Russia Invades Ukraine. Volume 5
Discussion
Firstly does Trump keep his promises?
Secondly would Putin accept those terms? I'm not convinced.
Thirdly, would lack of American support lead to a Ukrainian surrender? US support is under 50% of total support and without the US Europe would likely ramp up.
Finally, is Trump really gonna win? He's poison to floating voters. He only won last time becaise it looked like he was gonna lose and the protest votes went to him.
Secondly would Putin accept those terms? I'm not convinced.
Thirdly, would lack of American support lead to a Ukrainian surrender? US support is under 50% of total support and without the US Europe would likely ramp up.
Finally, is Trump really gonna win? He's poison to floating voters. He only won last time becaise it looked like he was gonna lose and the protest votes went to him.
BikeBikeBIke said:
Firstly does Trump keep his promises?
Secondly would Putin accept those terms? I'm not convinced.
Thirdly, would lack of American support lead to a Ukrainian surrender? US support is under 50% of total support and without the US Europe would likely ramp up.
Finally, is Trump really gonna win? He's poison to floating voters. He only won last time becaise it looked like he was gonna lose and the protest votes went to him.
He does not have to win the other bloke has to loose . There is only two in the race , one has now definitely lost and clearly needs care . It hands it to Trump. Trump gets it by default not on merit.Secondly would Putin accept those terms? I'm not convinced.
Thirdly, would lack of American support lead to a Ukrainian surrender? US support is under 50% of total support and without the US Europe would likely ramp up.
Finally, is Trump really gonna win? He's poison to floating voters. He only won last time becaise it looked like he was gonna lose and the protest votes went to him.
cliffords said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Firstly does Trump keep his promises?
Secondly would Putin accept those terms? I'm not convinced.
Thirdly, would lack of American support lead to a Ukrainian surrender? US support is under 50% of total support and without the US Europe would likely ramp up.
Finally, is Trump really gonna win? He's poison to floating voters. He only won last time becaise it looked like he was gonna lose and the protest votes went to him.
He does not have to win the other bloke has to loose . There is only two in the race , one has now definitely lost and clearly needs care . It hands it to Trump. Trump gets it by default not on merit.Secondly would Putin accept those terms? I'm not convinced.
Thirdly, would lack of American support lead to a Ukrainian surrender? US support is under 50% of total support and without the US Europe would likely ramp up.
Finally, is Trump really gonna win? He's poison to floating voters. He only won last time becaise it looked like he was gonna lose and the protest votes went to him.
tshow in that.cliffords said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
Firstly does Trump keep his promises?
Secondly would Putin accept those terms? I'm not convinced.
Thirdly, would lack of American support lead to a Ukrainian surrender? US support is under 50% of total support and without the US Europe would likely ramp up.
Finally, is Trump really gonna win? He's poison to floating voters. He only won last time becaise it looked like he was gonna lose and the protest votes went to him.
He does not have to win the other bloke has to loose . There is only two in the race , one has now definitely lost and clearly needs care . It hands it to Trump. Trump gets it by default not on merit.Secondly would Putin accept those terms? I'm not convinced.
Thirdly, would lack of American support lead to a Ukrainian surrender? US support is under 50% of total support and without the US Europe would likely ramp up.
Finally, is Trump really gonna win? He's poison to floating voters. He only won last time becaise it looked like he was gonna lose and the protest votes went to him.
NoddyonNitrous said:
Bright Halo said:
borcy said:
Very cleverWould be good if it could then retreat to a safe distance and detonate it.
I think there is a lot in what a previous poster said (apologies for paraphrasing)...
Trump will tell Zelynskyy that he will get no more aid unless he negotiates.
Putin will be told that Ukraine will get everything it needs if he doesn't negotiate.
Classic "Art of the Deal" stuff.
Trump will declare that he has ended the war, and that he is the saviour of mankind.
Trump will tell Zelynskyy that he will get no more aid unless he negotiates.
Putin will be told that Ukraine will get everything it needs if he doesn't negotiate.
Classic "Art of the Deal" stuff.
Trump will declare that he has ended the war, and that he is the saviour of mankind.
pingu393 said:
I think there is a lot in what a previous poster said (apologies for paraphrasing)...
Trump will tell Zelynskyy that he will get no more aid unless he negotiates.
Putin will be told that Ukraine will get everything it needs if he doesn't negotiate.
Classic "Art of the Deal" stuff.
Trump will declare that he has ended the war, and that he is the saviour of mankind.
That is exactly what I thought he would threaten. Totally fits his modus operandi.Trump will tell Zelynskyy that he will get no more aid unless he negotiates.
Putin will be told that Ukraine will get everything it needs if he doesn't negotiate.
Classic "Art of the Deal" stuff.
Trump will declare that he has ended the war, and that he is the saviour of mankind.
And now we are hearing this from (close) to the horse's mouth....
“We tell the Ukrainians: ‘You’ve got to come to the table, and if you don’t come to the table, support from the United States will dry up,’”
“And you tell Putin: ‘He’s got to come to the table and if you don’t come to the table, then we’ll give Ukrainians everything they need to kill you in the field.’”
We can now expect Biden to try and get a similar settlement before the election, to save giving Trump an open goal, should he win.
https://archive.ph/cp8SY
In some respects, some could argue this is actually America behaving as the responsible adult, intervening between squabbling children, but it has so much more to it.
I do think, moving forward, this is the wake up call the EU and certain NATO members required, to refocus their defence policies and budgets (or lack of) to meet the threat.
I do think, moving forward, this is the wake up call the EU and certain NATO members required, to refocus their defence policies and budgets (or lack of) to meet the threat.
There is no deal that would be acceptable to Ukraine other than a 'deal' forced on them.
A burglar comes into your house, smashes most of it up, steals some of yoyr possessions, kills a couple of family members then says he will leave the house but you must legally sign over your garden to him.
And this is a deal?
A burglar comes into your house, smashes most of it up, steals some of yoyr possessions, kills a couple of family members then says he will leave the house but you must legally sign over your garden to him.
And this is a deal?
If they put a convicted felon into the white house, why would anyone be surprised that he wants to do a deal with the devil? Its purely driven by self interest.
I think in the way that putin drove Finland and Sweden into NATO, a trump US would drive a Europe to be less dependant on the US for explodey bits and bobs.
I think in the way that putin drove Finland and Sweden into NATO, a trump US would drive a Europe to be less dependant on the US for explodey bits and bobs.
paulw123 said:
There is no deal that would be acceptable to Ukraine other than a 'deal' forced on them.
A burglar comes into your house, smashes most of it up, steals some of yoyr possessions, kills a couple of family members then says he will leave the house but you must legally sign over your garden to him.
And this is a deal?
That analogy is only valid is you assume this all started in Feb 2022. Unfortunately, there is a lot of preceding history, which is why things like the Minsk agreements exist. That doesn't make Putin right, but each side does have their own interests.A burglar comes into your house, smashes most of it up, steals some of yoyr possessions, kills a couple of family members then says he will leave the house but you must legally sign over your garden to him.
And this is a deal?
EddieSteadyGo said:
That is exactly what I thought he would threaten. Totally fits his modus operandi.
And now we are hearing this from (close) to the horse's mouth....
“We tell the Ukrainians: ‘You’ve got to come to the table, and if you don’t come to the table, support from the United States will dry up,’”
“And you tell Putin: ‘He’s got to come to the table and if you don’t come to the table, then we’ll give Ukrainians everything they need to kill you in the field.’”
We can now expect Biden to try and get a similar settlement before the election, to save giving Trump an open goal, should he win.
https://archive.ph/cp8SY
The problem is "coming to the table" isn't enough. There has to be a potential compromise and there baltently isn't. Putin needs X or (in his mind) his people are going to overthrow and kill him, Ukraine need Y (a viable country) which is exactly what Putin can't except. If there was a tolerable way out for either side the war would be long over. People don't maintain attritional wars for fun.And now we are hearing this from (close) to the horse's mouth....
“We tell the Ukrainians: ‘You’ve got to come to the table, and if you don’t come to the table, support from the United States will dry up,’”
“And you tell Putin: ‘He’s got to come to the table and if you don’t come to the table, then we’ll give Ukrainians everything they need to kill you in the field.’”
We can now expect Biden to try and get a similar settlement before the election, to save giving Trump an open goal, should he win.
https://archive.ph/cp8SY
If America withdraw support, Ukriane will keep fighting with European support. Which will suck, but it's what they'll do. There will be a frozen conflict, at some point.
Edited by BikeBikeBIke on Friday 28th June 11:37
paulw123 said:
There is no deal that would be acceptable to Ukraine other than a 'deal' forced on them.
A burglar comes into your house, smashes most of it up, steals some of yoyr possessions, kills a couple of family members then says he will leave the house but you must legally sign over your garden to him.
And this is a deal?
Good analogy...A burglar comes into your house, smashes most of it up, steals some of yoyr possessions, kills a couple of family members then says he will leave the house but you must legally sign over your garden to him.
And this is a deal?
guyvert1 said:
paulw123 said:
There is no deal that would be acceptable to Ukraine other than a 'deal' forced on them.
A burglar comes into your house, smashes most of it up, steals some of yoyr possessions, kills a couple of family members then says he will leave the house but you must legally sign over your garden to him.
And this is a deal?
Good analogy...A burglar comes into your house, smashes most of it up, steals some of yoyr possessions, kills a couple of family members then says he will leave the house but you must legally sign over your garden to him.
And this is a deal?
And the current set of burglars have already disclosed plans to do some more burglaries.
Danegeld is counter productive.
Digga said:
In some respects, some could argue this is actually America behaving as the responsible adult, intervening between squabbling children, but it has so much more to it.
I do think, moving forward, this is the wake up call the EU and certain NATO members required, to refocus their defence policies and budgets (or lack of) to meet the threat.
This.I do think, moving forward, this is the wake up call the EU and certain NATO members required, to refocus their defence policies and budgets (or lack of) to meet the threat.
We can't rely on America forever,
France and the UK have around 515 Nuclear weapons, 50 would reduce any aggressor to dust.
Let's pray they are never needed.
sisu said:
heisthegaffer said:
BikeBikeBIke said:
what are the implications of this, Russia have less options to trade/transact money? Ceasing a state bank is nothing new, Germany WW2, Iraq in the gulf war. What is different is they are doing it before the war is over.
The last thing China needs now is to have its ability to trade internationally compromised as Russia in financial terms is the size of Denmark or Florida.
The North Korean trade deal could unleash South Korea into the European theatre and Ukraine. This would be a very, very bad thing for Russia as unlike say asking Britain to build precision artillery it could take 5 years to get stuff as there are no factories, staff in Britain building this at scale. Korea has never stopped, they always assumed Uncle Sam would do what they have done to Ukraine.
So there is already a Hyundai Steel factory building shells for everyone in the world as you can just pay the Koreans to ship you shells instead of making it your own.
https://apnews.com/article/china-north-korea-russi...
Oliver Hardy said:
The deal with North Korea is likely to upset the Chines too.
https://apnews.com/article/china-north-korea-russi...
There are two things China needs to avoid at any cost: jeopardize its economical links with South Korea and attract more US presence in the area.https://apnews.com/article/china-north-korea-russi...
The "deal" between NK and Russia could potentially do both if China does not take a firm stand.
AlexIT said:
Oliver Hardy said:
The deal with North Korea is likely to upset the Chines too.
https://apnews.com/article/china-north-korea-russi...
There are two things China needs to avoid at any cost: jeopardize its economical links with South Korea and attract more US presence in the area.https://apnews.com/article/china-north-korea-russi...
The "deal" between NK and Russia could potentially do both if China does not take a firm stand.
IMHO it suits China as they also don’t want Putin losing his job so it provides some military backing for him which they won’t do themselves
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