Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[Killboy]

So how do those Brits, who've experiences wage stagnation because of the never ending stream of cheap labour from the EU, benefit from having their jobs automated too?

[crankedup5]

Mrr T said:

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

Did you actually read my post? FOM had a small negative affect on the lowest paid but NO affect on wages for the majority.

I believe this happened because from my experience most from EE arrived with little money. This meant they had to get work immediately. So would take any job initially. Once they had some money they would get a better job.

As for my comments about eduction. Check your post above you used the words "low skills"? But we know the educational levels of EE immigrants was above the UK average.

You take the prize for the most ridiculous post this week

So back to FOM suppressed wages even though all the evidence collected by all these economists say the exact opposite. Just because you believe something even though all the evidence says you are wrong is rather ridiculous. And says far more about you than me.

And you consistently fail to acknowledge that regional variations are not acknowledged within National statistics Because you read those National statistics and assume all was well does not reflect in real life. Your ridiculous reliance on economists and their statistics is ridiculous.
Average and higher paid employees did not suffer a wage suppression, it is those at the lower end which suffered the most. Plenty of reports can be found backing that assertion.

[crankedup5]

Killboy said:

So how do those Brits, who've experiences wage stagnation because of the never ending stream of cheap labour from the EU, benefit from having their jobs automated too?

Seriously?
Bloody hell we would still be living in caves if we adopted that attitude to progress. Automation increases productivity which leads to growth.

[Killboy]

crankedup5 said:

Seriously?
Bloody hell we would still be living in caves if we adopted that attitude to progress. Automation increases productivity which leads to growth.

So it's not about wages, and it's fine if automation does it, as long as it's not Europeans?

Can you give me some examples?

[sunbeam alpine]

crankedup5 said:

Killboy said:

So how do those Brits, who've experiences wage stagnation because of the never ending stream of cheap labour from the EU, benefit from having their jobs automated too?

Seriously?
Bloody hell we would still be living in caves if we adopted that attitude to progress. Automation increases productivity which leads to growth.

Sorry Cranked, but this doesn't answer the question asked.

[2xChevrons]

crankedup5 said:

Seriously?
Bloody hell we would still be living in caves if we adopted that attitude to progress. Automation increases productivity which leads to growth.

Growth for whom? The owners of the machines, sure. And perhaps for those workers who can retrain as machine technicians and installers. But taken to its logical (and, by the inherent forces of capitalism) inevitable inclusion, you end up in a world where economic production is automated, a tiny few own the machines and no one has a job. And that means that there's no one to buy any of the products or services that the automation is performing. And so the system collapses.

This is where UBI (or some other sort of socialisation of the economy) comes in to the picture.

Increasing automation and productivity should be the biggest boon for humanity (cf: utopian vision of the future from the 1950s where we would be working 2-day weeks) but productivity is always (as per your comment) mostly fed back into economic growth, not human improvement, because the economy is directed by those who hold capital (the automation).

[Killboy]

sunbeam alpine said:

Sorry Cranked, but this doesn't answer the question asked.

Turkeys and Christmas come to mind

[HM-2]

crankedup5 said:

And you consistently fail to acknowledge that regional variations are not acknowledged within National statistics

Post some then. You keep making this claim but seem completely unwilling to back it up or explain how it rebuts the notion that EU migration didn't depress wages.

[Blue62]

2xChevrons said:

Growth for whom? The owners of the machines, sure. And perhaps for those workers who can retrain as machine technicians and installers. But taken to its logical (and, by the inherent forces of capitalism) inevitable inclusion, you end up in a world where economic production is automated, a tiny few own the machines and no one has a job. And that means that there's no one to buy any of the products or services that the automation is performing. And so the system collapses.

This is where UBI (or some other sort of socialisation of the economy) comes in to the picture.

Increasing automation and productivity should be the biggest boon for humanity (cf: utopian vision of the future from the 1950s where we would be working 2-day weeks) but productivity is always (as per your comment) mostly fed back into economic growth, not human improvement, because the economy is directed by those who hold capital (the automation).

I think that’s a little too radical for PH, they can always find another job if they don’t like the pay or conditions, you know how it works by now.

[turbobloke]

Blue62 said:

2xChevrons said:

Growth for whom? The owners of the machines, sure. And perhaps for those workers who can retrain as machine technicians and installers. But taken to its logical (and, by the inherent forces of capitalism) inevitable inclusion, you end up in a world where economic production is automated, a tiny few own the machines and no one has a job. And that means that there's no one to buy any of the products or services that the automation is performing. And so the system collapses.

This is where UBI (or some other sort of socialisation of the economy) comes in to the picture.

Increasing automation and productivity should be the biggest boon for humanity (cf: utopian vision of the future from the 1950s where we would be working 2-day weeks) but productivity is always (as per your comment) mostly fed back into economic growth, not human improvement, because the economy is directed by those who hold capital (the automation).

I think that’s a little too radical for PH, they can always find another job if they don’t likc pay or conditions, you know how it works by now.

And that metooism is a bit too sneary to be accurate in any informative kind of way. It's also too simplistic. Try some Krueger, Bessen and add a drop of Peters. It's a two-way street.

On a related note, whose responsibility is it if a person needs to be employable at a given time because self-employment isn't viable for whatever reason - the individual person, or the employers who haven't employed them yet, or their government (given that a government is made up of politicians) or the EU or their preferred deity?

[HM-2]

turbobloke said:

On a related note, whose responsibility is it if a person needs to be employable at a given time because self-employment isn't viable for whatever reason - the individual person, or the employers who haven't employed them yet, or their government (given that a government is made up of politicians) or the EU or their preferred deity?

Yes.

[crankedup5]

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

The problem was that using National statistics blurs the regional reality.

You made sweeping, universal claims that weren't backed by evidence, and now you've been called out on it you're trying to move the goalposts by claiming it's all about regional variations. It's very obvious you're a long way out of your depth.

I claimed ‘regional variations’ something like five years ago, I have yet to read of a decent counter to that fact.

[crankedup5]

sugerbear said:

crankedup5 said:

sugerbear said:

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

The evidence that FOM suppresses wages hasn't been shown to be true - you can accept the lies of Richard Tice of course, but there isn't any evidence that it affects wages in any real sense.

https://fullfact.org/economy/membership-single-mar...

The problem was that using National statistics blurs the regional reality. For example not many cabbage pickers go to work in the City of London. For any luddites that cannot accept the wage suppression reality 1993 - 2020. Thousands of people coming in from the EU zone was a recipe for employers to hold down wages of the low paid, and that is what happened. Don’t like the job and low wage then ship out, plenty more ready to take the job on.
As for Richard Tice and his ‘Reform Party’, all politicians tell lies but the diffence between any of them is the co.our of the tie they wear. Voting for an outlier sends a clear message to the useless two main political Parties.

I give up. You really deserve to live a country where peoples aspirations are low paid work picking cabbages.

That’s the Country in which I have been living in under those conditions 1993 - 2020. Now we are out of the EU we can look forward to a higher wage economy, but it will take time.

[crankedup5]

sunbeam alpine said:

crankedup5 said:

It’s very unfortunate timing involved for Government, squeezing the pay of public service employees was relatively straightforward during our EU membership years. Plenty of cleaners under contract to private Companies vying for lucrative Government contracts. Plenty of nursing staff available via EU which has resulted in what we all see now. Staff leaving in droves, this caused by lousy pay, lousy hours of work, better pay in Tesco now that they have to pay higher rates to attract workers.

So Brexit pushing up wages and attracting staff away from the NHS is a good thing in your view? (Bearing in mind that the govt can't afford to pay nurses any more).

If they cave in to NHS demands, then all the other public services follow - teachers, police, fire service etc.

I suppose they could take money from pensions - after all, loads of pensioners are sat in fully-paid over-large houses they could sell to downsize and free up the cash they need to survive. Could maybe help with the housing situation.

By jove Cranked, you may be on to something after all.

Unfortunately we have had to deal with the covid pandemic, and the resulting furlough and medical costs that ensued.
Certainly the aspiration for the Country is a higher wage economy, I can’t see anything wrong with that.
U.K. pensions are amongst the lowest paid in Europe. Don’t forget, if you are fortunate you to will become a pensioner.

[HM-2]

crankedup5 said:

I claimed ‘regional variations’ something like five years ago, I have yet to read of a decent counter to that fact.

Ah yes, and it's everyone else's job to disprove whatever nonsense you happen to vomit forth, not yours to actually evidence your views.

[crankedup5]

Killboy said:

crankedup5 said:

Of course I fully agree that upping those labour rates will lead to higher consumer costs. My long term gripes have been cheap unending flow of EU labour disincentivized employers to invest into machinery / automation of processes. Why spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on that when you have a solid flow of that cheap labour.

NHS nurses replaced with machines? Wow

Blimey, we have had technology in hospitals for years now, and welcome to the ‘Virtual Ward’. Another step forward.

[sunbeam alpine]

crankedup5 said:

Unfortunately we have had to deal with the covid pandemic, and the resulting furlough and medical costs that ensued...

The whole world has had to deal with Covid. The UK has probably splurged to most money for the smallest return, but at least a few people have done well out of it, allegedly...

[crankedup5]

sunbeam alpine said:

crankedup5 said:

Killboy said:

So how do those Brits, who've experiences wage stagnation because of the never ending stream of cheap labour from the EU, benefit from having their jobs automated too?

Seriously?
Bloody hell we would still be living in caves if we adopted that attitude to progress. Automation increases productivity which leads to growth.

Sorry Cranked, but this doesn't answer the question asked.

Can we agree that technology increases production and/quality.
As a Nation we are unable to fill the vacancies available, tech/automation should be used wherever possible to release people from mundane repetitive work and offer people more fulfilling work.

[crankedup5]

2xChevrons said:

crankedup5 said:

Seriously?
Bloody hell we would still be living in caves if we adopted that attitude to progress. Automation increases productivity which leads to growth.

Growth for whom? The owners of the machines, sure. And perhaps for those workers who can retrain as machine technicians and installers. But taken to its logical (and, by the inherent forces of capitalism) inevitable inclusion, you end up in a world where economic production is automated, a tiny few own the machines and no one has a job. And that means that there's no one to buy any of the products or services that the automation is performing. And so the system collapses.

This is where UBI (or some other sort of socialisation of the economy) comes in to the picture.

Increasing automation and productivity should be the biggest boon for humanity (cf: utopian vision of the future from the 1950s where we would be working 2-day weeks) but productivity is always (as per your comment) mostly fed back into economic growth, not human improvement, because the economy is directed by those who hold capital (the automation).

Really sensible and interesting post to which I fully agree. The inevitability of progress.

[crankedup5]

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

I claimed ‘regional variations’ something like five years ago, I have yet to read of a decent counter to that fact.

Ah yes, and it's everyone else's job to disprove whatever nonsense you happen to vomit forth, not yours to actually evidence your views.

Every person is entitled to their pov, even you. If others do not wish to engage then that’s fine by me.