Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll
Poll: Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll
Total Members Polled: 1034
Discussion
FNG said:
pghstochaj said:
Just wait until the consultants decide what to do given the suggestion that it’s ok once you make it as a consultant. The pay erosion for consultants has been just as bad. My wife has been a consultant for six years and her pay is £99,425.
In 2008 pay would have been £82,590. Just allowing for inflation that would be £125k today.
The failure is with the BMA allowing this erosion to happen slowly.
To compare to MPs, in 2008 an MP got £60,675 which would today be £91,578. They actually get £86,584.
I'm private sector. Just ran my salary through an inflation calculator.In 2008 pay would have been £82,590. Just allowing for inflation that would be £125k today.
The failure is with the BMA allowing this erosion to happen slowly.
To compare to MPs, in 2008 an MP got £60,675 which would today be £91,578. They actually get £86,584.
In 2008 I was earning 45k, which is apparently 76.5k in today's money.
I'm on 56.5k now. And I was very VERY lucky to get a 12% payrise last year, as it was the second year of a pay deal that had been linked to RPI.
It's happened to all of us. The 2008 GFC f
ked us all over.It might have happened to many, but it doesn’t stop unions attempting to secure better deals for their respective members.
Not that that was my point, my point was that reaching the consultant level is not what it was and not really a good justification for low salaries for junior doctors. Consultants are currently being polled for the same.
gangzoom said:
Carl_Manchester said:
No.
I think that people who excel and go through what doctors go through should be rewarded fairly.
I think nurses compensation is fair.
So nursing is for people who don't excel....I wonder if you would voice those views to any nurse in person, especially if you a patientI think that people who excel and go through what doctors go through should be rewarded fairly.
I think nurses compensation is fair.
.I would not be as rude to point this out to a ward of nurses, in the same way i don't plan on pointing out to the airplane technicians servicing my next easyJet flight that the pilot has excelled beyond their level either.
many (airforce) airplane technicians and nurses want to be pilots and doctors someday and I support the use of public money to help support their ambitions, if they are good enough to make the jump.
One question that was posed by the Speccy article, is this the first Generation Z strike?
What is absolutely clear is that the cohorts of Gen Z that have been entering uni for a few years now are still very much adult-children. Even to the point that staff who are themselves millennials frequently find themselves exasperated by the displayed attitudes and behaviour, as one such 30 something year old commented recently "toxic narcissistic self-centred babies." Personally I'd just have rolled my eyes and moved on avoiding the conflict, maybe that approach is also wrong.
What is absolutely clear is that the cohorts of Gen Z that have been entering uni for a few years now are still very much adult-children. Even to the point that staff who are themselves millennials frequently find themselves exasperated by the displayed attitudes and behaviour, as one such 30 something year old commented recently "toxic narcissistic self-centred babies." Personally I'd just have rolled my eyes and moved on avoiding the conflict, maybe that approach is also wrong.
FiF said:
I'll believe that killboy read those articles but only because he claims to have done because clearly didn't understand what was being said as evidenced by the resulting vacuous comments.
Bit of an odd statement to then go on and agree with me 
Let me drop another statement that will rustle everyone's jimmies. 99k isn't a great salary either anymore
Killboy said:
FiF said:
I'll believe that killboy read those articles but only because he claims to have done because clearly didn't understand what was being said as evidenced by the resulting vacuous comments.
Bit of an odd statement to then go on and agree with me Let me drop another statement that will rustle everyone's jimmies. 99k isn't a great salary either anymore
Files poster in ignore category.
Carl_Manchester said:
generally doctors are people that excel beyond nurses and their station in society, quite rightly , reflects that the world over.
I didn’t realise we still judged people by ‘stations’, but its views like yours I have to thank for pushing me to apply to Medicine in the first place so I suppose I should be ‘grateful’ .Doctors are already paid much higher than nurses, this isn’t/shouldn’t be about paying/judging one group in the NHS more than another. Everyone needs their pay to reflect the work/demands. I suspect the nursing ballot result out later today will reflect how staff feel about the current 5% ‘offer’ from the government.
It’s likely the RCN, BMA, UNISON will end up calling back-to-back strikes going into May.
Someone, somewhere in power is going to have make some very hard decisions very soon.
Edited by gangzoom on Friday 14th April 08:43
gangzoom said:
I didn’t realise we still judged people by ‘stations’, but its views like yours I have to thank for pushing me to apply to Medicine in the first place so I suppose I should be ‘grateful’ .
Doctors are already paid much higher than nurses, this isn’t/shouldn’t be about paying/judging one group in the NHS more than another. Everyone needs their pay to reflect the work/demands. I suspect the nursing ballot result out later today will reflect how staff feel about the current 5% ‘offer’ from the government.
It’s likely the RCN, BMA, UNISON will end up calling back-to-back strikes going into May.
Someone, somewhere in power is going to have make some very hard decisions very soon.
Playing devils avocado, is it not the case that if nurses are truly underpaid to the degree they say, and this applies to all striking persons actually, that they can be worn down as soon enough they simply won’t be able to afford to continue their action?.Doctors are already paid much higher than nurses, this isn’t/shouldn’t be about paying/judging one group in the NHS more than another. Everyone needs their pay to reflect the work/demands. I suspect the nursing ballot result out later today will reflect how staff feel about the current 5% ‘offer’ from the government.
It’s likely the RCN, BMA, UNISON will end up calling back-to-back strikes going into May.
Someone, somewhere in power is going to have make some very hard decisions very soon.
Edited by gangzoom on Friday 14th April 08:43
There’s also the potential for a change in public opinion. I happen to think the nurses and everyone else in the NHS for that matter deserve a decent pay award and I would gladly pay a penny on the £ to fund it but that’s not going to happen.
Where does this stalemate end?
pghstochaj said:
FNG said:
pghstochaj said:
Just wait until the consultants decide what to do given the suggestion that it’s ok once you make it as a consultant. The pay erosion for consultants has been just as bad. My wife has been a consultant for six years and her pay is £99,425.
In 2008 pay would have been £82,590. Just allowing for inflation that would be £125k today.
The failure is with the BMA allowing this erosion to happen slowly.
To compare to MPs, in 2008 an MP got £60,675 which would today be £91,578. They actually get £86,584.
I'm private sector. Just ran my salary through an inflation calculator.In 2008 pay would have been £82,590. Just allowing for inflation that would be £125k today.
The failure is with the BMA allowing this erosion to happen slowly.
To compare to MPs, in 2008 an MP got £60,675 which would today be £91,578. They actually get £86,584.
In 2008 I was earning 45k, which is apparently 76.5k in today's money.
I'm on 56.5k now. And I was very VERY lucky to get a 12% payrise last year, as it was the second year of a pay deal that had been linked to RPI.
It's happened to all of us. The 2008 GFC f
ked us all over.It might have happened to many, but it doesn’t stop unions attempting to secure better deals for their respective members.
Not that that was my point, my point was that reaching the consultant level is not what it was and not really a good justification for low salaries for junior doctors. Consultants are currently being polled for the same.
So MPs didn't suffer the same erosion. Colour me shocked.
FNG said:
pghstochaj said:
Just wait until the consultants decide what to do given the suggestion that it’s ok once you make it as a consultant. The pay erosion for consultants has been just as bad. My wife has been a consultant for six years and her pay is £99,425.
In 2008 pay would have been £82,590. Just allowing for inflation that would be £125k today.
The failure is with the BMA allowing this erosion to happen slowly.
To compare to MPs, in 2008 an MP got £60,675 which would today be £91,578. They actually get £86,584.
I'm private sector. Just ran my salary through an inflation calculator.In 2008 pay would have been £82,590. Just allowing for inflation that would be £125k today.
The failure is with the BMA allowing this erosion to happen slowly.
To compare to MPs, in 2008 an MP got £60,675 which would today be £91,578. They actually get £86,584.
In 2008 I was earning 45k, which is apparently 76.5k in today's money.
I'm on 56.5k now. And I was very VERY lucky to get a 12% payrise last year, as it was the second year of a pay deal that had been linked to RPI.
It's happened to all of us. The 2008 GFC f
ked us all over.ked us all over. Although many on here like to argue it didn’t.We are way poorer than we would have been. Our economy didn’t recover when many others did. It was as predictable (given the policies and context) as it was depressing.
Killboy said:
FiF said:
I'll believe that killboy read those articles but only because he claims to have done because clearly didn't understand what was being said as evidenced by the resulting vacuous comments.
Bit of an odd statement to then go on and agree with me Let me drop another statement that will rustle everyone's jimmies. 99k isn't a great salary either anymore
£60,000 and that’s a weekly wage btw. Funny old World.
djc206 said:
Playing devils avocado, is it not the case that if nurses are truly underpaid to the degree they say, and this applies to all striking persons actually, that they can be worn down as soon enough they simply won’t be able to afford to continue their action?
There’s also the potential for a change in public opinion. I happen to think the nurses and everyone else in the NHS for that matter deserve a decent pay award and I would gladly pay a penny on the £ to fund it but that’s not going to happen.
Where does this stalemate end?
Take it further, police, now there's a set of individuals who really are prepared daily to run towards imminent danger to protect people, many of whom wouldn't do anything more than operate their mobile phone video camera were situation reversed.There’s also the potential for a change in public opinion. I happen to think the nurses and everyone else in the NHS for that matter deserve a decent pay award and I would gladly pay a penny on the £ to fund it but that’s not going to happen.
Where does this stalemate end?
I'd happily triple my precept on the council tax and something on income tax, but that's not going to happen either.
Next.
djc206 said:
Playing devils avocado, is it not the case that if nurses are truly underpaid to the degree they say, and this applies to all striking persons actually, that they can be worn down as soon enough they simply won’t be able to afford to continue their action?
There’s also the potential for a change in public opinion. I happen to think the nurses and everyone else in the NHS for that matter deserve a decent pay award and I would gladly pay a penny on the £ to fund it but that’s not going to happen.
Where does this stalemate end?
Junior doctors are losing in effect 1/6 of their pay in the last 4-6 weeks due to the action, I know there are individuals who are seriously considering NOT taking part in the next round of industrial action due to lost pay. I suspect nursing staff is similar - though not all trusts have had nursing strikes (yet). However the strength of feeling is so strong I doubt very much the government will get much 'success' on trying to force people back into work from loss of earnings.There’s also the potential for a change in public opinion. I happen to think the nurses and everyone else in the NHS for that matter deserve a decent pay award and I would gladly pay a penny on the £ to fund it but that’s not going to happen.
Where does this stalemate end?
Where does it all end??
Sometimes people say to me why they don't understand why I want to be in any kind of leadership position in our organisation, well I can say the exact same thing for the cabinet MPs at the moment.......They are the ones ultimately who have to make a call/decision on this, I cannot see any 'easy' or none painful way through this, but if Rishi+co signed up for their jobs (I wonder if they were given bad advice by their adult mentors aged 16/17
)Edited by gangzoom on Friday 14th April 09:43
crankedup5 said:
At last I can agree with something you have stated, £99k is not a great annual salary. Remove the tax take from that together with basic living costs and see what’s left. But I’m being flippant tbh, look at the wages in the football premier league where the players are on an average wage of
£60,000 and that’s a weekly wage btw. Funny old World.
Or just a script kiddy 5 years into a job sitting on the couch.£60,000 and that’s a weekly wage btw. Funny old World.
crankedup5 said:
Killboy said:
FiF said:
I'll believe that killboy read those articles but only because he claims to have done because clearly didn't understand what was being said as evidenced by the resulting vacuous comments.
Bit of an odd statement to then go on and agree with me Let me drop another statement that will rustle everyone's jimmies. 99k isn't a great salary either anymore
£60,000 and that’s a weekly wage btw. Funny old World.
£99k is 3 times the national average FT wage, I'd suggest millions would consider it a great wage.
That's £5600 a month after tax. That would cover a £350k mortgage payment (£1800), a decent car payment (£500), CT (£200), Utilities (£400), insurance (£100), 1000 miles of fuel (£150) food (£400) and leave around £2000 a month for discretionary spending,
FiF said:
Take it further, police, now there's a set of individuals who really are prepared daily to run towards imminent danger to protect people, many of whom wouldn't do anything more than operate their mobile phone video camera were situation reversed.
I'd happily triple my precept on the council tax and something on income tax, but that's not going to happen either.
Next.
I was about to disagree with you based on what my father earned as a copper but having just googled the payscales, holy crap have they been stagnant for a while. No wonder retention is an issue.I'd happily triple my precept on the council tax and something on income tax, but that's not going to happen either.
Next.
Anyway back to junior doctors. I voted for teens% I think that would be fair.
SWoll said:
Living in a bubble much there guys?
£99k is 3 times the national average FT wage, I'd suggest millions would consider it a great wage.
That's £5600 a month after tax. That would cover a £350k mortgage payment (£1800), a decent car payment (£500), CT (£200), Utilities (£400), insurance (£100), 1000 miles of fuel (£150) food (£400) and leave around £2000 a month for discretionary spending,
Now find a house for 350k. Make it 400k with armed with a 50k deposit.£99k is 3 times the national average FT wage, I'd suggest millions would consider it a great wage.
That's £5600 a month after tax. That would cover a £350k mortgage payment (£1800), a decent car payment (£500), CT (£200), Utilities (£400), insurance (£100), 1000 miles of fuel (£150) food (£400) and leave around £2000 a month for discretionary spending,
djc206 said:
I was about to disagree with you based on what my father earned as a copper but having just googled the payscales, holy crap have they been stagnant for a while. No wonder retention is an issue.
Anyway back to junior doctors. I voted for teens% I think that would be fair.
Suspect we voted the same way, 5-9% option seems too low being realistic about it. 35% isn't.Anyway back to junior doctors. I voted for teens% I think that would be fair.
Killboy said:
SWoll said:
Living in a bubble much there guys?
£99k is 3 times the national average FT wage, I'd suggest millions would consider it a great wage.
That's £5600 a month after tax. That would cover a £350k mortgage payment (£1800), a decent car payment (£500), CT (£200), Utilities (£400), insurance (£100), 1000 miles of fuel (£150) food (£400) and leave around £2000 a month for discretionary spending,
Now find a house for 350k. Make it 400k with armed with a 50k deposit.£99k is 3 times the national average FT wage, I'd suggest millions would consider it a great wage.
That's £5600 a month after tax. That would cover a £350k mortgage payment (£1800), a decent car payment (£500), CT (£200), Utilities (£400), insurance (£100), 1000 miles of fuel (£150) food (£400) and leave around £2000 a month for discretionary spending,
120 houses between £250-350k available within 1 mile of where I live in Lichfield. Plenty of them in nice areas and surrounding villages, 3-4 bedrooms etc.
Like I said, bubble.
FNG said:
And my point is that junior doctors wanting 35% is excessive given a similar level of erosion in earning power has happened across the board.
So MPs didn't suffer the same erosion. Colour me shocked.
So you expect junior doctors to be passive and ignore that pay has been substantially cut in real terms, just because it has happened to you? Or the doctors should enter into a negotiation process starting out asking for less than they would have been paid if pay had received pay rises in line with inflation? I am assuming you are not in a negotiation role.So MPs didn't suffer the same erosion. Colour me shocked.
Back to facts though, rather than opinion or anecdote.
Using consultant salaries as my indicator as I already have the numbers from above and I know that the terms and conditions have not substantially changed in this time period. Median pay (2008-2023) in the UK for full time employees has gone from £25,165 to £35,145 according to the data below and accounting for the reported 2022-2023 increase:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002964/averag...
That is a 40% increase (for info, your salary has grown substantially less than the UK average despite you presumably increasing in experience so the growth should have been much higher to reflect promotion etc., the average increase does not account for this of course). Therefore, using the consultant example above, the salary should have gone from £82,590 to £115,343 to maintain performance with the general population salary inflation. This is less than the £125,000 inflation adjusted figure but far more than the actual current pay of £99,425.
The ONS data paints an even worse picture. Using data from 2008 to 2023 and inflating a salary of £82,590 brings out a salary of £120,581. This is still behind inflation but £20,000 more than the actual pay.
https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/p...
It is completely wrong to say that doctors have only suffered the same erosion as the general public.
This is why consultants will probably vote for action. Being a consultant used to be a very well paid job but now, what is asked of a consultant versus the remuneration makes it less competitive.
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