Junior Doctors' Pay Claim Poll

[turbobloke]

S600BSB said:

djc206 said:

Media plugging the IFS stats showing the consultants claim to be very reasonable. Also showing where would be appropriate for the govt and JD’s to meet should discussions resume which surely they have to at some point.

Govt stating full and final doesn’t mean much when medics hold the better hand to my mind. We need their services, we’re short of doctors, we can’t train or import doctors fast enough to replace existing losses, that’s a very simple supply/demand equation. JD’s and consultants should be offered inflationary rises. JD’s should have some additional incentives offered in return for guaranteed years of service. We all win in the long run.

Agree. Barclay needs to put his big boy trousers on and get to the table with a better offer to resolve the dispute. Can't go on like this.

It won't, as the number of striking JDs will likely continue to fall for a while at least and probably long enough.

A month on from this (below) why aren't the latest numbers all over the news bulletins and front pages? If it's up rather than down further, that's important.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/06/19/junior...

[turbobloke]

CoolHands said:

djc206 said:

As above not being able to plan on them turning up has some effect. It’s what French air traffic control do. Vote to strike, dates are set, regulations are applied which lead to disruption and then they mostly show up and get paid, regulations are relaxed until shift handover time, rinse and repeat.

ganzgoom said:

Doesn't really work the same way, hospitals are ensuring emergency care delivery which uptill now covered OK by Consultants. The more junior doctors that turn up to work the less effective the strike is the 'pressure' on the system eases because Consultants can relax and get help to with junior doctors who turn up.

At this point elective activity is all but forgotten about the only really worry is if emergency services cannot be covered. The government is putting the blame on cancelled operations/clinics at the BMA, so they (government) really don't care at this point, providing emergency service (A&E/inpatients) is covered.

We might see the BMA push for a 7 day strike next as the 5 day one just now gone has been managed 'OK'. A 7 day strike however is essentially 25% pay loss for those taking part for that month, if you have mortgages/child care that is a big salary cut.

The number of Consultants taking part in the strike has been far less than what the vote suggested.

Erm some seem to be overlooking all the planned procedures that have to be cancelled. As waiting lists grow, discontent with govt grows. The pressure is only going one way and that is on the govt

Fair enough that's your take on it, with participation not exactly overwhelming it looks different from here.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

If we knew where here was it would help.

You need better comprehension of everyday terminology based on that ^

Meanwhile there's still no easily found information on how the drop in strike participation is going.

BOR said:

Deep within Boris Johnson's arse.

What else can you see up there?

Like Thatcher, Boris is gone now, keep up at the back.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

turbobloke said:

You need better comprehension of everyday terminology based on that ^

Meanwhile there's still no easily found information on how the drop in strike participation is going.

There is nothing wrong with my comprehension, you are clearly against but against what is far from clear.

Nor is there anything wrong with my sarc radar, and responding in kind is fine too.

If you can't see what I'm against then either you want me to be against something or...you want me to be against something.
Or your comprehension really is shot.

At the moment in my recent posts I've mentioned that no update on strike participation has been made easily available if it exists. That suggests to me that those who know may not want others to know. Why might that be...because if the strike is starting to collapse, it's very relevant.

Dixy said:

Your own comprehension is weak as it has been explained to you several times that participation is irrelevant, the only important participation is in the next vote and how they vote.

My comprehension is fine, your bias is overwhelming yours. No explanation has been put forward, merely pro-JD pro-strike rhetoric, which you flatter beyond comprehension by describing it as explanatory.

The number of JDs participating fell 10% iirc (see link posted earlier) and a Consultant on PH has indicated that compared to the ballot, fewer Consultants participated than the vote would suggest. If consultant numbers are lower than expected and if they decline further, as per JDs, then that too may lead to the strike collapsing.

As it happens we on the outside cannot easily find out what's going on, but as we're all affected or potentially affected and may know somebody who is, that suggests to me i.e. 'from here' that the gov't isn't under any more pressure than it has been since the beginning.

Knowing that the JD and Consultant strike participation numbers are high and increasing (no sign, rather the opposite, but who knows) would indeed put increasing pressure on the government.

[turbobloke]

pghstochaj said:

It tends to be time based roles that have overtime or other forms of pay whilst duty/activity type roles do not and instead rely upon bonuses and career progression instead. It’s a fairly simple concept so I doubt the other poster genuinely doesn’t understand why some roles get overtime and some do not.

My wife’s NHS department doesn’t even provide tea and coffee and the employees have to chip in every so often and somebody has to go to Costco and buy tea, coffee, milk etc. Of course you can’t have NHS money being used for that. Most people in professional roles would find simple things like that are bizarre.

General comment: in the private sector more so, but then it's not being paid for with a constant flow of tax aka other people's money.

Specifically: I doubt taxpayers would begrudge hospital, clinic or GP surgery staff a cup of coffee in the morning and an afternoon tea. Plus a soggy biccie. A sherry in the evening may not be a good idea though

[turbobloke]

The next poll on public support or lack of it will be very interesting, as would the latest JD and Consultant strike participation rates if we're ever allowed to see them.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

Lastly a significant amount of the cases are subsequently back in the NHS for revision that causes considerably more work.
This is reorganising the deck chairs on the Titanic to say they are doing something.

Are waiting lists being reduced as a result? If so then 'they' are indeed doing something.

Evidence in terms of numbers of revision cases is needed and complexity of work, compared to the pre-strike position, otherwise it's merely anecdotal and by chance (!) convenient for your position on this.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

turbobloke said:

Are waiting lists being reduced as a result? If so then 'they' are indeed doing something.

Evidence in terms of numbers of revision cases is needed and complexity of work, compared to the pre-strike position, otherwise it's merely anecdotal and by chance (!) convenient for your position on this.

Put the same amount of money in to the NHS and achieve the same result.
You are definitely correct we should pay a firm of business consultants millions of pounds to do a 5 year study in to this and come up with useless statistics.

That's high quality straw being used up there ^ in not addressing the issues raised.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

What would you suggest.

?

I didn't make the claims that were being queried (by me) you did!

Then, while acknowledging there's no requirement to answer questions on PH, you dodged a couple. No problem, inference drawn.

[turbobloke]

Strike participation rates for each round of strikes should be published to inform both sides directly.

[turbobloke]

pghstochaj said:

turbobloke said:

Strike participation rates for each round of strikes should be published to inform both sides directly.

Why?

Because the data would be informative for both sides, obviously.

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

Telling them what?

How the strike participation rate is changing over time, obviously.

[turbobloke]

pghstochaj said:

turbobloke said:

Dixy said:

Telling them what?

How the strike participation rate is changing over time, obviously.

That’s not “why”, that’s “what”, but nevermind.

That's because the question I answered was 'Telling then what?' not 'Why?'.

Kindly RTFP.

[turbobloke]

Flooble said:

I wonder why the strikes are just intermittent - four days here, four days there. Sounds like the result is the consultants cover them and patients get bumped another four days down the waiting list (which, when you have to wait two years for an appointment, is neither here nor there)

Wouldn't it be better to just walk out and stay out?

JDs with mortgages and Porsches on long-term rental?

[turbobloke]

Dixy said:

turbobloke said:

JDs with mortgages and Porsches on long-term rental?

And you accused me of straw man arguments.

Did I? There would have been good reason.

The post I replied to asked why JDs strike for a few day here and there, rather than take indefinite strike action.

How would JDs on indefinite strike pay bills? Mortgages and car finance are bills. Shall I add food and energy? Gym membership?

No straw there. Were you referring to the possibility of a JD having a horse stabled somewhere?

[turbobloke]

pghstochaj said:

272BHP said:

Flooble said:

I still think an all-out strike would be the fastest way to end it - fundamentally if those in charge of the purse strings can tolerate the disruption, there is no incentive to negotiate.

Striking is bad enough.

Any Doctor who thinks an all out strike is a good idea should be immediately relieved of their position and invited to find another job - they clearly do not have the correct mindset to be a physician.

I think the suggestion is coming from a non-doctor, and by observation, doctors are neither advocating for this or doing this.

However, if the government continues with its position, I guess the BMA has to decide whether to become more aggressive or back off. Backing off is why we are in this mess.

We? In the context of 'backing off'? You're a JD?

[turbobloke]

Flying machine said:

I thought that this page on the BBC news website might provide some context regarding salaries: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-66360656

Oh, and Turbobloke, I had both a mortgage and a 911 when I was a Registrar - the shameful barefaced cheek of it I tell you!

Excellent!

[turbobloke]

S600BSB said:

Dixy said:

Your choice of "Porsches" was deliberately confrontational.
You clearly are only here for the fun of an argument and not to constructively contribute to the discussion, however I do detect a small axe being ground.

You just have to ignore TB - over 100k posts he is one of NP&E's 'full-timers'.

And yet neither of you can manage it you could have ignored recent posts but failed, how odd!

At ~12 posts per day your idea of full-time is as dodgy as the rest of your juvenile offerings.

[turbobloke]

S600BSB said:

turbobloke said:

S600BSB said:

Dixy said:

Your choice of "Porsches" was deliberately confrontational.
You clearly are only here for the fun of an argument and not to constructively contribute to the discussion, however I do detect a small axe being ground.

You just have to ignore TB - over 100k posts he is one of NP&E's 'full-timers'.

And yet neither of you can manage it you could have ignored recent posts but failed, how odd!

At ~12 posts per day your idea of full-time is as dodgy as the rest of your juvenile offerings.

Steady on old timer or you might need some of those JDs..

If they're on strike I might / possibly / perhaps / you never know get a Consultant.

There's a claim here from 'official figures' that the JD strike has cost £1bn and counting.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/10/junior...

[turbobloke]

S600BSB said:

turbobloke said:

If they're on strike I might / possibly / perhaps / you never know get a Consultant.

There's a claim here from 'official figures' that the JD strike has cost £1bn and counting.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2023/08/10/junior...

That is true!