Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[sugerbear]

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

The evidence that FOM suppresses wages hasn't been shown to be true - you can accept the lies of Richard Tice of course, but there isn't any evidence that it affects wages in any real sense.

https://fullfact.org/economy/membership-single-mar...

[maz8062]

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

It’s one of those right wing arguments that continues to spout nonsense about the EU contributing to low wages with zero upsides to FOM. Low wages for the most part was down to a low inflation economy, best to blame China, India, Bangladesh and other low wage economies for that.

With low inflation and plenty of willing and strapping young folk ready to work, wages were always going to track inflation. However, inflation for the top executives, CEO’s etc has gone through the roof at the expense of the worker. Nothing to do with FOM, just a bunch of greedy bds.

The upside however, is that prices were kept low for the masses. Now prices are on the up wages will too, but will they keep up with inflation? Unlikely. So there’ll be strikes, discontent, further price rises, bankruptcies etc etc.

[Mrr T]

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

Did you actually read my post? FOM had a small negative affect on the lowest paid but NO affect on wages for the majority.

I believe this happened because from my experience most from EE arrived with little money. This meant they had to get work immediately. So would take any job initially. Once they had some money they would get a better job.

As for my comments about eduction. Check your post above you used the words "low skills"? But we know the educational levels of EE immigrants was above the UK average.

[crankedup5]

sugerbear said:

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

The evidence that FOM suppresses wages hasn't been shown to be true - you can accept the lies of Richard Tice of course, but there isn't any evidence that it affects wages in any real sense.

https://fullfact.org/economy/membership-single-mar...

The problem was that using National statistics blurs the regional reality. For example not many cabbage pickers go to work in the City of London. For any luddites that cannot accept the wage suppression reality 1993 - 2020. Thousands of people coming in from the EU zone was a recipe for employers to hold down wages of the low paid, and that is what happened. Don’t like the job and low wage then ship out, plenty more ready to take the job on.
As for Richard Tice and his ‘Reform Party’, all politicians tell lies but the diffence between any of them is the co.our of the tie they wear. Voting for an outlier sends a clear message to the useless two main political Parties.

[crankedup5]

Mrr T said:

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

Did you actually read my post? FOM had a small negative affect on the lowest paid but NO affect on wages for the majority.

I believe this happened because from my experience most from EE arrived with little money. This meant they had to get work immediately. So would take any job initially. Once they had some money they would get a better job.

As for my comments about eduction. Check your post above you used the words "low skills"? But we know the educational levels of EE immigrants was above the UK average.

You take the prize for the most ridiculous post this week

[crankedup5]

maz8062 said:

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

It’s one of those right wing arguments that continues to spout nonsense about the EU contributing to low wages with zero upsides to FOM. Low wages for the most part was down to a low inflation economy, best to blame China, India, Bangladesh and other low wage economies for that.

With low inflation and plenty of willing and strapping young folk ready to work, wages were always going to track inflation. However, inflation for the top executives, CEO’s etc has gone through the roof at the expense of the worker. Nothing to do with FOM, just a bunch of greedy bds.

The upside however, is that prices were kept low for the masses. Now prices are on the up wages will too, but will they keep up with inflation? Unlikely. So there’ll be strikes, discontent, further price rises, bankruptcies etc etc.

We only have to look at the current situation with the striking nurses and other health staff in the NHS. They have been squeezed on wages for ten years or more, much the same for many other low paid jobs, low pay rooted in the dreadful FOM policy encouraging employers to take full advantage of an unending over supply of cheap labour.

[turbobloke]

crankedup5 said:

maz8062 said:

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

It’s one of those right wing arguments that continues to spout nonsense about the EU contributing to low wages with zero upsides to FOM. Low wages for the most part was down to a low inflation economy, best to blame China, India, Bangladesh and other low wage economies for that.

With low inflation and plenty of willing and strapping young folk ready to work, wages were always going to track inflation. However, inflation for the top executives, CEO’s etc has gone through the roof at the expense of the worker. Nothing to do with FOM, just a bunch of greedy bds.

The upside however, is that prices were kept low for the masses. Now prices are on the up wages will too, but will they keep up with inflation? Unlikely. So there’ll be strikes, discontent, further price rises, bankruptcies etc etc.

We only have to look at the current situation with the striking nurses and other health staff in the NHS. They have been squeezed on wages for ten years or more, much the same for many other low paid jobs, low pay rooted in the dreadful FOM policy encouraging employers to take full advantage of an unending over supply of cheap labour.

EU: context matters
Click

[Killboy]

crankedup5 said:

We only have to look at the current situation with the striking nurses and other health staff in the NHS. They have been squeezed on wages for ten years or more, much the same for many other low paid jobs, low pay rooted in the dreadful FOM policy encouraging employers to take full advantage of an unending over supply of cheap labour.

How's that wage negotiation going?

[sunbeam alpine]

crankedup5 said:

Thousands of people coming in from the EU zone was a recipe for employers to hold down wages of the low paid, and that is what happened...

crankedup5 said:

We only have to look at the current situation with the striking nurses and other health staff in the NHS. They have been squeezed on wages for ten years or more, much the same for many other low paid jobs, low pay rooted in the dreadful FOM policy encouraging employers to take full advantage of an unending over supply of cheap labour.

Cranked, you keep repeating this. You appear to be of the opinion that low wages worked exclusively to the benefit of rich employers, who spent their time lighting Cuban cigars with £50 notes while grinding the faces of the poor.

I would suggest that by far the biggest benefit of low wages was that things generally got done in the UK. The current situation appears to be that there aren't enough people in the UK prepared to fill a lot of the lower paid/skilled jobs, which has contributed to the sorry state in which the UK currently finds itself.

It's all very well saying "pay them more", but that can only work if those additional costs can be passed on through to consumers, fuelling inflation, and increasing costs for everyone.

[Mrr T]

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

Did you actually read my post? FOM had a small negative affect on the lowest paid but NO affect on wages for the majority.

I believe this happened because from my experience most from EE arrived with little money. This meant they had to get work immediately. So would take any job initially. Once they had some money they would get a better job.

As for my comments about eduction. Check your post above you used the words "low skills"? But we know the educational levels of EE immigrants was above the UK average.

You take the prize for the most ridiculous post this week

So back to FOM suppressed wages even though all the evidence collected by all these economists say the exact opposite. Just because you believe something even though all the evidence says you are wrong is rather ridiculous. And says far more about you than me.

[sugerbear]

crankedup5 said:

sugerbear said:

crankedup5 said:

Mrr T said:

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

Because you don’t recall wage suppression being a brexit point doesn’t mean it didn’t exist.

Can you point to an instance of wage suppression being highlighted in pro-Brexit literature as something Brexit would stop?

crankedup5 said:

What brexit has achieved thus far is to stop FOM which flooded our Country with low skills.

So you think that current immigration, which is the highest on record by an enormous margin, consists of highly skilled persons? Madness.

Cranks does not need evidence if he believes somethings, even if the evidence say different, then he will continue to make the claims.

The fact that all the studies showed EU immigration had no affect on wages except at the very lowest, and the average EU immigrant was educated above the UK average. That does not matter to cranks who believes no one in EE went to school.

amongst all the froth and nonsense spouted by anti brexit in here and elsewhere it’s refreshing to read that you Mr T has acknowledged that wage suppression was due to EU policy, namely FOM.
You acknowledge that the lowest paid did suffer, well done it’s only taken six years to get there.
As for the comment regarding my beliefs in education of people, why do you spout these lies? I know you and others are desperate to win an internet point but telling lies is not the way forward.

The evidence that FOM suppresses wages hasn't been shown to be true - you can accept the lies of Richard Tice of course, but there isn't any evidence that it affects wages in any real sense.

https://fullfact.org/economy/membership-single-mar...

The problem was that using National statistics blurs the regional reality. For example not many cabbage pickers go to work in the City of London. For any luddites that cannot accept the wage suppression reality 1993 - 2020. Thousands of people coming in from the EU zone was a recipe for employers to hold down wages of the low paid, and that is what happened. Don’t like the job and low wage then ship out, plenty more ready to take the job on.
As for Richard Tice and his ‘Reform Party’, all politicians tell lies but the diffence between any of them is the co.our of the tie they wear. Voting for an outlier sends a clear message to the useless two main political Parties.

I give up. You really deserve to live a country where peoples aspirations are low paid work picking cabbages.

[HM-2]

crankedup5 said:

The problem was that using National statistics blurs the regional reality.

You made sweeping, universal claims that weren't backed by evidence, and now you've been called out on it you're trying to move the goalposts by claiming it's all about regional variations. It's very obvious you're a long way out of your depth.

[Mortarboard]

HM-2 said:

crankedup5 said:

The problem was that using National statistics blurs the regional reality.

You made sweeping, universal claims that weren't backed by evidence, and now you've been called out on it you're trying to move the goalposts by claiming it's all about regional variations. It's very obvious you're a long way out of your depth.

Leveling up with fix that though, right?

Right?

Or is that remainers fault too?

M.

[Mrr T]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/ng-interactiv...

Interesting discussion on the polls.

[crankedup5]

Killboy said:

crankedup5 said:

We only have to look at the current situation with the striking nurses and other health staff in the NHS. They have been squeezed on wages for ten years or more, much the same for many other low paid jobs, low pay rooted in the dreadful FOM policy encouraging employers to take full advantage of an unending over supply of cheap labour.

How's that wage negotiation going?

It’s very unfortunate timing involved for Government, squeezing the pay of public service employees was relatively straightforward during our EU membership years. Plenty of cleaners under contract to private Companies vying for lucrative Government contracts. Plenty of nursing staff available via EU which has resulted in what we all see now. Staff leaving in droves, this caused by lousy pay, lousy hours of work, better pay in Tesco now that they have to pay higher rates to attract workers.

[sunbeam alpine]

crankedup5 said:

It’s very unfortunate timing involved for Government, squeezing the pay of public service employees was relatively straightforward during our EU membership years. Plenty of cleaners under contract to private Companies vying for lucrative Government contracts. Plenty of nursing staff available via EU which has resulted in what we all see now. Staff leaving in droves, this caused by lousy pay, lousy hours of work, better pay in Tesco now that they have to pay higher rates to attract workers.

So Brexit pushing up wages and attracting staff away from the NHS is a good thing in your view? (Bearing in mind that the govt can't afford to pay nurses any more).

If they cave in to NHS demands, then all the other public services follow - teachers, police, fire service etc.

I suppose they could take money from pensions - after all, loads of pensioners are sat in fully-paid over-large houses they could sell to downsize and free up the cash they need to survive. Could maybe help with the housing situation.

By jove Cranked, you may be on to something after all.

[HM-2]

Can't beat doubling down on the same rhetoric that's been fairly conclusively demonstrated false and hoping nobody noticed

[crankedup5]

sunbeam alpine said:

crankedup5 said:

Thousands of people coming in from the EU zone was a recipe for employers to hold down wages of the low paid, and that is what happened...

crankedup5 said:

We only have to look at the current situation with the striking nurses and other health staff in the NHS. They have been squeezed on wages for ten years or more, much the same for many other low paid jobs, low pay rooted in the dreadful FOM policy encouraging employers to take full advantage of an unending over supply of cheap labour.

Cranked, you keep repeating this. You appear to be of the opinion that low wages worked exclusively to the benefit of rich employers, who spent their time lighting Cuban cigars with £50 notes while grinding the faces of the poor.

I would suggest that by far the biggest benefit of low wages was that things generally got done in the UK. The current situation appears to be that there aren't enough people in the UK prepared to fill a lot of the lower paid/skilled jobs, which has contributed to the sorry state in which the UK currently finds itself.

It's all very well saying "pay them more", but that can only work if those additional costs can be passed on through to consumers, fuelling inflation, and increasing costs for everyone.

It’s impossible not to recognise that low cost labour was an important factor in maintaining profit margins. Look at supermarket food supplies, we all know that the suppliers to the supermarkets were being really squeezed, particuarly in the delivery of food. That means those businesses producing food have had no option but to trim down their costs - hello cheap labour.
When you say that the benefit of low cost labour. want that things generally got done, I agree, but it
was/is unacceptable to see the pay ratio between CEO and the median pay widen so rapidly and the very high percentage. Plenty of that detail can be found.
The fact that our EU friends have left the U.K. workforce certainly contributes to our labour shortages. Also adding to that a massive exodus of our ‘over 50s age group have left the job market since covid struck. The work is simply so unattractive with such low pay rates say’s it all about how the U.K. has over relied upon cheap immigrant labour.

Of course I fully agree that upping those labour rates will lead to higher consumer costs. My long term gripes have been cheap unending flow of EU labour disincentivized employers to invest into machinery / automation of processes. Why spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on that when you have a solid flow of that cheap labour.

[Killboy]

crankedup5 said:

It’s very unfortunate timing involved for Government, squeezing the pay of public service employees was relatively straightforward during our EU membership years. Plenty of cleaners under contract to private Companies vying for lucrative Government contracts. Plenty of nursing staff available via EU which has resulted in what we all see now. Staff leaving in droves, this caused by lousy pay, lousy hours of work, better pay in Tesco now that they have to pay higher rates to attract workers.

But what about the 350m a week we could find the NHS with?

[Killboy]

crankedup5 said:

Of course I fully agree that upping those labour rates will lead to higher consumer costs. My long term gripes have been cheap unending flow of EU labour disincentivized employers to invest into machinery / automation of processes. Why spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on that when you have a solid flow of that cheap labour.

NHS nurses replaced with machines? Wow