Scottish Politics / Independence - Vol 12

[Big Rod]

fat80b said:

fat80b said:

Slightly off topic, but an interesting aside nonetheless:

I don't believe that is how Whatsapp works. In that even if there was a legal way to compel it, my understanding (from the tech side of things) is that Meta don't actually store long term backups of your (encrypted) messages. i.e. All of Nicola's deleted (and not yet deleted) Whatsapps aren't sat on some server somewhere . And if they were manually deleted by both users from both users' phones, then the content no longer exists.

I believe that Whatsapp only actually stores everything on the two users' phones (once messages have been delivered). In the case of a message being sent and not yet received, WA store it for a short amount of time whilst they try to deliver the message (something like a couple of weeks) . If it doesn't get delivered (e.g. because the receving device is off etc), then the message gets quietly dropped and not retained.

Even if Meta did keep a backup of the messages (which they don't) then they were all end to end encrypted anyway (a very good thing imho) which means that even if there was a backup, it is not actually useful to anyone as the encryption means that the only two devices that can decrypt the messages are the sending and receiving ones..

The thing that Meta do store (aiui) is the metadata (no pun intended) - This would likely show how many messages were sent, who they were sent to, perhaps how long they were, when they were deleted etc;- While not the smoking gun, it may demonstrate indirectly that the claim of "I didn't conduct business on Whatsapp" to be another Lie.....

Do you have actual industry knowledge of this 8ob or is this speculation?

Genuine question, not trying to start a debate/spat.

I'm just curious as I work in a related industry.

[Evercross]

Big Rod said:

fat80b said:

Slightly off topic, but an interesting aside nonetheless:

I don't believe that is how Whatsapp works. In that even if there was a legal way to compel it, my understanding (from the tech side of things) is that Meta don't actually store long term backups of your (encrypted) messages. i.e. All of Nicola's deleted (and not yet deleted) Whatsapps aren't sat on some server somewhere . And if they were manually deleted by both users from both users' phones, then the content no longer exists.

I believe that Whatsapp only actually stores everything on the two users' phones (once messages have been delivered). In the case of a message being sent and not yet received, WA store it for a short amount of time whilst they try to deliver the message (something like a couple of weeks) . If it doesn't get delivered (e.g. because the receving device is off etc), then the message gets quietly dropped and not retained.

Even if Meta did keep a backup of the messages (which they don't) then they were all end to end encrypted anyway (a very good thing imho) which means that even if there was a backup, it is not actually useful to anyone as the encryption means that the only two devices that can decrypt the messages are the sending and receiving ones..

The thing that Meta do store (aiui) is the metadata (no pun intended) - This would likely show how many messages were sent, who they were sent to, perhaps how long they were, when they were deleted etc;- While not the smoking gun, it may demonstrate indirectly that the claim of "I didn't conduct business on Whatsapp" to be another Lie.....

Do you have actual industry knowledge of this 8ob or is this speculation?

Genuine question, not trying to start a debate/spat.

I'm just curious as I work in a related industry.

Pretty sure 8ob's description of how Whatsapp works is accurate, based on Meta's own explanation of how it operates which can be found in various places online. They could of course be being economical with the truth (as big tech seems to be a law unto itself), but I suspect that the reason some people think that Meta can and does take backups is because they cannot distinguish between the competing and co-existing cloud storage facilities on their various devices. They just see 'a phone' and perceive its different functions provided via different tech firms as one homogenous lump.

My android phone, for example, has the ability to backup my Whatsapp messsages to a Google drive account, which can then be retrieved on a desktop running the Windows version of whatsapp if I also supply my Google account details to it. That might explain the notion that 'going back to a previous device' retrieved deleted messages. It wasn't the previous device per-se that contained the messages but instead it accessed a backup sent to a cloud account that that device was still logged into.

[Leithen]

irc said:

Kate Forbes must be sitting up north laughing like fk that Humza is having to deal with all this stshow. He had the chance to come in an be the new broom and blame it all on the Sturgeon era but he blew it.

Although he had been part of thr Sturgeon govt the big decisions were all taken by the Sturgeon clique not the cabinet.

Forbes might have her own issues to deal with in the enquiry - she was at the heart of it too, although apparently not entirely trusted by the central cabal.

[alangla]

Ever wondered what Leitch and Yousaf chat about of an evening? https://covid19.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploa...

[irc]

alangla said:

Ever wondered what Leitch and Yousaf chat about of an evening? https://covid19.public-inquiry.uk/wp-content/uploa...

Yes. Jason Leitch the neutral civil servant on the public payroll.

" In his message, Professor Leitch said: "Just done MSP briefing. They were mostly fine. Very reasonable and predictable. Edward Mountain rude and Daniel Johnson a smartarse. Otherwise fine.”

When Mr Yousaf asked for more details, Prof Leitch replied: “My Mum taught me never to be rude. Mountain was head shaking and harrumphing....like a child.”

The First Minister said Paul Sweeney, another Labour MSP, “will also be one to watch, he will tell you how to do your job”. "

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/24077217.profe...

Sounds more like an SNP party activist than a neutral civil servant.

[Klippie]

The messages we have seen so far have not shed a good light on the SNP, basically confirmed what we all knew they are a bunch of lying bds with zero thought for the well being of Scotlands citizens...they would have let everyone of us die if it progressed their pathetic agendas.

So the deleted and secret hidden messages must be proprer juicy, they clearly must be able to implicate Sturgeon and the rest of the cult for the crimes they need to go to jail for.

I don't care who it is someone must take them to the highest court in the land, get all the deleted messages from the providers and properly bury these awful s.

[tim0409]

I was absolutely opposed to lock downs after the first three weeks given the massive and far reaching collateral damage they were obviously going to cause, so to find out that these cretins decided to extend the lock downs to further the cause of independence increases my levels of hatred towards them to a visceral level.

My mum was taken into a care home during this period as a result of worsening dementia, and I was unable to see her and when I could it was behind a stupid plastic screen in a shed in the garden with an intercom. It was one of the most distressing experiences of my life due to my mums reaction, and these fking idiots were busy plotting how to make the most of the situation.

Scum.

[biggles330d]

Siko said:

ZedLeg said:

After talking about income tax in the hypothetical I've been put into a situation where I have to make a decision about what I'm going to do.

Having some restructuring at work and I've been offered a promotion that's going to be based in Brighton. I can still mostly work from home but I will be required in the office occasionally. The salary increase will take me into the higher tax rate in Scotland but not England, so do I move to Brighton bearing in mind that housing costs are looking to be double what I pay here or stay, pay the higher tax on a little of my salary and put up with a long commute a couple of times a month?

I'm leaning towards the latter at the moment.

Congrats on the promotion and hope whatever you do it works out for you

interesting parallel here and maybe a precursor of a wider reaction when the reality hits in April for a lot of people. The O/H's income level has fallen into the band that will have a 65% marginal tax rate. Yes, it's a decent living and we are certainly comfortable, but not living on champagne and oysters. But having done the calculation last night she's going to see a drop in take home of over £500 a month, simply in additional tax.
There's been the obvious discussion about additional pension contributions, which in effect would lead to an even greater drop but with the benefit that at least you might see it back in retirement.

But it's the reaction I've found interesting. She's come from a modest upbringing and feels she has worked really hard to get ahead and only in the last few years finally feels like she's properly got ahead of things. Its meant going for promotion and she's currently in a challenging job that for the most part she really likes, to be at the salary level she's at. But the change has caused her to realise the extra grief of this job simply isn't financially worth it and she would be no less off having kept her previous job that she enjoyed equally that wasn't paid as much but had far fewer of the challenges in the current position that bring her home in tears more often than I'd like.

The thing is, in her sector there is a lot of people approaching or not far into this new tax bracket (its senior leader level public sector) who are going to get hammered from April. The obvious thing will happen.
1. Those close to retirement may well conclude it's not worth hanging on and experience will leave.
2. Those in slightly lower grades who are also being nibbled will realise that promotion and increased pay simply isn't financially worth it any more so recruitment to more senior people will be much harder, apart from those whose motivation is biased towards status, power and ego. This obviously will suppress ambition and make it an easy decision for some just to decide coasting is better, so economic productivity is hit, especially in the private sector I'd imagine.
3. Pay demands at the top end will become huge as people seek to bridge the tax gap and try to get back to a take home income they previously had (and I'm sure in some cases had built a lifestyle around).

The thing is, she's very much of a left leaning mindset, but I've found it fascinating that having found herself to be in that increasing bracket of 'those with the broadest shoulders' as a result of simply working hard and trying to better herself, the reality of it feels extremely unfair.
As I said, there are going to be a lot of people who will be in for a painful shock in April who maybe haven't even given it a thought yet.

We'll not starve, but it definitely feels like a Scottish Labour manifesto that includes returning to parity with English taxes would be a massive open goal for a hugely increased number of the population come the next Holyrood election.

Edited by biggles330d on Saturday 27th January 08:19

[Carl_VivaEspana]

At this point, nobody needs to see the deleted Whatapp messages, the fact that they were deleted is even worse.

[Rick_1138]

Is there validity to the stuff i am seeing about online that UNRWA that Humza gave £750k of taxpayers monay, had a part to play in the Oct 7 massacre??

[irc]

Klippie said:

So the deleted and secret hidden messages must be proprer juicy, they clearly must be able to implicate Sturgeon and the rest of the cult for the crimes they need to go to jail for.
.

The early days of the Covid epidemic - March 2020 - was the same time as Alex Salmonds High Court trial. There is a possibility that as well as Covid messages there may also have been messages relating to Salmond's case which would have been more than merely embarrassing for the senders. In which case taking the flack and penalties (if any) for mass deletion may be the lesser of two evils.

It was useful of course that they could shout "govt policy!" when doing it. A policy which may have been very useful to those that brought it in.

[irc]

biggles330d said:

The thing is, she's very much of a left leaning mindset, but I've found it fascinating that having found herself to be in that increasing bracket of 'those with the broadest shoulders' as a result of simply working hard and trying to better herself, the reality of it feels extremely unfair.

No offence intended here Biggles but this is a charateristic of many left leaning people IMO. Wanting more money to be spent of what are usually though not always, good causes while not wanting to put their hands in their own pockets.

The Fraser of Allander Inst proposed a revenue neutral reform to Scottish income tax rates which would remove the current unfair anomalies. Rather than 42% between £43k and £50k it would be 23%. In my case the SNP would get around £1500 more tax from me as I paid 23% rather than sticking it in a pension. It would be 43% from £50k to £125k. This might be a viable policy for Scottish Labour as they wouldn't need to budget for losing any tax while making the bands and rates fairer.

https://fraserofallander.org/potential-reforms-to-...

You can work very hard in a lot of jobs and not come out with all that much. On the other hand commit a massive £40k benefit fraud and your "punishment" is 200 hours community service. An effective rate of £200 per hour tax free.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/s...

[biggles330d]

irc said:

No offence intended here Biggles but this is a charateristic of many left leaning people IMO. Wanting more money to be spent of what are usually though not always, good causes while not wanting to put their hands in their own pockets.

The Fraser of Allander Inst proposed a revenue neutral reform to Scottish income tax rates which would remove the current unfair anomalies. Rather than 42% between £43k and £50k it would be 23%. In my case the SNP would get around £1500 more tax from me as I paid 23% rather than sticking it in a pension. It would be 43% from £50k to £125k. This might be a viable policy for Scottish Labour as they wouldn't need to budget for losing any tax while making the bands and rates fairer.

https://fraserofallander.org/potential-reforms-to-...

You can work very hard in a lot of jobs and not come out with all that much. On the other hand commit a massive £40k benefit fraud and your "punishment" is 200 hours community service. An effective rate of £200 per hour tax free.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/s...

Fair comment and I don't necessarily disagree, and I say that as probably being less left leaning than her! I think the perception at any level is that 'people earning more than me should pay more', is fine, until the net is lowered so far that you're in it and then the reality of that becomes very real and especially disproportionate as is proposed from April.
This time though, the net is so far into the 'middle exec / professional' classes (for want a better phrase) that loads of people will be caught and for a great many it will be perceived as a punishment for working hard and wanting to improve your lot. Thats the feeling here - "why have I even bothered when any reward for it is just snatched back. I'm not actually any better off for it." It's a killer of ambition.

Your tax model described would be much more palatable, although the kicker at the moment is the tapering of the tax-free allowance. You're bitten aggressively at both ends.

I might look in to the benefit fraud. Seems a good option!

[biggles330d]

If money is so tight, which I'm sure it is, other parties would do well to look at reigning in the freebies that SNP have created. Of course you have to make stuff affordable for the really low earners, but I don't think anyone above a reasonably modest income would object to paying a few quid for prescriptions and eye tests etc. It's mad it's free for me as a perfect example!
The free university places has become a busted flush as places for Scottish students is being wound back and Universities are chasing much higher paying English and international students. How's that helping the Scottish youth???
Ferries.Need say no more. Absolute money pit of politically created shambles born of nothing more than myopic dogma rather than actually wanting to improve ferry services.
Roll on the Holyrood elections is all I say.

[irc]

biggles330d said:

If money is so tight, which I'm sure it is, other parties would do well to look at reigning in the freebies that SNP have created. Of course you have to make stuff affordable for the really low earners, but I don't think anyone above a reasonably modest income would object to paying a few quid for prescriptions and eye tests etc. It's mad it's free for me as a perfect example!

I agree. I went to the chemist for a tube of that anti virus cream. £7 is for branded or maybe half that for generic. To which I was told you don't need to pay for that. The pharmacist can do a prescription now and it's free.

In this case as it was for Mrs IRC who has near zero income I agreed. Next time when it was for me I just paid for it.

It is wrong that cheap generic over the counter medicines can in some cases be precribed regardless of the income of the recipient.

[Big Rod]

biggles330d said:

If money is so tight, which I'm sure it is, other parties would do well to look at reigning in the freebies that SNP have created. Of course you have to make stuff affordable for the really low earners, but I don't think anyone above a reasonably modest income would object to paying a few quid for prescriptions and eye tests etc. It's mad it's free for me as a perfect example!
The free university places has become a busted flush as places for Scottish students is being wound back and Universities are chasing much higher paying English and international students. How's that helping the Scottish youth???
Ferries.Need say no more. Absolute money pit of politically created shambles born of nothing more than myopic dogma rather than actually wanting to improve ferry services.
Roll on the Holyrood elections is all I say.

Without meaning to sound like a rich Toaree Basturt, I baulked at the free prescriptions. The village where our surgery/pharmacy is, is in what's deemed to be quite an underprivileged area while a few miles outside are considered sort'a affluent.

Being relatively comfortable, I'd much rather I paid for my 'scripts on the odd occasion that I need one and use the pot for people who might actually need it. That in my mind is unfair.

And don't get me started on the child benefit nonsense. When we had kids, we weren't too badly off and I said to the DWP or whoever administers it that we didn't really need it and I'd rather not take it and give it to someone more requiring of the assistance but they said I 'had' to have it. FFWD a few years and now they want a chunk of it back! (But that's not a Scottish thing so I'll shut up.)

[Earthdweller]

Rick_1138 said:

Is there validity to the stuff i am seeing about online that UNRWA that Humza gave £750k of taxpayers monay, had a part to play in the Oct 7 massacre??

Seems so .. the allegations are there at least

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/26/unrwa-pro...

[irc]

Earthdweller said:

Rick_1138 said:

Is there validity to the stuff i am seeing about online that UNRWA that Humza gave £750k of taxpayers monay, had a part to play in the Oct 7 massacre??

Seems so .. the allegations are there at least

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/1/26/unrwa-pro...

Why are we surprised? The UN jobs are probably some of the better employment options in Gaza. Naturally when a state is run by a terrorist organisation it will ensure it gets it's members into the money.

[alangla]

irc said:

I agree. I went to the chemist for a tube of that anti virus cream. £7 is for branded or maybe half that for generic. To which I was told you don't need to pay for that. The pharmacist can do a prescription now and it's free.

In this case as it was for Mrs IRC who has near zero income I agreed. Next time when it was for me I just paid for it.

It is wrong that cheap generic over the counter medicines can in some cases be precribed regardless of the income of the recipient.

What’s really wrong is, AIUI, Pharmacy First attracts a dispensing fee for the pharmacy, as it does with a prescription from a doctor, so your £7 cream is, again, AIUI and I’m happy to be corrected, more like £17 to the taxpayer. As it’s “free” to the recipient, there’s then incentives on both sides to put things via the scheme that would, could and almost certainly should, be over the counter cash transactions.

As a Covid era workaround I guess it made sense, but it now appears to be a very expensive way of keeping people out of GP’s surgeries & lining the pockets of pharmacies.

Edit: a bit of digging shows that £30.8m is budgeted for Pharmacy First this year and last. Can’t find the dispensing charges though https://www.gov.scot/publications/foi-202300368069...

Edited by alangla on Saturday 27th January 12:04

[Scrump]

biggles330d said:

interesting parallel here and maybe a precursor of a wider reaction when the reality hits in April for a lot of people. The O/H's income level has fallen into the band that will have a 65% marginal tax rate. Yes, it's a decent living and we are certainly comfortable, but not living on champagne and oysters. But having done the calculation last night she's going to see a drop in take home of over £500 a month, simply in additional tax.

I may be misunderstanding the situation, so apologies if that is the case.
I cannot see how an increase in salary and moving into a higher tax band will cause a reduction in take home pay. The higher tax rate is only applied to the amount over the threshold.