Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll

[turbobloke]

Oliver Hardy said:

turbobloke said:

Apart from the false assumption highlighted, pay erosion depends on the start and end periods being looked at.

Earlier in the thread I found BMA and Hansard data for pay one year in the 1970s as opposed to the current BMA cherry pick of one year in the 00s. When corrected for 2023 money using the BoE inflation calculator, pay in 2023 came out higher. Naturally that didn't go down well, there were all sorts of half-assed reasons why the BMA comparison was better, what a surprise. It's still the case that any chosen period can have its reasons and it's essentially an arbitrary process capable of manipulation via a mix of choice and excuse.
'.

Wonder what the figure would be like for bankers, CEOs, MPs? Mps voted themselves a nice pay rise every year over the last 13 years or so.

We have ex prime minister who were/are still MPs getting £100,000 for giving an after dinner speech .

Was watching talk TV today and they were moaning about the doctors strike, I was wondering how much these presenters earn for spouting their rubbish, I guess more than minimum wage, which is all they deserve including piers morgan

Edit, I believe doctors and consultants striking on the same day is immoral.

MPs voting themselves pay (and therefore pension) increases is richie rich at the best of times, and worse in the context of the JD and C strikes.

I agree that striking at the same time is cynical and unhelpful, it'll erode more support than it garners.

[turbobloke]

pghstochaj said:

Earthdweller said:

voyds9 said:

So you would be happier if they made those same decisions for say £42/hr

So much more likely would they be to make the correct decision if we tripled their wage?

My wife, a nurse, always says that September is the worst time to be a patient in a hospital as that’s when the new batch of junior Dr’s start on the wards

They have to be watched like hawks and are generally completely clueless

But is that surprising, no, because they are brand new and learning on the job .. same as in any profession

And the same as in any profession they earn more as their knowledge and experience grows

Our graduate engineers this year are totally clueless about how to be professional engineers. Of course they graduate on mid-40s in the northwest and can work a 40 hour week. I am pretty sure they are glad they didn't going into medicine to get paid £29.5k for the same 40 hour week.

Nurses now start on the same as a JD. I guess nurses on day one must be amazing?

That supports the points being made above, it's not a counterpoint. All professionals learn and grow into their roles when leaving education and starting work. JDs, nurses, engineers.

It's entirely reasonable that experieced professionals in one role (Nurses) can help by keeping an eye on more academically qualified but less work-experienced professionals (JDs) who are at the start of their careers.

The local GP surgery is short of GPs, so experienced nurses and paramedics are seeing patients, they're not newbies and do a good job. I've been treated by somebody with 'Nurse' in their job title for a serious skin condition. The next time it happened I was seen by a Consultant. Both did a very good job.

The eye-watering level of responsibility faced by JDs from the off is the reason, in my book, why they warrant a larger than average pay rise, but not 35%. And it's reassuring to learn that experienced Nurses keep a supportive eye on JDs, I suspect JDs are grateful, they ought to be.

[turbobloke]

pghstochaj said:

turbobloke said:

pghstochaj said:

Exactly. A critical thinker would perhaps say "why is Steve Barclay allowing strikes to continue when it's costing so much?". Doctors are well paid, this should not be a surprise to anybody. This is about pay erosion.

This is PH, everybody is in highly paid jobs despite only going to the university of life. Perhaps a doctor with 6 years of university and numerous hurdles to reach consultant level should also be paid well.

Apart from the false assumption highlighted, pay erosion depends on the start and end periods being looked at.

Earlier in the thread I found BMA and Hansard data for pay one year in the 1970s as opposed to the current BMA cherry pick of one year in the 00s. When corrected for 2023 money using the BoE inflation calculator, pay in 2023 came out higher. Naturally that didn't go down well, there were all sorts of half-assed reasons why the BMA comparison was better, what a surprise. It's still the case that any chosen period can have its reasons and it's essentially an arbitrary process capable of manipulation via a mix of choice and excuse.

The reason I've supported a higher pay offer than this year's 8.8% backdated to April doesn't relate to any cherry picked erosion or increase. Nor does it depend on 6 yrs at university followed by training. Contrary to the claim above the point that this is PH will give a far higher proportion of people who were at uni for 6 yrs or more and underwent continuous training afterwards, compared to the general public.

For me it's down to the exceptionally challenging level of responsibility for life and limb that JDs have. Consultants too of course, but for inexperienced JDs it has to be sphincter puckering at times, lots of times. We all hope that those years at uni and the ongoing training are doing enough for the JDs as well as their patients, which at some time will include other JDs and Consultants as well as 'the rest of us'.

Bonkers that you still struggle with this topic after so many pages. I will be honest, it frustrates me but I will try once more.

No need, I'm fine with it, all I'm doing is reacting appropriately to BMA activism and the impact of your familial vested interest. The latter is understandable, the former is out of place.

Also your counterpoint wasn't a counterpoint, you're struggling with that but I'll leave you to it.

[turbobloke]

pghstochaj said:

turbobloke said:

That supports the points being made above, it's not a counterpoint. All professionals learn and grow into their roles when leaving education and starting work. JDs, nurses, engineers.

It's entirely reasonable that experieced professionals in one role (Nurses) can help by keeping an eye on more academically qualified but less work-experienced professionals (JDs) who are at the start of their careers.

The local GP surgery is short of GPs, so experienced nurses and paramedics are seeing patients, they're not newbies and do a good job. I've been treated by somebody with 'Nurse' in their job title for a serious skin condition. The next time it happened I was seen by a Consultant. Both did a very good job.

The eye-watering level of responsibility faced by JDs from the off is the reason, in my book, why they warrant a larger than average pay rise, but not 35%. And it's reassuring to learn that experienced Nurses keep a supportive eye on JDs, I suspect JDs are grateful, they ought to be.

I was comparing nurses on day one and doctors on day one, not nurses with experience versus doctors on day one.

Why? Nobody else was, the context of (experienced) Nurses' supportive eyes on newbie JDs didn't and doesn't involve newbie Nurses obviously.

[turbobloke]

pghstochaj said:

turbobloke said:

pghstochaj said:

turbobloke said:

That supports the points being made above, it's not a counterpoint. All professionals learn and grow into their roles when leaving education and starting work. JDs, nurses, engineers.

It's entirely reasonable that experieced professionals in one role (Nurses) can help by keeping an eye on more academically qualified but less work-experienced professionals (JDs) who are at the start of their careers.

The local GP surgery is short of GPs, so experienced nurses and paramedics are seeing patients, they're not newbies and do a good job. I've been treated by somebody with 'Nurse' in their job title for a serious skin condition. The next time it happened I was seen by a Consultant. Both did a very good job.

The eye-watering level of responsibility faced by JDs from the off is the reason, in my book, why they warrant a larger than average pay rise, but not 35%. And it's reassuring to learn that experienced Nurses keep a supportive eye on JDs, I suspect JDs are grateful, they ought to be.

I was comparing nurses on day one and doctors on day one, not nurses with experience versus doctors on day one.

Why? Nobody else was, the context of (experienced) Nurses' supportive eyes on newbie JDs didn't and doesn't involve newbie Nurses obviously.

It was in response to:

"Nurses now start on the same as a JD. I guess nurses on day one must be amazing?"

Wasn't it?

Or in response to nurses assisting newbie JDs which is how it started.

No matter, I remain a supporter of a higher than average pay rise forJDs but not 35%; also for Cs but they had the sense not to punt 35%

[turbobloke]

pghstochaj said:

It absolutely has, but it has been far worse for JDs and consultants than pretty much any other sector I can find. Examples provided below.

Those charts represent the BMA cherry pick starting point of 2008, why not choose the 1970s year I did earlier in the thread? CBA to go back and find it atm, but may try later. Corrected for inflation, with the starting point I found via the BMA and Hansard, pay is higher these days. I had no interest in looking at how private sector pay compared, but it wasn't deliberately ignored and it would be useful to see.

Any trend in such circumstances depends on the starting point and end point chosen. It's essentially arbitrary, with a preferred excuse at the ready for any particular choice which is needed to make a case.

I wasn't suggesting JDs take a paycut with the 1970s and I have no personal interest in start/end points for comparisons, nor JD pay rises.

[turbobloke]

It's a cherry pick to support a case, other start-end points will tell a variety of stories. Justification to taste.

[turbobloke]

Vasco said:

Just settle at around 8% and come back in 12 months to see if things are better.

JDs already have an average 8.8% rise starting this month backdated to April, and there was recent talk of talks for next year.

[turbobloke]

gruffalo said:

JagLover said:

spaximus said:

They gave £200,000, 000 to trusts to help offset what costs they are incurring during the strikes so far, would it not be better to sort this out instead of kicking it down the road?

So one fifth of the annual cost of meeting the pay claim in full, said calculation also ignoring the value of the extra pension rights being accrued.

A one off payment vs a recurring plus growth payment of 5 times the amount every year.

Slight difference!!

Yes indeed, JagLover makes a good point.

Better the strikes weren't taking place, but here we are.

[turbobloke]

Killboy said:

Dixy said:

It is interesting the bluster from some here who say the Doctors should know their place yet when they lie on a trolley in ED cry like a coward and would offer the virtue of their first born child.

Applauding such bizarre hyperbole? Strange, but it was bound to happen.

[turbobloke]

julian64 said:

turbobloke said:

Killboy said:

Dixy said:

It is interesting the bluster from some here who say the Doctors should know their place yet when they lie on a trolley in ED cry like a coward and would offer the virtue of their first born child.

Applauding such bizarre hyperbole? Strange, but it was bound to happen.

He has a significant point though. I have lost track of how many people who can't actually reconcile their opinion to their experience,<snip>

The point is, whatever point there was, vanished in the deep slosh of emoting juice.

It's as well, when faced with hyper-emotive material pushing a politicised cause, that placing emotion over reason is the way of the propagandist.

Papers on propaganda in social media and the associated use of emotion:
https://www.jstor.org/stable/26912445
https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-65...

Paper on emphasising emotion and belief in fake news:
https://cognitiveresearchjournal.springeropen.com/...

[turbobloke]

gangzoom said:

greygoose said:

About time too.

Consultant talks have been progressing for a while now, as far as I know there is still zero movement on the junior doctors bit, which requires a resolution ASAP.

That'll be the JD dispute with the ridiculous% initial claim, unlike consultants, so it's not surprising to read about the consultant talks.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

Just for the record, Junior doctors are now the only group that wont get this :

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67314988

Only? Some nurses?
Are JDs non-NHS? Is the BBC article clear and accurate?

Link above said:

The decision to fund the bonus will only apply to non-NHS organisations. Some "bank" staff - who provide temporary cover for hospital trusts to fill rota gaps - have lobbied to be included in the scheme will not receive the payment.

Patricia Marquis, of the Royal College of Nursing, welcomed the announcement but added there was more work to be done.

"Unfortunately there are some nursing staff delivering NHS care who will not get this... The department must provide clarity on who will receive the funding."

ETA can't see a reason to exclude those excluded, assuming the article is clear and accurate

Edited by turbobloke on Saturday 11th November 14:11

[turbobloke]

sawman said:

He is talking about the enforced percentage rise that was awarded, rather than the cash bung, that turned the nurses heads

Edited by sawman on Sunday 12th November 08:17

I won't speak for somebody else, so maybe, however that was an approx 8% increase for JDs so it's not obvious in relation to a one-off fixed payment.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

To all of you who argue against a pay increase, congratulations on your pyrrhic victory.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-67378621

All 5% of those polled, and if the NHS gets staff it needs, that'll be a surprise.

[turbobloke]

S600BSB said:

sawman said:

BMA rep on the radio said they were not particularly recommending this deal to their members, but hopefully it leads to resolution and slows down the medic brain drain.

he mentioned that aside from the current lack of independence of the pay review body, the brain drain is their main issue, and you can understand this when a starter consultant in Republic of Ireland, will be making £185k before thinking about private work, as opposed to the £99k in England as mentioned above

That’s Brexit for you!

Clearly not, but it is remainers.

The gov't had a spokesbod on the news yesterday, referring to the consultant progress and avoiding isolating JDs, however if the JD BMA contingent militancy level means they remain glued to 35% then there's not a lot of room to work within.

[turbobloke]

spaximus said:

turbobloke said:

S600BSB said:

sawman said:

BMA rep on the radio said they were not particularly recommending this deal to their members, but hopefully it leads to resolution and slows down the medic brain drain.

he mentioned that aside from the current lack of independence of the pay review body, the brain drain is their main issue, and you can understand this when a starter consultant in Republic of Ireland, will be making £185k before thinking about private work, as opposed to the £99k in England as mentioned above

That’s Brexit for you!

Clearly not, but it is remainers.

The gov't had a spokesbod on the news yesterday, referring to the consultant progress and avoiding isolating JDs, however if the JD BMA contingent militancy level means they remain glued to 35% then there's not a lot of room to work within.

They have never been glued to that. Barclay refused to enter negotiations at all with the BMA unless they dropped that claim before having any discussions. No union would do that.

In which case that's a form of time-dependent glue. It (35%) may not be formally dropped, but will be in effect as it'll never happen in one go.

spaximus said:

The new Health Secretary is doing the job and negotiating with the consultants and JD which had Barclay done this it would have been over months ago.

Remember Barclay said there was no more money that is it, she has found some already and signed of on it.

This year's rise of approx 8% for JDs isn't going to turn into 35% under any Health Sec. Was Barclay referring to JDs before the consultants joined in? Is there any more money for this year beyond the approx 8%?

JDs won't get 35% so any BMA negotiation skills were scuppered from the outset. If the JD strike is resolved for next year, that's a good thing.

[turbobloke]

sawman said:

poo at Paul's said:

Has anyone noticed yet?

Probably just the poor buggers who have had their treatment cancelled.

Although, in many cases staffing levels is not much worse on strike days than it is the rest of the time, on account of the shocking understaffing that had developed in the last few years.

Today, as a foundation 1 doc (graduated this summer) my eldest is the only medic in the general surgery ward, the consultant and resistrar are in theatre, she is carrying both of their phones to pick up emergencies. monitoring and managing all the patient s on the ward who are waiting for, or have recently had general surgery.

Whilst the senior staff are in theatre there is no one for her to discuss deteriorating patients with, and so is effectively on her own, with all the responsibility that comes with.
All for £3 pound an hour more than the cleaner on the ward.

Edited by sawman on Sunday 17th December 08:17

The level of responsibility is clear, and the general situation your daughter faces can only be described as dire.
On the pay aspect, the cleaner doesn't have her pension or prospects. All aspects of the package need to be considered surely, I read than the employer contribution averages around 20% of salary,..if I read it correctly pre-coffee.

https://www.nhsemployers.org/articles/nhs-pension-...

[turbobloke]

Mrr T said:

turbobloke said:

sawman said:

poo at Paul's said:

Has anyone noticed yet?

Probably just the poor buggers who have had their treatment cancelled.

Although, in many cases staffing levels is not much worse on strike days than it is the rest of the time, on account of the shocking understaffing that had developed in the last few years.

Today, as a foundation 1 doc (graduated this summer) my eldest is the only medic in the general surgery ward, the consultant and resistrar are in theatre, she is carrying both of their phones to pick up emergencies. monitoring and managing all the patient s on the ward who are waiting for, or have recently had general surgery.

Whilst the senior staff are in theatre there is no one for her to discuss deteriorating patients with, and so is effectively on her own, with all the responsibility that comes with.
All for £3 pound an hour more than the cleaner on the ward.

Edited by sawman on Sunday 17th December 08:17

The level of responsibility is clear, and the general situation your daughter faces can only be described as dire.
On the pay aspect, the cleaner doesn't have her pension or prospects. All aspects of the package need to be considered surely, I read than the employer contribution averages around 20% of salary,..if I read it correctly pre-coffee.

https://www.nhsemployers.org/articles/nhs-pension-...

If you read it again you will see thats not the contribution to her pension.

This is what took me to that site.
https://thumbsnap.com/sc/N6M5Aj9f.png

I'd looked at another site (BMA) and that also looked to be around 20% (20.6%) employer contribution.
https://www.bma.org.uk/pay-and-contracts/pensions/...

Having had a coffee I'm now working, so in addition to a short-cut to the actual employer pension contribution, do you think an NHS cleaner (employee not contract) has remotely similar prospects - and the pay progression that goes with it - as per my post, which would make the simplistic comparison I replied to any less irrelevant?

[turbobloke]

sawman said:

turbobloke said:

The level of responsibility is clear, and the general situation your daughter faces can only be described as dire.
On the pay aspect, the cleaner doesn't have her pension or prospects. All aspects of the package need to be considered surely, I read than the employer contribution averages around 20% of salary,..if I read it correctly pre-coffee.

https://www.nhsemployers.org/articles/nhs-pension-...

Agreed that career prospects may be stronger, (if she stays!) the pension scheme is the same CARE deal for both, the cleaner will be contributing 6.8%, whilst sawgirl's contribution 9.8% , obviously the benefits are relative to career earnings but possible pension in 40 years doesnt pay mortgage / rent / running a car / food now.

Agreed again, the total package including prospects and progression are significantly different. If the cleaner is a contract cleaner then far more so. The level of responsibility faced by your daughter so early in her career is very heavy indeed and imo worth more than the average 8% rise imposed this year, I've mentioned several times earlier in the thread that for my part as an observer I'd support a similar % rise to the JD offer in Scotland (12.4% and accepted iirc).