Britain's decline was inevitable.

[turbobloke]

bosscerbera said Meltdown Brown said:

We're well placed you know.

[Bing o]

bosscerbera said:

cardigankid said:

People in this country have been brought up for several generations now to believe that nothing bad can be allowed to happen to them. In some of these other countries there is considerably more fear of the consequences of poverty due to a closer relationship with reality. It's just another aspect of this sense in Britain that the world owes us a living.

We are in uncharted waters, for sure, and one of the issues being played out is where does the welfare state mentality end up when the money runs out.

The money ran out years ago. The answer is borrow and spend, obviously. We're well placed you know.

Spot on Cardigan lad....

Winky Mcfknut said:

It's a global crisis, we're best placed etc...

Still dreaming of my beach bar in Vietnam....

[Traveller]

cardigankid said:

People in this country have been brought up for several generations now to believe that nothing bad can be allowed to happen to them. In some of these other countries there is considerably more fear of the consequences of poverty due to a closer relationship with reality. It's just another aspect of this sense in Britain that the world owes us a living.

We are in uncharted waters, for sure, and one of the issues being played out is where does the welfare state mentality end up when the money runs out.

An excellent discussion going on here, you sir, have assaulted the tack on its cranium, The sense of entitlement in the UK is overwhelming. That somehow the UK does not conform to the same rules as the rest of the world, somehow this island has something special unavailable for the rest of the plebeians. Well this downturn will be testing the theory, and I am afraid it will be found wanting.

Education is not seen for its true importance, children do not realise that they are in competition not with the child next to them but the child in China, child in India, child in Korea, child in Japan for jobs. Because you are from the UK does not bestow some magical means to financial nirvana, to win contracts, get a job etc. Hard work, knowledge and innovation are the key. And it is scary to see but on all accounts, the UK is not in the leading pack any more.

China despite its failing will become the worlds leading economic and military supper power, the UK will have to decide where it wants to be, near the front of the chasing pack or way way way down the order and the sacrifices it is willing to make necessary to achieve the position. I feel a rapid move down the table is the likely outcome. It is natural selection, we are competing for resources, and as Japan has found out, China will flex it muscle economically to maintain and expand its resources.

Edited by Traveller on Friday 20th March 09:15

[Traveller]

woops double post there...

Edited by Traveller on Friday 20th March 09:18

[cardigankid]

bosscerbera said:

cardigankid said:

People in this country have been brought up for several generations now to believe that nothing bad can be allowed to happen to them. In some of these other countries there is considerably more fear of the consequences of poverty due to a closer relationship with reality. It's just another aspect of this sense in Britain that the world owes us a living.

We are in uncharted waters, for sure, and one of the issues being played out is where does the welfare state mentality end up when the money runs out.

The money ran out years ago. The answer is borrow and spend, obviously. We're well placed you know.

Absolutely, and when you can't borrow you sell the family silver, and then you hock the house and rent it back, then you buy everything on the never never, then you turn to crime (fraud in this case), then you start defaulting on your loans. I think that we are well down that route now.

[minerva]

Very interesting posts, especially from the OP, so thank you for putting time and effort in. I really appreciate it and is food fro thought...

However, how are you judging Britain's decline? From where I am sitting (pretty), it all looks good. I am a state paid worker. I have a well paid job and have (compared to generations past and to other nations) a fabulous lifestyle. I want for nearly nothing (except that Aston, but then I could buy one if I really wanted).

This country is the 4th (?) richest nation on earth. We don't realise how good we have it. We don't half whine a lot though!

[turbobloke]

minerva said:

This country is the 4th (?) richest nation on earth.

Depends on your yardstick and your timescale I guess:

http://internationaltrade.suite101.com/article.cfm...

http://internationaltrade.suite101.com/article.cfm...

Ten Richest Countries (based on 2004 GNP per capita in US$)

Luxembourg ... $56,380
Norway ... $51,810
Switzerland ... $49,600
United States ... $41,440
Denmark ... $40,750
Iceland ... $37,920
Japan ... $37,050
Sweden ... $35,840
Ireland ... $34,310
United Kingdom ... $33,630

Since then, have we shot up the league table, or down it?

[Bing o]

minerva said:

Very interesting posts, especially from the OP, so thank you for putting time and effort in. I really appreciate it and is food fro thought...

However, how are you judging Britain's decline? From where I am sitting (pretty), it all looks good. I am a state paid worker. I have a well paid job and have (compared to generations past and to other nations) a fabulous lifestyle. I want for nearly nothing (except that Aston, but then I could buy one if I really wanted).

This country is the 4th (?) richest nation on earth. We don't realise how good we have it. We don't half whine a lot though!

And that is the biggest problem...

Do you create wealth? Do you add value? Or are you just another NuLabia drone propped up by real people's taxes?

[chris watton]

Bing o said:

minerva said:

Very interesting posts, especially from the OP, so thank you for putting time and effort in. I really appreciate it and is food fro thought...

However, how are you judging Britain's decline? From where I am sitting (pretty), it all looks good. I am a state paid worker. I have a well paid job and have (compared to generations past and to other nations) a fabulous lifestyle. I want for nearly nothing (except that Aston, but then I could buy one if I really wanted).

This country is the 4th (?) richest nation on earth. We don't realise how good we have it. We don't half whine a lot though!

And that is the biggest problem...

Do you create wealth? Do you add value? Or are you just another NuLabia drone propped up by real people's taxes?

And that's one of the problems, too many non wealth creating jobs - this is why Italy is in a terrible state too, 3 million public sector workers, who, from what I've experienced, don't do a lot, and when they are asked to do something, they go on strike!

[minerva]

Ah! I see your point. I am part of the problem!
Well, a doctor. In the Army, so I guess that I do not make anything. However, I do try and ensure at least some of the work force are able to work to a better standard than if I wasn't here.

Edited by minerva on Friday 20th March 09:48

[Bing o]

minerva said:

Ah! I see your point. I am part of the problem!
Well, a doctor. In the Army, so I guess that I do not make anything. However, I do try and ensure at least some of the work force are able to work to a better standard than if I wasn't here.

Edited by minerva on Friday 20th March 09:48

Apologies, I would say that your value add is obvious, if not rare, in the public sector

[bosscerbera]

turbobloke said:

Ten Richest Countries (based on 2004 GNP per capita in US$)

Luxembourg ... $56,380
Norway ... $51,810
Switzerland ... $49,600
United States ... $41,440
Denmark ... $40,750
Iceland ... $37,920
Japan ... $37,050
Sweden ... $35,840
Ireland ... $34,310
United Kingdom ... $33,630

Since then, have we shot up the league table, or down it?

1 Luxembourg 80,800
2 Qatar 75,900
3 Bermuda 69,900
4 Jersey 57,000
5 Norway 55,600
6 Kuwait 55,300
7 United Arab Emirates 55,200
8 Singapore 48,900
9 United States 46,000
10 Ireland 45,600
11 Guernsey 44,600
12 Equatorial Guinea 44,100
13 Cayman Islands 43,800
14 Hong Kong 42,000
15 Switzerland 39,800
16 Iceland 39,400
17 Austria 39,000
18 Andorra 38,800
19 Netherlands 38,600
20 British Virgin Islands 38,500
21 Canada 38,200
22 Gibraltar 38,200
23 Australia 37,500
24 Denmark 37,400
25 Sweden 36,900
26 Belgium 36,500
27 Finland 35,500
28 United Kingdom 35,300

At 1/1/2008. That's before sterling collapsed too.

[chris watton]

bosscerbera said:

turbobloke said:

Ten Richest Countries (based on 2004 GNP per capita in US$)

Luxembourg ... $56,380
Norway ... $51,810
Switzerland ... $49,600
United States ... $41,440
Denmark ... $40,750
Iceland ... $37,920
Japan ... $37,050
Sweden ... $35,840
Ireland ... $34,310
United Kingdom ... $33,630

Since then, have we shot up the league table, or down it?

1 Luxembourg 80,800
2 Qatar 75,900
3 Bermuda 69,900
4 Jersey 57,000
5 Norway 55,600
6 Kuwait 55,300
7 United Arab Emirates 55,200
8 Singapore 48,900
9 United States 46,000
10 Ireland 45,600
11 Guernsey 44,600
12 Equatorial Guinea 44,100
13 Cayman Islands 43,800
14 Hong Kong 42,000
15 Switzerland 39,800
16 Iceland 39,400
17 Austria 39,000
18 Andorra 38,800
19 Netherlands 38,600
20 British Virgin Islands 38,500
21 Canada 38,200
22 Gibraltar 38,200
23 Australia 37,500
24 Denmark 37,400
25 Sweden 36,900
26 Belgium 36,500
27 Finland 35,500
28 United Kingdom 35,300

At 1/1/2008. That's before sterling collapsed too.

Now I see why Brown has started to spite the 'tax haven' countries.

[Bing o]

bosscerbera said:

27 Finland 35,500
28 United Kingdom 35,300

At 1/1/2008. That's before sterling collapsed too.

On the plus side, we will be above Finland.

briefly

[bosscerbera]

Also at 1/1/2008:

GDP (billion $)
1 United States 13,860
2 China 7,043
3 Japan 4,417
4 India 2,965
5 Germany 2,833
6 United Kingdom 2,147
7 Russia 2,076
8 France 2,067
9 Brazil 1,838
10 Italy 1,800

Public debt as % of GDP (see how useful 'privatising' is)
1 Japan 194.4
2 Zimbabwe 189.9
3 Lebanon 188
4 Seychelles 143.3
5 Jamaica 134.3
6 Italy 105.6
7 Egypt 105.1
8 Singapore 101.2
9 Sudan 96.9
10 Belgium 86.1
11 Sri Lanka 85.9
12 Israel 82.7
13 Greece 81.7
14 Bhutan 81.4
15 Cote d'Ivoire 81
16 Hungary 70.2
17 Jordan 67.2
18 Uruguay 67
19 France 66.6
20 Portugal 65.8
21 Germany 65.3
22 Canada 64
23 Morocco 63.6
24 Cyprus 61.5
25 Austria 61
26 Mauritius 59.9
27 Philippines 59.5
28 Argentina 59
29 India 58.8
30 Turkey 58.2
31 Nicaragua 56.2
32 Tunisia 54.5
33 Ethiopia 54.5
34 Colombia 53.9
35 pakistan 53.8
36 Albania 53.7
37 Panama 53.6
38 Kenya 50.8
39 Switzerland 50.2
40 Ghana 48.4
41 Netherlands 47.7
42 Costa Rica 47.4
43 Aruba 46.3
44 Bolivia 46.2
45 Croatia 45.6
46 Poland 44.5
47 Brazil 43.9
48 Papua New Guinea 43.7
49 Vietnam 43.3
50 United Kingdom 43.3

External debt (billion $) ( the total public and private debt owed to nonresidents repayable in foreign currency, goods, or services.)
1 United States 12,250
2 United Kingdom 10,450
3 Germany 4,489
4 France 4,396
5 Italy 2,345
6 Netherlands 2,277
7 Spain 2,047
8 Ireland 1,841
9 Japan 1,492
10 Switzerland 1,340

[minerva]

Bing o said:

Apologies, I would say that your value add is obvious, if not rare, in the public sector

None needed. This is a great thread. Reading it in between patients!

[bosscerbera]

I'll just pick out the G20's debt - the G20 accounts for 85% of the world's economy. It's fairly safe to assume they don't owe much to the other 15% so most debt is between G20 nations. Overall international ranking is the number on the left.

(Billion $, 1/1/08)
1 United States 12,250
2 United Kingdom 10,450
3 Germany 4,489
4 France 4,396
5 Italy 2,345
9 Japan 1,492
12 Canada 758.6
13 Australia 757.9
20 Russia 384.8
22 China 363
23 Korea, South 342.7
25 Brazil 230.3
26 Turkey 226.4
28 Mexico 182
29 India 165.4
31 Indonesia 137.2
32 Argentina 118
38 South Africa 64.8
44 Saudi Arabia 52.89

The 20th member of the G20 is the EU. Most 'gaps' from the Top 20 debtors are EU countries.

[JagLover]

bosscerbera said:

turbobloke said:

Ten Richest Countries (based on 2004 GNP per capita in US$)

Luxembourg ... $56,380
Norway ... $51,810
Switzerland ... $49,600
United States ... $41,440
Denmark ... $40,750
Iceland ... $37,920
Japan ... $37,050
Sweden ... $35,840
Ireland ... $34,310
United Kingdom ... $33,630

Since then, have we shot up the league table, or down it?

1 Luxembourg 80,800
2 Qatar 75,900
3 Bermuda 69,900
4 Jersey 57,000
5 Norway 55,600
6 Kuwait 55,300
7 United Arab Emirates 55,200
8 Singapore 48,900
9 United States 46,000
10 Ireland 45,600
11 Guernsey 44,600
12 Equatorial Guinea 44,100
13 Cayman Islands 43,800
14 Hong Kong 42,000
15 Switzerland 39,800
16 Iceland 39,400
17 Austria 39,000
18 Andorra 38,800
19 Netherlands 38,600
20 British Virgin Islands 38,500
21 Canada 38,200
22 Gibraltar 38,200
23 Australia 37,500
24 Denmark 37,400
25 Sweden 36,900
26 Belgium 36,500
27 Finland 35,500
28 United Kingdom 35,300

At 1/1/2008. That's before sterling collapsed too.

If you take out the tax havens and petro states then the UK's position is not as bad.

[AJS-]

JagLover said:

If you take out the tax havens and petro states then the UK's position is not as bad.

Why would you take out "tax havens"? Every time we have attracted a bit of inward investment through having lower taxes and social security contributions than other EU countries we are being a tax haven ourselves.

Just because Switzerland, Andorra and Luxembourg are better at this it does not invalidate their wealth, or make our high taxes a good idea, or excuse our underpoerformance.

[bosscerbera]

Two nations: those who work, those who won't
"Blaming immigrants for our unemployment levels misses the point: the problem is people who are bone idle"

"The Government's response has been to blame the immigrants who helped Britain for so long. Only this week Phil Woolas, the Immigration Minister, brought up Sangatte again. Yesterday, as the unemployment figures were released, Hazel Blears, the Secretary of State for Communities, suddenly announced a new migrant tax of £50 on overseas workers coming from outside the EU to pay for their public services."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnist...