. This really does need to compute with the leave the ECHR crowd. You say you trust us to make sensible decisions when two or three posts above, I listed a bunch of irrational, illegal decisions made by the current government, I don't know how much more I could put the evidence under your nose but you ought to accept that the protections the ECHR confers on you and your beloved family are gone forever if we left.

It's the myopia that kills me in this. The idea that junking a set of high minded protections we were instrumental in creating in order to deal with a trivial issue won't ever have serious repercussions for us is madness, pure vandalism. Incredible that I get accused of student union politics in the context of this beyond shallow thinking.

Either way it's never happening, so may as well forget the whole thing.

Opinions may vary (and that's OK).

We are, inherently, a high-minded, fair, lawful, reasonable and relatively incorrupt nation. Unfortunately, that cannot be said for all and as such people (and countries) will take the piss.

We need to be able to protect ourselves from that & I see no reason to need to entrust that to others.

[2xChevrons]

Wombat3 said:

We are, inherently, a high-minded, fair, lawful, reasonable and relatively incorrupt nation. Unfortunately, that cannot be said for all and as such people (and countries) will take the piss.

Big ol' "Citation Needed" on that. Especially the 'inherently' bit, because that comes across as purestrain exceptionalism. I don't think anyone, any group of people or any nation is inherently anything, let alone "high-minded, fair, lawful, reasonable and relatively incorrupt".

There are lots of people, in the UK and abroad, who have been on the receiving end of the UK government and the British state's actions that would not find them high-minded, fair, lawful or reasonable. A century or so ago we just treated other bits and people of the world that we deemed lesser with impunity. Since the Empire's gone we've started doing to groups on our own shores that we deem 'lessers' or 'others'. Don't for a moment think that if, for whatever reason, you became part of an 'out' group that you'd find the British state/people so high-minded and reasonable.