Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[crankedup5]

sunbeam alpine said:

crankedup5 said:

Unfortunately we have had to deal with the covid pandemic, and the resulting furlough and medical costs that ensued...

The whole world has had to deal with Covid. The UK has probably splurged to most money for the smallest return, but at least a few people have done well out of it, allegedly...

Yup, that is so. But it is what it is and that’s why our treasury cupboard is bare.

[HM-2]

crankedup5 said:

Every person is entitled to their pov, even you

And if you choose to publicly announce your POV, everyone else is entitled to pick holes in it, or call it out on its lack of basis in evidence.

[sunbeam alpine]

crankedup5 said:

sunbeam alpine said:

crankedup5 said:

Unfortunately we have had to deal with the covid pandemic, and the resulting furlough and medical costs that ensued...

The whole world has had to deal with Covid. The UK has probably splurged to most money for the smallest return, but at least a few people have done well out of it, allegedly...

Yup, that is so. But it is what it is and that’s why our treasury cupboard is bare.

So where do you think the govt is going to get the money to stop people leaving the NHS for better jobs?

[Mrr T]

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

Did you actually read my post? FOM had a small negative affect on the lowest paid but NO affect on wages for the majority.

I believe this happened because from my experience most from EE arrived with little money. This meant they had to get work immediately. So would take any job initially. Once they had some money they would get a better job.

As for my comments about eduction. Check your post above you used the words "low skills"? But we know the educational levels of EE immigrants was above the UK average.

You take the prize for the most ridiculous post this week

So back to FOM suppressed wages even though all the evidence collected by all these economists say the exact opposite. Just because you believe something even though all the evidence says you are wrong is rather ridiculous. And says far more about you than me.

And you consistently fail to acknowledge that regional variations are not acknowledged within National statistics Because you read those National statistics and assume all was well does not reflect in real life. Your ridiculous reliance on economists and their statistics is ridiculous.
Average and higher paid employees did not suffer a wage suppression, it is those at the lower end which suffered the most. Plenty of reports can be found backing that assertion.

FFS do you not understand professionally economists and statisticians do have some idea how to understand statistics.

Here a real question do you have any knowledge of statistics, maybe a degree in the subject, or at least a degree in which it was a major part of your grades. If not then sorry just believe those who do.

[Mrr T]

crankedup5 said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

I claimed ‘regional variations’ something like five years ago, I have yet to read of a decent counter to that fact.

Ah yes, and it's everyone else's job to disprove whatever nonsense you happen to vomit forth, not yours to actually evidence your views.

Every person is entitled to their pov, even you. If others do not wish to engage then that’s fine by me.

Everyone is entitled to a point of view. However, when you have no expertise in a subject and can produce no evidence to support your pov it just makes you look ridiculous.

[anonymous-user]

crankedup5 said:

Blimey, we have had technology in hospitals for years now, and welcome to the ‘Virtual Ward’. Another step forward.

Lol. How's that working out?

[anonymous-user]

crankedup5 said:

sunbeam alpine said:

crankedup5 said:

Killboy said:

So how do those Brits, who've experiences wage stagnation because of the never ending stream of cheap labour from the EU, benefit from having their jobs automated too?

Seriously?
Bloody hell we would still be living in caves if we adopted that attitude to progress. Automation increases productivity which leads to growth.

Sorry Cranked, but this doesn't answer the question asked.

Can we agree that technology increases production and/quality.
As a Nation we are unable to fill the vacancies available, tech/automation should be used wherever possible to release people from mundane repetitive work and offer people more fulfilling work.

We started with immigrants from the EU causing wage stagnation. If I got this right, if we get rid of it we can automate to give these people that would have had job more fulfilling other jobs? Why couldn't they have them anyways? Did the immigrants steal their more fulfilling jobs?

[paul0843]

turbobloke said:

Curiously for the BBC at this stage so long after brexit, R4 had an item this morning which included a comment from outside the BBC (of course) essentially pointing out the tokenism of the EU Parliament and MEPs. It reminded me of this, from Juncker, on EU 'democracy'.

"We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.“

"If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue.“

Jean-Claude Juncker, thank EU for brexit.

SomTB ,Can you list me some of the things decided on that I should be upset about.?
I seem to have missed them

[Ridgemont]

paul0843 said:

turbobloke said:

Curiously for the BBC at this stage so long after brexit, R4 had an item this morning which included a comment from outside the BBC (of course) essentially pointing out the tokenism of the EU Parliament and MEPs. It reminded me of this, from Juncker, on EU 'democracy'.

"We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.“

"If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue.“

Jean-Claude Juncker, thank EU for brexit.

SomTB ,Can you list me some of the things decided on that I should be upset about.?
I seem to have missed them

You did. Google European Constitution and Lisbon treaty. It’s an absolute belter.

Old JCJ was amusing if only because he was entirely too honest.

[paul.deitch]

Just heard about the IMF economic forecast. Britain shrinks compared to most major economies. Oh dear. Nothing to do with Brexit, absolutely not /s

[blueg33]

Universities reporting big negative impact from Brexit this week.

Income down through loss of EU students
Much worse access to EU study for UK students, Erasmus replacement a shadow of the former programme
Less diversity in students so thinking and experience is too narrow.

Reported across a range of media

More Brexit winning……..

[paul0843]

Ridgemont said:

paul0843 said:

turbobloke said:

Curiously for the BBC at this stage so long after brexit, R4 had an item this morning which included a comment from outside the BBC (of course) essentially pointing out the tokenism of the EU Parliament and MEPs. It reminded me of this, from Juncker, on EU 'democracy'.

"We decide on something, leave it lying around and wait and see what happens. If no one kicks up a fuss, because most people don't understand what has been decided, we continue step by step until there is no turning back.“

"If it's a Yes, we will say 'on we go', and if it's a No we will say 'we continue.“

Jean-Claude Juncker, thank EU for brexit.

SomTB ,Can you list me some of the things decided on that I should be upset about.?
I seem to have missed them

You did. Google European Constitution and Lisbon treaty. It’s an absolute belter.

Old JCJ was amusing if only because he was entirely too honest.

My question was ,what shall I be upset about .?
Something that affects me personally in a negative way that the EU has done.

[ralphrj]

paul.deitch said:

Just heard about the IMF economic forecast. Britain shrinks compared to most major economies. Oh dear. Nothing to do with Brexit, absolutely not /s

To be fair the IMF doesn't mention Brexit at all and instead puts the cause down to tighter fiscal and monetary policies and high energy prices reducing household expenditure. In addition the UK economy outgrew the EU economy in 2021.

For clarity, I voted remain.

[HM-2]

ralphrj said:

In addition the UK economy outgrew the EU economy in 2021.

To be fair that's mostly because the UK economy contracted much further in 2020 than the EU did. 11% versus 5.9%. Net growth for the EU 2020-21 was -0.5%, for the UK it was -3.4%

[ralphrj]

HM-2 said:

To be fair that's mostly because the UK economy contracted much further in 2020 than the EU did. 11% versus 5.9%. Net growth for the EU 2020-21 was -0.5%, for the UK it was -3.4%

I wouldn't dispute that but how much was Brexit and how much was COVID?

If the IMF thought the UK's problems were down to Brexit I think they would have simply said so.

[redback911]

ralphrj said:

HM-2 said:

To be fair that's mostly because the UK economy contracted much further in 2020 than the EU did. 11% versus 5.9%. Net growth for the EU 2020-21 was -0.5%, for the UK it was -3.4%

I wouldn't dispute that but how much was Brexit and how much was COVID?

If the IMF thought the UK's problems were down to Brexit I think they would have simply said so.

There are multiple factors, but inflation, labor shortages, reduced exports, and supply issues, caused by Brexit have weakened the UK economy. The Telegraph is running a story today stating that "Brexit 'costing UK economy £100bn a year"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/01/31/en...

Have any of the Brexit economic promises been delivered, if they had we would not be the weakest economy in the IMF's growth forecast for major nations. Now we can look forward to being the only G7 country in recession. Yet all those other countries also experienced Covid, higher energy costs and inflation.

[HM-2]

ralphrj said:

HM-2 said:

To be fair that's mostly because the UK economy contracted much further in 2020 than the EU did. 11% versus 5.9%. Net growth for the EU 2020-21 was -0.5%, for the UK it was -3.4%

I wouldn't dispute that but how much was Brexit and how much was COVID?

If the IMF thought the UK's problems were down to Brexit I think they would have simply said so.

My point was more that the UK's higher growth in 2021 than the EU was due to the fact it had further to rebound from the 2020 contraction- the 2021 figure needs to be taken in that context to be meaningful.

Overall EU net growth between 2020 and 2022 was about 2%. In the same time the UK economy contracted about 1.5%. Broadly speaking the EU economies are experiencing the same pressures as the UK's- with the exception of Brexit- and overall they seem to be performing better in the current environment. Now we can't just assume that all the difference = Brexit (there's a lot of interplay of factors), but it's abundantly clear that it is a substantive contributing factor.

Edited by HM-2 on Tuesday 31st January 08:36

[GetCarter]

[Blue62]

redback911 said:

There are multiple factors, but inflation, labor shortages, reduced exports, and supply issues, caused by Brexit have weakened the UK economy. The Telegraph is running a story today stating that "Brexit 'costing UK economy £100bn a year"

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/2023/01/31/en...

Have any of the Brexit economic promises been delivered, if they had we would not be the weakest economy in the IMF's growth forecast for major nations. Now we can look forward to being the only G7 country in recession. Yet all those other countries also experienced Covid, higher energy costs and inflation.

How can the most Brexity of Brexiters possibly make such a claim? Maybe the Telegraph is lining itself up behind Reform?

[TonyToniTone]

GetCarter said:

Looks like Brexit is clobbering Germany as well.