Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll
Poll: Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll
Total Members Polled: 1036
Discussion
Murph7355 said:
s1962a said:
Not sure if you saw the links I posted earlier - the £1.6bn is what it'll cost to pay junior doctors 35% more vs the £4.6bn we spent on them last year for agency staff. Of course any pay offer can come with conditions and a commitment to the NHS etc.
Increasing Junior doctor salaries by 35% would cost £1.65bn
https://www.bma.org.uk/media/6665/junior-doctor-pa...
the NHS spends £4.6bn on agency doctors
https://www2.staffingindustry.com/%20eng/Editorial...
You are juxtaposing two different numbers.Increasing Junior doctor salaries by 35% would cost £1.65bn
https://www.bma.org.uk/media/6665/junior-doctor-pa...
the NHS spends £4.6bn on agency doctors
https://www2.staffingindustry.com/%20eng/Editorial...
The 4.6bn doesn’t seem to be only spent on junior agency doctors.
Paying the 1.6bn junior doctor increase in no way guarantees that the 4.6bn wouldn't need to be spent. Or even that 1.6bn of it wouldn't need to be.
Regarding tie ins to training, why not like the Royal Navy Medical Cadet sponsorship?
From the Navy
Fully funded tuition fees and a salary while you study
The opportunity to start a medical or dental career that takes you all over the world
Medical training that matches that of NHS professionals, but with greater potential for further specialist training
Support throughout your studies
From you
You’ll need to join your local University Royal Naval Unit (URNU) where there will be training courses for you to attend, making the transition to military life smoother
6 years minimum service post qualification.
Murph7355 said:
That could be fixed in several ways I suspect. What would happen if the govt simply said "no more agency". As you note, they could add more flexible perm roles... But would all of that 4.6bn of work simply not get done? How would the people doing it fill the earnings void?
Maybe the honesty needs to start there, and we all get told that large chunks of service are simply no longer viable unless we pay more tax (to pay higher wages to carrot people into working).
Why isn't that an option for the health secretary then? Tell the NHS that no more agency staff, and just turn people away at the door if they don't have enough staff to cover. Sounds quite simple to be honest.Maybe the honesty needs to start there, and we all get told that large chunks of service are simply no longer viable unless we pay more tax (to pay higher wages to carrot people into working).
FiF said:
Absolutely correct Murph.
Regarding tie ins to training, why not like the Royal Navy Medical Cadet sponsorship?
From the Navy
Fully funded tuition fees and a salary while you study
The opportunity to start a medical or dental career that takes you all over the world
Medical training that matches that of NHS professionals, but with greater potential for further specialist training
Support throughout your studies
From you
You’ll need to join your local University Royal Naval Unit (URNU) where there will be training courses for you to attend, making the transition to military life smoother
6 years minimum service post qualification.
This is a good idea. Also if there is a significant pay increase for existing junior doctors, then a new contract which requires a "5 year minimum" service in the NHS could be part of it too, to help with doctor retention.Regarding tie ins to training, why not like the Royal Navy Medical Cadet sponsorship?
From the Navy
Fully funded tuition fees and a salary while you study
The opportunity to start a medical or dental career that takes you all over the world
Medical training that matches that of NHS professionals, but with greater potential for further specialist training
Support throughout your studies
From you
You’ll need to join your local University Royal Naval Unit (URNU) where there will be training courses for you to attend, making the transition to military life smoother
6 years minimum service post qualification.
Doctor shortages? Back in 2008 the BMA voted against increasing training places. They are a trade union. Their member's intrests come first.
https://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748
43k sounds OK to me 2 years out of university.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-junior-do...
Seems on of the leaders only talks the talk but has taken time off for the strikedays so will get paid.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/13/junior...
https://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748
43k sounds OK to me 2 years out of university.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-junior-do...
Seems on of the leaders only talks the talk but has taken time off for the strikedays so will get paid.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/13/junior...
Edited by irc on Thursday 13th April 11:15
irc said:
Doctor shortages? Back in 2008 the BMA voted against increasing training places. They are a trade union. Their member's intrests come first.
https://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748
43k sounds OK to me 2 years out of university.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-junior-do...
Seems on of the leaders only talks the talk but has taken time off for the strikedays so will get paid.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/13/junior...
I love how those organs compare the total pay including masses of overtime and unsociable hours, vs average regular salaries elsewhere. Nothing selective there https://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a748
43k sounds OK to me 2 years out of university.
https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-junior-do...
Seems on of the leaders only talks the talk but has taken time off for the strikedays so will get paid.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/04/13/junior...
Edited by irc on Thursday 13th April 11:15
And let's not talk about £90k student debt...
skwdenyer said:
...
And let's not talk about £90k student debt...
The stuff that only starts getting paid back when earning decent money? And that doesn't "count" in the same way as normal debt typically, when going through life?And let's not talk about £90k student debt...
And the ones where you only start repaying if earning over a threshold (22k+ at present) and then at 9% of the delta (so earn 33k a year, you pay 80 quid a month).
And the ones govt doesn’t expect most to be fully paid off?
Don't get me wrong, as noted earlier I think govt should fully fund some courses, medical ones amongst them.
But dogma cuts all ways on all subjects, including student loans.
s1962a said:
Murph7355 said:
That could be fixed in several ways I suspect. What would happen if the govt simply said "no more agency". As you note, they could add more flexible perm roles... But would all of that 4.6bn of work simply not get done? How would the people doing it fill the earnings void?
Maybe the honesty needs to start there, and we all get told that large chunks of service are simply no longer viable unless we pay more tax (to pay higher wages to carrot people into working).
Why isn't that an option for the health secretary then? Tell the NHS that no more agency staff, and just turn people away at the door if they don't have enough staff to cover. Sounds quite simple to be honest.Maybe the honesty needs to start there, and we all get told that large chunks of service are simply no longer viable unless we pay more tax (to pay higher wages to carrot people into working).
But it never will be as the caterwauling about how unfair everything is will be unpalatable to politicians of all hues.
My view is that unless we start to make significant changes in approach, they will eventually be enforced upon us in an uncontrollable way. And the sad part of that is that those who will be most impacted will be the genuinely poorest.
So would they.
A little known fact is that a junior doctor moves hospital each year. Each year the National HS says they are leaving and gives them a P45 They start at the next Trust and have a week of introduction, how to wash your hands, hear is your badge where are your vaccine certificates. A month latter they get their pay slip, in 10 years Miss Dixys has always been wrong and 6 months later she gets a demand from the HMRC because they have f
ked that up as well.
This is just another of the countless reasons why they have had enough, they just want to do their best to make people better. They spend 30% of the time being bullied or fighting to sort things out.
A little known fact is that a junior doctor moves hospital each year. Each year the National HS says they are leaving and gives them a P45 They start at the next Trust and have a week of introduction, how to wash your hands, hear is your badge where are your vaccine certificates. A month latter they get their pay slip, in 10 years Miss Dixys has always been wrong and 6 months later she gets a demand from the HMRC because they have f
ked that up as well.This is just another of the countless reasons why they have had enough, they just want to do their best to make people better. They spend 30% of the time being bullied or fighting to sort things out.
The Junior Doctors' strike has been brought about as a result of years of erosion of conditions and pay. Regardless of how accurate the 25% real-terms pay cut is, it's safe to say that doctors have not been as active as other unions over the last decade or so when it comes to pay negotiations. Additionally one of the key features of doctors in general is that they're truly appalling at sticking together and rather than having a unified voice there has always been a cohort who are of the opinion that doctors should be doing this almost out of the goodness of their hearts. This is evident in the kind of article printed in the Spectator and it merely serves to provide dissenting opinions with ammunition as to why a significant increase in pay should be refused.
The NHS has been run in large part on goodwill on the part of its employees for many years. Putting in extra unpaid hours to ensure things got done was common and the reciprocal of this was that there was an environment within the service where management would look after the staff. In hospitals an example of this would be getting access to a rota to allow you to plan leave. At present it's not unheard of for people to not have access to their rota until the day they start and for people to move to a new hospital and to be expected to start a series of night shifts with no induction on local policies or processes. This might not sound like a big deal but when you're having to do this every 4 or 6 months it can be something of a challenge. The result of this is that the goodwill that previously existed among Junior Doctors has been exhausted. Additionally the 'gold-plated pensions' and job security are things of the past. My wife works 80% but the vagaries of the NHS pension mean that she has to essentially pay full-time contributions but will only get a pension that is equivalent to her part-time percentage.
What we're seeing at the moment is something of an awakening of Junior Doctors who are treating their employment as a job. For an increasing number the idea of medicine being a vocation has gone and there's an increasing understanding that people with their intelligence, education and drive deserve more than they're being paid. You'd pay a plumber £75 an hour to come and fix a leak in the middle of the night so why shouldn't someone who is potentially going to save your life be paid at least the same?
For those of your that have said that if they don't like it then they can leave, that's exactly what they're doing. This removal of service just happens to be coordinated and for the Government to say that this is going to be disruptive, well that's kind of the point. If you don't think Junior Doctors should be paid more 'because we can't afford it' then that's fine, the alternative to this is that we end up with an increasingly privatised system. The only problem with that is that you'll end up paying even more for that service in the form of insurance premiums.
The NHS has been run in large part on goodwill on the part of its employees for many years. Putting in extra unpaid hours to ensure things got done was common and the reciprocal of this was that there was an environment within the service where management would look after the staff. In hospitals an example of this would be getting access to a rota to allow you to plan leave. At present it's not unheard of for people to not have access to their rota until the day they start and for people to move to a new hospital and to be expected to start a series of night shifts with no induction on local policies or processes. This might not sound like a big deal but when you're having to do this every 4 or 6 months it can be something of a challenge. The result of this is that the goodwill that previously existed among Junior Doctors has been exhausted. Additionally the 'gold-plated pensions' and job security are things of the past. My wife works 80% but the vagaries of the NHS pension mean that she has to essentially pay full-time contributions but will only get a pension that is equivalent to her part-time percentage.
What we're seeing at the moment is something of an awakening of Junior Doctors who are treating their employment as a job. For an increasing number the idea of medicine being a vocation has gone and there's an increasing understanding that people with their intelligence, education and drive deserve more than they're being paid. You'd pay a plumber £75 an hour to come and fix a leak in the middle of the night so why shouldn't someone who is potentially going to save your life be paid at least the same?
For those of your that have said that if they don't like it then they can leave, that's exactly what they're doing. This removal of service just happens to be coordinated and for the Government to say that this is going to be disruptive, well that's kind of the point. If you don't think Junior Doctors should be paid more 'because we can't afford it' then that's fine, the alternative to this is that we end up with an increasingly privatised system. The only problem with that is that you'll end up paying even more for that service in the form of insurance premiums.
FiF said:
Let me guess, you didn't read it. The 6 figures refers to consultants and even then makes clear some consultants don't make that.
It's true junior doctor core pay has fallen in real terms about 12%. But the disingenuous and mathematically illiterate way the BMA is using to try and justify 35% increase just marks them out as unworthy. Even FullFact has debunked the £14/hr ballocks.
I did. Its still funny It's true junior doctor core pay has fallen in real terms about 12%. But the disingenuous and mathematically illiterate way the BMA is using to try and justify 35% increase just marks them out as unworthy. Even FullFact has debunked the £14/hr ballocks.
Paying someone 29k because one day they may make six figures is a little funny. When they finally do, they'll probably find out that they still cant afford an average mortgage.
Killboy said:
I did. Its still funny
Paying someone 29k because one day they may make six figures is a little funny. When they finally do, they'll probably find out that they still cant afford an average mortgage.
It is £29K for the first year and it isn't exactly unusual for professionals on training contracts to be earning low 20s for the first couple of years after uni, in fact it is common. Paying someone 29k because one day they may make six figures is a little funny. When they finally do, they'll probably find out that they still cant afford an average mortgage.
SiH said:
The Junior Doctors' strike has been brought about as a result of years of erosion of conditions and pay. Regardless of how accurate the 25% real-terms pay cut is, it's safe to say that doctors have not been as active as other unions over the last decade or so when it comes to pay negotiations. Additionally one of the key features of doctors in general is that they're truly appalling at sticking together and rather than having a unified voice there has always been a cohort who are of the opinion that doctors should be doing this almost out of the goodness of their hearts. This is evident in the kind of article printed in the Spectator and it merely serves to provide dissenting opinions with ammunition as to why a significant increase in pay should be refused.
The NHS has been run in large part on goodwill on the part of its employees for many years. Putting in extra unpaid hours to ensure things got done was common and the reciprocal of this was that there was an environment within the service where management would look after the staff. In hospitals an example of this would be getting access to a rota to allow you to plan leave. At present it's not unheard of for people to not have access to their rota until the day they start and for people to move to a new hospital and to be expected to start a series of night shifts with no induction on local policies or processes. This might not sound like a big deal but when you're having to do this every 4 or 6 months it can be something of a challenge. The result of this is that the goodwill that previously existed among Junior Doctors has been exhausted. Additionally the 'gold-plated pensions' and job security are things of the past. My wife works 80% but the vagaries of the NHS pension mean that she has to essentially pay full-time contributions but will only get a pension that is equivalent to her part-time percentage.
What we're seeing at the moment is something of an awakening of Junior Doctors who are treating their employment as a job. For an increasing number the idea of medicine being a vocation has gone and there's an increasing understanding that people with their intelligence, education and drive deserve more than they're being paid. You'd pay a plumber £75 an hour to come and fix a leak in the middle of the night so why shouldn't someone who is potentially going to save your life be paid at least the same?
For those of your that have said that if they don't like it then they can leave, that's exactly what they're doing. This removal of service just happens to be coordinated and for the Government to say that this is going to be disruptive, well that's kind of the point. If you don't think Junior Doctors should be paid more 'because we can't afford it' then that's fine, the alternative to this is that we end up with an increasingly privatised system. The only problem with that is that you'll end up paying even more for that service in the form of insurance premiums.
"people with their intelligence, education and drive deserve more than they're being paid."The NHS has been run in large part on goodwill on the part of its employees for many years. Putting in extra unpaid hours to ensure things got done was common and the reciprocal of this was that there was an environment within the service where management would look after the staff. In hospitals an example of this would be getting access to a rota to allow you to plan leave. At present it's not unheard of for people to not have access to their rota until the day they start and for people to move to a new hospital and to be expected to start a series of night shifts with no induction on local policies or processes. This might not sound like a big deal but when you're having to do this every 4 or 6 months it can be something of a challenge. The result of this is that the goodwill that previously existed among Junior Doctors has been exhausted. Additionally the 'gold-plated pensions' and job security are things of the past. My wife works 80% but the vagaries of the NHS pension mean that she has to essentially pay full-time contributions but will only get a pension that is equivalent to her part-time percentage.
What we're seeing at the moment is something of an awakening of Junior Doctors who are treating their employment as a job. For an increasing number the idea of medicine being a vocation has gone and there's an increasing understanding that people with their intelligence, education and drive deserve more than they're being paid. You'd pay a plumber £75 an hour to come and fix a leak in the middle of the night so why shouldn't someone who is potentially going to save your life be paid at least the same?
For those of your that have said that if they don't like it then they can leave, that's exactly what they're doing. This removal of service just happens to be coordinated and for the Government to say that this is going to be disruptive, well that's kind of the point. If you don't think Junior Doctors should be paid more 'because we can't afford it' then that's fine, the alternative to this is that we end up with an increasingly privatised system. The only problem with that is that you'll end up paying even more for that service in the form of insurance premiums.
I'd think more of this reasoning if the pay/conditions were now vastly different. When the current cohort of Jnr Dr's were still only contemplating a career in medicine, there were strikes going on in the the NHS. There have been, and will always be.
No, I don't think Jnr Drs should receive a 35% pay rise. I think it's entirely risible - probably devised by Union relics thinking it a good place to start.
There is no reason why the UK could not follow similar tax/insurance systems in place across many parts of Europe. But to do so would require comprehensive root & branch reform of the behemoth. Lets face it - that isn't going to happen in a 2 party system. Because if one of the 2 parties started down that road, you can be certain the other party would use it as a rod to beat them / scare the public with. We're always "24hrs away from saving the NHS" / "privatising the NHS" / "selling it to US Corp" etc. etc. these are mantra's learned by rote, and all of them ironically only serve to extend the demise of a system hasn't been fit for purpose for some time. It's a tragic mess.
ukwill said:
I'd think more of this reasoning if the pay/conditions were now vastly different. When the current cohort of Jnr Dr's were still only contemplating a career in medicine, there were strikes going on in the the NHS. There have been, and will always be.
When you were 15 and choosing your A-levels, or 17 and choosing which degree you were going to do, how far up your list of priorities were organisational politics and working conditions?To be clear, that's a rhetorical question. If your answer is anything other than "they weren't" then you're either a freak or simply lying.
deckster said:
ukwill said:
I'd think more of this reasoning if the pay/conditions were now vastly different. When the current cohort of Jnr Dr's were still only contemplating a career in medicine, there were strikes going on in the the NHS. There have been, and will always be.
When you were 15 and choosing your A-levels, or 17 and choosing which degree you were going to do, how far up your list of priorities were organisational politics and working conditions?To be clear, that's a rhetorical question. If your answer is anything other than "they weren't" then you're either a freak or simply lying.
deckster said:
When you were 15 and choosing your A-levels, or 17 and choosing which degree you were going to do, how far up your list of priorities were organisational politics and working conditions?
To be clear, that's a rhetorical question. If your answer is anything other than "they weren't" then you're either a freak or simply lying.
Sorry, not taking that seriously.To be clear, that's a rhetorical question. If your answer is anything other than "they weren't" then you're either a freak or simply lying.
SiH said:
The Junior Doctors' strike has been brought about as a result of years of erosion of conditions and pay. Regardless of how accurate the 25% real-terms pay cut is, it's safe to say that doctors have not been as active as other unions over the last decade or so when it comes to pay negotiations. Additionally one of the key features of doctors in general is that they're truly appalling at sticking together and rather than having a unified voice there has always been a cohort who are of the opinion that doctors should be doing this almost out of the goodness of their hearts. This is evident in the kind of article printed in the Spectator and it merely serves to provide dissenting opinions with ammunition as to why a significant increase in pay should be refused.
The NHS has been run in large part on goodwill on the part of its employees for many years. Putting in extra unpaid hours to ensure things got done was common and the reciprocal of this was that there was an environment within the service where management would look after the staff. In hospitals an example of this would be getting access to a rota to allow you to plan leave. At present it's not unheard of for people to not have access to their rota until the day they start and for people to move to a new hospital and to be expected to start a series of night shifts with no induction on local policies or processes. This might not sound like a big deal but when you're having to do this every 4 or 6 months it can be something of a challenge. The result of this is that the goodwill that previously existed among Junior Doctors has been exhausted. Additionally the 'gold-plated pensions' and job security are things of the past. My wife works 80% but the vagaries of the NHS pension mean that she has to essentially pay full-time contributions but will only get a pension that is equivalent to her part-time percentage.
What we're seeing at the moment is something of an awakening of Junior Doctors who are treating their employment as a job. For an increasing number the idea of medicine being a vocation has gone and there's an increasing understanding that people with their intelligence, education and drive deserve more than they're being paid. You'd pay a plumber £75 an hour to come and fix a leak in the middle of the night so why shouldn't someone who is potentially going to save your life be paid at least the same?
For those of your that have said that if they don't like it then they can leave, that's exactly what they're doing. This removal of service just happens to be coordinated and for the Government to say that this is going to be disruptive, well that's kind of the point. If you don't think Junior Doctors should be paid more 'because we can't afford it' then that's fine, the alternative to this is that we end up with an increasingly privatised system. The only problem with that is that you'll end up paying even more for that service in the form of insurance premiums.
Well said. We have "junior" doctors in the family, and a lot of the extra work they do is down to their goodwill and wanting to help their patients. The overwork and stress seems part of the job and in my opinion they do not get paid adequately for what they do and the risk they take on. How many of us would stay back hours after a shift ends to make sure one of their "customers" (patients) gets the treatment they need?The NHS has been run in large part on goodwill on the part of its employees for many years. Putting in extra unpaid hours to ensure things got done was common and the reciprocal of this was that there was an environment within the service where management would look after the staff. In hospitals an example of this would be getting access to a rota to allow you to plan leave. At present it's not unheard of for people to not have access to their rota until the day they start and for people to move to a new hospital and to be expected to start a series of night shifts with no induction on local policies or processes. This might not sound like a big deal but when you're having to do this every 4 or 6 months it can be something of a challenge. The result of this is that the goodwill that previously existed among Junior Doctors has been exhausted. Additionally the 'gold-plated pensions' and job security are things of the past. My wife works 80% but the vagaries of the NHS pension mean that she has to essentially pay full-time contributions but will only get a pension that is equivalent to her part-time percentage.
What we're seeing at the moment is something of an awakening of Junior Doctors who are treating their employment as a job. For an increasing number the idea of medicine being a vocation has gone and there's an increasing understanding that people with their intelligence, education and drive deserve more than they're being paid. You'd pay a plumber £75 an hour to come and fix a leak in the middle of the night so why shouldn't someone who is potentially going to save your life be paid at least the same?
For those of your that have said that if they don't like it then they can leave, that's exactly what they're doing. This removal of service just happens to be coordinated and for the Government to say that this is going to be disruptive, well that's kind of the point. If you don't think Junior Doctors should be paid more 'because we can't afford it' then that's fine, the alternative to this is that we end up with an increasingly privatised system. The only problem with that is that you'll end up paying even more for that service in the form of insurance premiums.
You wouldn't want the pilots flying your plane to your holiday destination be overworked, tired, and unhappy with their pay, yet you think it's ok for doctors to be subjugated to that? Like you said, if they don't like it they can leave, and the fact is that a lot of them are.
Don't forget that we paid £4.6bn to agencies to cover shifts for doctors (junior + consultant), and it would cost £1.6bn to give junior doctors a 35% payrise, and that £4.6bn bill could start to be reduced over a multi year period with more retention of staff.
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