Private schools, times a changing?

[ClaphamGT3]

Both of ours are in the independent sector. London day pre-prep and prep, now weekly/flexi boarding just outside Brighton. Current thinking is that they'll come back to London for 6th form. Eldest certainly wants to do that. Youngest less certain.

One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.

I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.

[okgo]

ClaphamGT3 said:

Both of ours are in the independent sector. London day pre-prep and prep, now weekly/flexi boarding just outside Brighton. Current thinking is that they'll come back to London for 6th form. Eldest certainly wants to do that. Youngest less certain.

One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.

I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.

Just clocked the other thread. Hadn’t seen that - best of luck with that, can’t be easy for anyone concerned.

[FamousPheasant]

Sheepshanks said:

FamousPheasant said:

That's an interesting point and lines up with what I'm seeing.

I was privately educated in Edinburgh 20 years ago and we all came from fairly normal middle class families. Fast forward, my school mates and I are all at the point of having kids and, at the moment from discussion, none are attending,or planning private school.

Even with decent jobs - engineers, surveyors, accountants, doctors - I don't know one who is sending their kids private. House prices and relative wage stagnation compared to our parents seems to be the main reason from what I can see.

Grandparents, and I say this as one myself, so am reasonably familiar with it, are chipping in. Or paying completely. And that happened with our friends for the generation before too. And presumably has always happened.

I would also say that, having mixed a bit with parents / grandparents at the school our granddaughter went to that, sure, there's a range of people, but quite a lot of them appear to be just plain wealthy.

Agreed, as you say that was the case 20 years ago too. My parent were poor, but I was fortunate that grandparents could pay the fees. The actual private school can make a massive difference. My private school was more modest than some (it wasn't Fettes) and there were a few stupidly wealthy families, but they were the minority from my experience.

[ChocolateFrog]

Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.

It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.

[ClaphamGT3]

okgo said:

ClaphamGT3 said:

Both of ours are in the independent sector. London day pre-prep and prep, now weekly/flexi boarding just outside Brighton. Current thinking is that they'll come back to London for 6th form. Eldest certainly wants to do that. Youngest less certain.

One of the things we have been struck by since our eldest has developed some significant mental health issues recently (see separate thread on that topic) is the outstanding quality and quantity of pastoral care and collaboration with our daughter's clinical team that the school has been able to provide.

I'd hope that no one else would have to find out the quality of this but we have been blown away by how good it has been. As a governor of two state schools, this is something they just would t be able to provide.

Just clocked the other thread. Hadn’t seen that - best of luck with that, can’t be easy for anyone concerned.

Thanks - much appreciated. Without boring people with detail, things got worse but now seem to be improving, albeit with the odd backward step. It looks like quite a long road. We are very glad we have the support that we have.

[ettore]

ChocolateFrog said:

Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.

It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.

I did - truly mediocre in every meaningful way and took me years longer than necessary to engage properly with the real world.

Both offspring have been sent private, latterly expensively so. There were a few moments earlier on where we had doubt (and had to scrape the fees) but latterly it’s all borne fruit. It’s not for every child though and I believe you need to pick the school that’s right for the child (state and/or private).

They are different these days, both more elitist but also offering a much more rounded pastoral education that hopefully balance each other out somewhat. Boarding fees for the nobby schools are broadly £50k each once extras are included, so nigh on £200k gross for 2. That’s why there are far fewer local solicitor/publican/major’s offspring than there were, the arms race around facilities means they’re more akin to a country club now.

[numtumfutunch]

ChocolateFrog said:

Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.

It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.

I went to one

My parents/grandparents couldnt afford to send me anywhere else

Im not alone in that respect

[beagrizzly]

ChocolateFrog said:

Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.

It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.

This is a really good point.

The three state schools closest to us are all doing very well, which does skew things a bit.

I imagine if they were all st, we'd either move or make the sacrifices required to afford fees.

I should be, and am, grateful.

[Shaoxter]

numtumfutunch said:

ChocolateFrog said:

Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.

It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.

I went to one

My parents/grandparents couldnt afford to send me anywhere else

Im not alone in that respect

In inner London? It's a different kettle of fish compared to most of the rest of the country.

[Jonathan27]

ChocolateFrog said:

Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.

It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.

I attended a very rough state school in northern England in the 80's. All three of my kids now go to private school, and the difference is night and day. A very good state school and an average private school may be similar, but an average state school and a decent private school are worlds apart.

[AstonZagato]

A couple of considerations (for the record, I was privately educated, as were my three children):

1. If your child is Oxbridge material, the entry requirements are very heavily stacked against them. A lot of parents will put their kids in state six form colleges so that they tick the "state school entry" box. No other university is really called out on state vs private entry, so the pressure is less elsewhere. US Ivy League colleges have no qualms - but they are expensive unless you can win a sporting scholarship (a lot of the Eton/St Pauls/Radley first VIII crews seemingly now go to US colleges).
2. When you consider the cost, would you be better off just, say, buying a property for you child? 12 years of £25k+ pays a chunky mortgage, particularly if you rent it out until they graduate university. They might not have quite the education but they go have a mortgage free property to give them security.

[okgo]

AstonZagato said:

A couple of considerations (for the record, I was privately educated, as were my three children):

1. If your child is Oxbridge material, the entry requirements are very heavily stacked against them. A lot of parents will put their kids in state six form colleges so that they tick the "state school entry" box. No other university is really called out on state vs private entry, so the pressure is less elsewhere. US Ivy League colleges have no qualms - but they are expensive unless you can win a sporting scholarship (a lot of the Eton/St Pauls/Radley first VIII crews seemingly now go to US colleges).
2. When you consider the cost, would you be better off just, say, buying a property for you child? 12 years of £25k+ pays a chunky mortgage, particularly if you rent it out until they graduate university. They might not have quite the education but they go have a mortgage free property to give them security.

Fair points re entry to such universities. It was why I started the thread of course, but now having seen the gulf I’d still rather just pay for the time being, if we move house at a later date and the potential is there I suppose some form of
system gaming can be conducted at a later point.

The house thing is a separate debate IMO, probably lucky to be able to do both but not sure I agree with gifting of a property in totality, it was what kept me motivated to some extent in my early 20’s. But each to their own on that front.

[fridaypassion]

Pertinent thread

We have a 13 year old that's in State school ironically this state School when I was at high school was the golden one in our district and people regularly used to move into catchment even back in the early 90s to get into this school. It would appear its gone a bit downhill but our DD just hasn't settled she is in year 8 and just struggling a bit with kids being a bit mean not what I would call bullying but its is a concern. 18 months into starting she's very unhappy.

Near us we have a small independent school which we are going to have a look at next week its sort of a halfway house inbetween a very expensive private school in town and the local comp. The fees are pretty modest at about £8000 pa. I drive past it to get to work and the carpark is not flash at all I suspect its probably a lot of parents like us just working class but wanting that bit more.

I'm struggling with it as generally I just don't believe in the concept of private schooling (plus the fact they get charity status but that's another matter) At the age of 43 I look around at my peers and I have never been convinced of the absolute benefit. I know extremely wealthy people that are self made and went to my school (comp) and likewise I know people that were privately educated and haven't really done much with theirselves.

Ultimately you of course would do anything for your kids so the decision lies with the sprog! A lot of talk on this thread is talking £25k PA which I guess is London rates our local "posh" one which I believe is quite highly regarded is £15000PA

The other problem we have which is a big complicating factor for us is we also have younger twins so realistically as the eldest comes out we would have double trouble going in. Has anyone got experience of having one private and the other sibling not? Would seem grodssly unfair to me but as with us there are genuine reasons for considering it!

Edited by fridaypassion on Thursday 9th March 09:31

[Puzzles]

What would be a better head start in life, private school or starting out with £300k+ in your pocket?

Of course if you’re wealthy enough why not, but there are an awful lot of parents who send their children private who make big sacrifices to do so.

[Puzzles]

ChocolateFrog said:

Most of you have clearly never been anywhere near an average or below state school.

It just wouldn't be a debate if you could remotely afford it.

You have a good point. Like if you have a reasonable salary you’ll probably live in a decent area, with people similar to you.

There I lived before the state schools were fine, they were mainly made up of children from doctors, lawyers, accountants, people in senior positions as they are the only ones who can afford the local house prices.

So you get a similar intake as an independent school in a different area.

[GT3Manthey]

Puzzles said:

What would be a better head start in life, private school or starting out with £300k+ in your pocket?

Of course if you’re wealthy enough why not, but there are an awful lot of parents who send their children private who make big sacrifices to do so.

Or grandparents fund it after a downsize.

Our youngest would have coped just as well at the local comp however our Son needed more one to one so after sending him we couldn’t refuse her.

I will say it’s the best thing we could have done for our Son but I appreciate there are many kids that might not benefit as much.

I’ve just a few more months left of fees and whilst I’m pleased we did it I’m so happy to be nearing the end !

[Tom8]

Strange how parents, schools and less so children are conditioned to think of only results, factories measured on grades.

I went to minor public school and prep school. Parents really struggled to pay for it but managed. We got scholarships as we got older so reduced the fee burden which helped.

I now send my daughter to a very pricey prep school and would not do anything other unless we went bankrupt. For me schooling has little to do with grades, that is pretty much bottom of my priorities. It is about educating, not teaching. It is about activities and social engagement, confidence, public speaking and the like. At our daughter's school their ethos is Latin and the outdoors. At my prep school the Head Master said they take pride in sending the children home dirty with cut knees which sold it completely to my mum.

Then there are the social things. Like it or not, a state school will have the disruptive pupils from difficult homes, rough kids and parents too. Although they will all drive brand new Range Rovers, but that is another topic.

Finally there is the all round care. My daughter is at school for 0815 and the day ends at five. If she was at a comp, leaving at 1430 would be a real pain and she would spend far less time with her friends.

Horses for courses, but I wouldn't change it. If/when labour get into power I'd be amazed if they pursued private schools agenda but they are mad so who knows. If they added VAT it would be a real struggle but I would find a way.

Edited by Tom8 on Thursday 9th March 10:28

[Leithen]

The quality of state education is so variable, it is so much down to what is available locally. For us that means private for our three. They all have varying levels of dyslexia and are sport mad. This alone has cemented our decision.

The charity status thing is something of a red herring IMO. Very few independent schools are profit orientated. If charitable status was removed, they would be able to reclaim VAT which they can't at the moment. VAT on school fees would hurt parents, but I suspect fees would then stagnate for a while. Up here in Scotland removal of charitable status would be controversial as all schools have passed charity tests by the regulator who has come out against removal. Education is also classed as vat exempt at the moment, so that would have to change, and any argument that it ought to be treated as a consumption tax is bonkers.

In a perfect world all parents would have some kind of tax credit that would follow the child wherever they went. The left-wing, ban private schools mantra is laughable given the lack of state capacity, and the inevitable explosion in private tuition if they ever tried to pull it off.

[ClaphamGT3]

Tom8 said:

Horses for courses, but I wouldn't change it. If/when labour get into power I'd be amazed if they pursued private schools agenda but they are mad so who knows. If they added VAT it would be a real struggle but I would find a way.

Edited by Tom8 on Thursday 9th March 10:28

They absolutely will sadly. Dismantling the independent schools sector is an inviolate article of faith for Reeves and Phillipson. It's bad politics, its bad economics but they are 100% committed to it

[AyBee]

okgo said:

@ sheepshanks But all you end up with is then state schools that are literally only that by name and the houses cost £400k more because they’re in catchment.

London centric of course but a good example is The Hyde Farm estate in Balham, it’s about 10-15 roads with a decent primary and secondary, the catchment is tiny and houses are all IMO quite overpriced because they’re there - everyone that lives there is a well paid professional and basically the school is free but you’re paying overs for the house so much for much.

I hear your points and I agree, we probably will only have one which makes life easier - but is worth noting that of the people we know sending kids private both in London and other places, the majority have wealth in older generations that is paying for it.

I guess the difference is that the house is unlikely to lose money, so it's just availability and the stamp duty.

Anyone done state primary followed by private secondary? My son's currently at a nursery which is attached to a private primary but current thinking is he'll go to the local state primary (closer and "oustanding") and we'll re-evaluate when he gets to secondary age. I suspect most of the private schools around me are filled with the kids of footballers anyway so perhaps not the kids I'd want him mixing with