Scrapping non dom status
Discussion
caziques said:
To the best of my knowledge, "rich" people tend to have significant unrealised capital gains each year. These amounts plus their income are added up and compared with the actual tax paid, invariably giving a lower overall percentage rate.
Some sort of wealth tax could capture some of these "gains", but that is another whole can of worms.
A capital gain is only achieved and measured upon the sale of that asset, so it’s taxed at that point.Some sort of wealth tax could capture some of these "gains", but that is another whole can of worms.
Mrr T said:
GT03ROB said:
OutInTheShed said:
I know people in the oil industry who own homes in the UK but spend x-days a year out of the country to avoid becoming tax resident.
I imagine many of the non-doms who don't move their business out of the UK entirely will do similar.
If taxes rise, getting some tax-free work abroad becomes even more attractive.
Also fairly ordinary people start to realise that earning extra doesn't improve their lives very much, early retirement and semi-retirement become more appealing with every tax rise.
Non-dom & Non-res are 2 very different tax statuses. I benefit as non-res but will never benefit as non-dom. I imagine many of the non-doms who don't move their business out of the UK entirely will do similar.
If taxes rise, getting some tax-free work abroad becomes even more attractive.
Also fairly ordinary people start to realise that earning extra doesn't improve their lives very much, early retirement and semi-retirement become more appealing with every tax rise.
I've been non-res for a lot of my working life for the simple reason that UK taxes as PAYE mean the reward does not justify the effort.
Non-dom is a UK tax law that allows you to be resident in the UK but not domiciled.
Mrr T said:
PH pedantry. If your not resident in the UK you are also not domiciled in the UK.
Non-dom is a UK tax law that allows you to be resident in the UK but not domiciled.
I don't think that's correct, is it (my bold)?Non-dom is a UK tax law that allows you to be resident in the UK but not domiciled.
Someone (a UK citizen) who is, say, on a secondment overseas but will afterwards return to the UK is an example of a non-resident but with UK domicile.
AIUI domicile is a strange concept based on where you intend to live (and die?) eventually, where you consider home, where your parents were from and probably other stuff too.
Tax residency is based on where you physically are for a certain number of days in the year.
Happy to be corrected by a tax guru however!
Mr Penguin said:
NuckyThompson said:
If they leave what money were we actually making from them? What’s the argument for non-dom?
They spend large sums of money here which generates jobs and indirect taxes. Rufus Stone said:
Oliver Hardy said:
I don't really know where he gets his pennies from. know he worked in the city, know his in laws are very well off
I know he has stakes in some businesses from news reports, but what they are ?
They also have an income from dad's in law company.
I have some shares here and there, what I receive seems to be taxed at normal rates, although I got a pay out this month from one of the companies I have shares in and it wasn't taxed, I got 54 pence!. Thinking of move to Italy!
So you saw a misleading headline somewhere and ran with it. I know he has stakes in some businesses from news reports, but what they are ?
They also have an income from dad's in law company.
I have some shares here and there, what I receive seems to be taxed at normal rates, although I got a pay out this month from one of the companies I have shares in and it wasn't taxed, I got 54 pence!. Thinking of move to Italy!
For those saying we should be in a race to offer the lowest tax rates to companies and the very rich to get them here as we might get a few £ of their spending then it's partly true but masks a much bigger issue. The reason so many people lower down the ladder are paying more taxes and getting less in return is partly down to doing this.
Company 1 pays 40% tax in Country A. Moves it's profits to Country B because they offer 0% tax but are happy to make a few quid on the jobs this creates. So country A loses out, country B gets a small benefit and Company 1 makes huge profits. Everyone else has to pay more tax as Company 1 uses to fund a bunch of the government spending via tax before offshoring it.
So by saying yes to taking the scraps from Non-Doms we make the overall issue worse, and some other country will offer them a bit better deal and make us lose out even more. The only ones benefitting being the rich using this. We need a worldwide agreement to try and make the tax rates more equal between the very wealth and normal people - and it will bring down the tax rates as a result.
Company 1 pays 40% tax in Country A. Moves it's profits to Country B because they offer 0% tax but are happy to make a few quid on the jobs this creates. So country A loses out, country B gets a small benefit and Company 1 makes huge profits. Everyone else has to pay more tax as Company 1 uses to fund a bunch of the government spending via tax before offshoring it.
So by saying yes to taking the scraps from Non-Doms we make the overall issue worse, and some other country will offer them a bit better deal and make us lose out even more. The only ones benefitting being the rich using this. We need a worldwide agreement to try and make the tax rates more equal between the very wealth and normal people - and it will bring down the tax rates as a result.
Mrr T said:
GT03ROB said:
OutInTheShed said:
I know people in the oil industry who own homes in the UK but spend x-days a year out of the country to avoid becoming tax resident.
I imagine many of the non-doms who don't move their business out of the UK entirely will do similar.
If taxes rise, getting some tax-free work abroad becomes even more attractive.
Also fairly ordinary people start to realise that earning extra doesn't improve their lives very much, early retirement and semi-retirement become more appealing with every tax rise.
Non-dom & Non-res are 2 very different tax statuses. I benefit as non-res but will never benefit as non-dom. I imagine many of the non-doms who don't move their business out of the UK entirely will do similar.
If taxes rise, getting some tax-free work abroad becomes even more attractive.
Also fairly ordinary people start to realise that earning extra doesn't improve their lives very much, early retirement and semi-retirement become more appealing with every tax rise.
I've been non-res for a lot of my working life for the simple reason that UK taxes as PAYE mean the reward does not justify the effort.
Non-dom is a UK tax law that allows you to be resident in the UK but not domiciled.
When I have been non-res I have remained with a UK Domicile.
Effectively non-res relates to the here & now, whereas non-dom relates to your history & future intentions.
NRS said:
So by saying yes to taking the scraps from Non-Doms we make the overall issue worse, and some other country will offer them a bit better deal and make us lose out even more. The only ones benefitting being the rich using this. We need a worldwide agreement to try and make the tax rates more equal between the very wealth and normal people - and it will bring down the tax rates as a result.
Your argument hides two inconvenient truths which is:1)there are not enough rich people to tax , for it to make much of a difference to the poor. The number of financially poor people in the world number is extraordinary.
2)when rich people spend money it directly helps those in the service industries - financially poor people
Therefore it's better to have them here, spending money than not.
We live in a society where we invite millions of people that will never hit the 40% bands , never mind earn 150k a year and we keep finding ways of repelling those that, some of them, earn 150k week.
and about the asset price thing, the types of assets these people buy won't effect 99.8% of people.
Carl_VivaEspana said:
NRS said:
So by saying yes to taking the scraps from Non-Doms we make the overall issue worse, and some other country will offer them a bit better deal and make us lose out even more. The only ones benefitting being the rich using this. We need a worldwide agreement to try and make the tax rates more equal between the very wealth and normal people - and it will bring down the tax rates as a result.
Your argument hides two inconvenient truths which is:1)there are not enough rich people to tax , for it to make much of a difference to the poor. The number of financially poor people in the world number is extraordinary.
2)when rich people spend money it directly helps those in the service industries - financially poor people
Therefore it's better to have them here, spending money than not.
We live in a society where we invite millions of people that will never hit the 40% bands , never mind earn 150k a year and we keep finding ways of repelling those that, some of them, earn 150k week.
and about the asset price thing, the types of assets these people buy won't effect 99.8% of people.
Basically if everyone is more evenly rewarded for work it will help more people, instead of the few at the top who hoover ever more up. Just look at the stats, Covid made it even worse.
NRS said:
we leave it to the rest to pay more because the wealth created is being stripped out and going to a few - as shown by increasing wealth inequality.
Encouraging wealthy people to come here and remain here prevents wealth being stripped out - taken abroad.Chasing wealthy people away certainly increases equality - by making us all poorer. If you think it increases equality by definition you accept people will be taking wealth out.
This will be exactly like the 50p income tax band. It will raise no revenue whatsoever. Just annoy people and discourage capital coming in. And like the 50p tax rate its nothing but a trap set for an incoming government. Cheered on by people who don't understand.
GT03ROB said:
Mrr T said:
GT03ROB said:
OutInTheShed said:
I know people in the oil industry who own homes in the UK but spend x-days a year out of the country to avoid becoming tax resident.
I imagine many of the non-doms who don't move their business out of the UK entirely will do similar.
If taxes rise, getting some tax-free work abroad becomes even more attractive.
Also fairly ordinary people start to realise that earning extra doesn't improve their lives very much, early retirement and semi-retirement become more appealing with every tax rise.
Non-dom & Non-res are 2 very different tax statuses. I benefit as non-res but will never benefit as non-dom. I imagine many of the non-doms who don't move their business out of the UK entirely will do similar.
If taxes rise, getting some tax-free work abroad becomes even more attractive.
Also fairly ordinary people start to realise that earning extra doesn't improve their lives very much, early retirement and semi-retirement become more appealing with every tax rise.
I've been non-res for a lot of my working life for the simple reason that UK taxes as PAYE mean the reward does not justify the effort.
Non-dom is a UK tax law that allows you to be resident in the UK but not domiciled.
When I have been non-res I have remained with a UK Domicile.
Effectively non-res relates to the here & now, whereas non-dom relates to your history & future intentions.
Prepare for a fudge. You’ll get used to it Rob.
BikeBikeBIke said:
NRS said:
we leave it to the rest to pay more because the wealth created is being stripped out and going to a few - as shown by increasing wealth inequality.
Encouraging wealthy people to come here and remain here prevents wealth being stripped out - taken abroad.Chasing wealthy people away certainly increases equality - by making us all poorer. If you think it increases equality by definition you accept people will be taking wealth out.
This will be exactly like the 50p income tax band. It will raise no revenue whatsoever. Just annoy people and discourage capital coming in. And like the 50p tax rate its nothing but a trap set for an incoming government. Cheered on by people who don't understand.
If we follow your logic and another countries offers them a better deal we need to make them an even better lower tax package, and the end result is no tax on the very wealthy, which means even more tax on everyone else.
As for your ‘cheered on by others who don’t understand’… I understand pretty well. I’m earning 6 figures, but have chosen to live in one of the highest tax countries in the world, Norway. I could earn a lot more elsewhere too, but to be honest part of the issue is in the UK it’s a race to the bottom where companies and the rich are paying less tax % wise than many below them and it’s creating a lot of other issues as a result for services etc. People lucky enough to earn very well should be happy to give back instead of trying to take more. It’s a better society. In the worst case you get something like the French Revolution when people get too fed up of inequality growing too much.
Hants PHer said:
Mrr T said:
PH pedantry. If your not resident in the UK you are also not domiciled in the UK.
Non-dom is a UK tax law that allows you to be resident in the UK but not domiciled.
I don't think that's correct, is it (my bold)?Non-dom is a UK tax law that allows you to be resident in the UK but not domiciled.
Someone (a UK citizen) who is, say, on a secondment overseas but will afterwards return to the UK is an example of a non-resident but with UK domicile.
AIUI domicile is a strange concept based on where you intend to live (and die?) eventually, where you consider home, where your parents were from and probably other stuff too.
Tax residency is based on where you physically are for a certain number of days in the year.
Happy to be corrected by a tax guru however!
If your not resident then you are not domiciled. As an example if your not resident you are not taxable on non UK income or for inheritance in the UK. Non dom status is a uniquely UK tax law where you are UK resident but only UK taxable on income brought into the UK and not subject to inheritance tax on non UK assets.
You can only be a non dom if your a UK resident
Mrr T said:
Hants PHer said:
Mrr T said:
PH pedantry. If your not resident in the UK you are also not domiciled in the UK.
Non-dom is a UK tax law that allows you to be resident in the UK but not domiciled.
I don't think that's correct, is it (my bold)?Non-dom is a UK tax law that allows you to be resident in the UK but not domiciled.
Someone (a UK citizen) who is, say, on a secondment overseas but will afterwards return to the UK is an example of a non-resident but with UK domicile.
AIUI domicile is a strange concept based on where you intend to live (and die?) eventually, where you consider home, where your parents were from and probably other stuff too.
Tax residency is based on where you physically are for a certain number of days in the year.
Happy to be corrected by a tax guru however!
If your not resident then you are not domiciled. As an example if your not resident you are not taxable on non UK income or for inheritance in the UK. Non dom status is a uniquely UK tax law where you are UK resident but only UK taxable on income brought into the UK and not subject to inheritance tax on non UK assets.
You can only be a non dom if your a UK resident
Why would these people want to stay in the UK paying tax on income not generated in the UK?
Mrr T said:
Hants PHer said:
Mrr T said:
PH pedantry. If your not resident in the UK you are also not domiciled in the UK.
Non-dom is a UK tax law that allows you to be resident in the UK but not domiciled.
I don't think that's correct, is it (my bold)?Non-dom is a UK tax law that allows you to be resident in the UK but not domiciled.
Someone (a UK citizen) who is, say, on a secondment overseas but will afterwards return to the UK is an example of a non-resident but with UK domicile.
AIUI domicile is a strange concept based on where you intend to live (and die?) eventually, where you consider home, where your parents were from and probably other stuff too.
Tax residency is based on where you physically are for a certain number of days in the year.
Happy to be corrected by a tax guru however!
If your not resident then you are not domiciled. As an example if your not resident you are not taxable on non UK income or for inheritance in the UK. Non dom status is a uniquely UK tax law where you are UK resident but only UK taxable on income brought into the UK and not subject to inheritance tax on non UK assets.
You can only be a non dom if your a UK resident
I think you are all forgetting that there has never been the need to encourage rich people to come and live in London. They have been doing it for decades. This is not because of our non-dom status but because of our language and the relative safety of the UK. To that end we should tax that privilege and see how they react.
Mrr T said:
Not a tax guru but do have some reasonable tax knowledge.
If your not resident then you are not domiciled. As an example if your not resident you are not taxable on non UK income or for inheritance in the UK. Non dom status is a uniquely UK tax law where you are UK resident but only UK taxable on income brought into the UK and not subject to inheritance tax on non UK assets.
You can only be a non dom if your a UK resident
Sorry but I think your [sic] second sentence shows that you're [sic] wrong. It's perfectly possible for a UK citizen to be non-resident but retain UK domicile. It's exactly what happens when a UK citizen goes off to work overseas for a while, with the intention of returning to the UK after their foreign stint ends.If your not resident then you are not domiciled. As an example if your not resident you are not taxable on non UK income or for inheritance in the UK. Non dom status is a uniquely UK tax law where you are UK resident but only UK taxable on income brought into the UK and not subject to inheritance tax on non UK assets.
You can only be a non dom if your a UK resident
However, your other sentences are correct I think.
Gassing Station | News, Politics & Economics | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff