Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)
Discussion
911hope said:
The reality is that the brexiteers and the Brexit they brought about INCREASED immigration in a big way. That type of influence should be a disappointment to them.
Why do they ignore this Major negative impact, when assessing the impact of their decision.
How?Why do they ignore this Major negative impact, when assessing the impact of their decision.
All Brexit did was make the immigration system a level playing field rather than a two tier system where the migrants from the EU were not counted or known about.
Now it doesn't matter where you come from, you have an equal opportunity whether you are from Europe or the ROW.
Being in or out of the EU hasn't been the driver for higher immigration, we now count everyone and government policy has been to allow this many people to come live in the UK.
911hope said:
crankedup5 said:
Immigration, been a hot topic for years and is still one of. the major topics within the three main political parties.It is high on each of their manifesto to deal with the issue. Brexiteeers still enjoying such influence or is it. an issue amongst a broader group.
The reality is that the brexiteers and the Brexit they brought about INCREASED immigration in a big way. That type of influence should be a disappointment to them. Why do they ignore this Major negative impact, when assessing the impact of their decision.
It’s one of the most frustrating aspects of this thread and perhaps PH threads in general is the almost idiotic circuitous arguments.
There was a government policy decided by a nitwit who for reasons that remain entirely unclear thought that lowering bars to immigration for say relatives of students, would be an excellent idea.
That, is a decision not by ‘brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’ but by an idiotic premier whose party is just about to be pummelled into the dirt for that decision.
That also incidentally is a million miles away from being a member of a union which insists on freedom of movement without *any* control.
One is a stupid policy with electoral repercussions the tories are just about to reap, the other a supranational policy that no national government has control over.
So strangely your point just underlines the importance of Brexit.
It also underlines the dishonest Alistair Campbellesque posturing that so much of this debate features. ‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’. Manure.
Crap decisions made by crap governments now face the logical democratic output. Ie election defeat.. If that’s an output of Brexit it is actually functioning very much as designed as opposed to continuing a scenario within the EU where crap decisions never get challenged because well it’s above the national government’s pay grade to control.
blueg33 said:
Ashfordian said:
Mortarboard said:
Hate to break it to you silly, but major businesses don't hang around to "see how it all works out"
HTH
M.
And they haven't left, despite what the Project Fear disciples preached would happen,,,HTH
M.
LimmerickLad said:
blueg33 said:
Ashfordian said:
Mortarboard said:
Hate to break it to you silly, but major businesses don't hang around to "see how it all works out"
HTH
M.
And they haven't left, despite what the Project Fear disciples preached would happen,,,HTH
M.
LimmerickLad said:
blueg33 said:
Ashfordian said:
Mortarboard said:
Hate to break it to you silly, but major businesses don't hang around to "see how it all works out"
HTH
M.
And they haven't left, despite what the Project Fear disciples preached would happen,,,HTH
M.
No business or businesses had a right to hold the electorate to ransom, beyond which, the EU referendum was about far more than trade and trade adjustments. Businesses thrive and businesses don't thrive all the time. Successful start-ups also occur all the time.
Link discussing the 2022 post-brexit economy said:
Despite the turbulence, the tech sector is still growing – and it looks like the UK is leading the way in Europe. ..The UK is now home to 144 unicorns, 237 soonicorns and over 58k startups....Thanks to consistent growth, the UK is now the third country in the world to reach a market value of $1 trillion in the tech sector – after the US and China. This means the UK tech industry is currently ahead of its European peers and is worth more than double Germany’s ($467.2 billion) and three times more than France’s ($307.5 billion) as well as retaining the lead when it comes to overall funding, unicorns and startups numbers.
https://www.eu-startups.com/2022/12/uk-tech-takes-the-top-spot-in-europe-as-the-ecosystem-keeps-growing/Ridgemont said:
‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’…
It’s one of the most frustrating aspects of this thread and perhaps PH threads in general is the almost idiotic circuitous arguments.
There was a government policy decided by a nitwit who for reasons that remain entirely unclear thought that lowering bars to immigration for say relatives of students, would be an excellent idea.
That, is a decision not by ‘brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’ but by an idiotic premier whose party is just about to be pummelled into the dirt for that decision.
That also incidentally is a million miles away from being a member of a union which insists on freedom of movement without *any* control.
One is a stupid policy with electoral repercussions the tories are just about to reap, the other a supranational policy that no national government has control over.
So strangely your point just underlines the importance of Brexit.
It also underlines the dishonest Alistair Campbellesque posturing that so much of this debate features. ‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’. Manure.
Crap decisions made by crap governments now face the logical democratic output. Ie election defeat.. If that’s an output of Brexit it is actually functioning very much as designed as opposed to continuing a scenario within the EU where crap decisions never get challenged because well it’s above the national government’s pay grade to control.
Great post. I share your frustration at the transparent dishonesty that some on the Remain side display when it comes to this point. No informed, honest person could possibly blame Brexit for the current levels of immigration. As you absolutely correctly put it, the blame lies with Government immigration policy post Brexit and the Government is going to be roundly and rightly punished for its duplicity in the matter. It’s one of the most frustrating aspects of this thread and perhaps PH threads in general is the almost idiotic circuitous arguments.
There was a government policy decided by a nitwit who for reasons that remain entirely unclear thought that lowering bars to immigration for say relatives of students, would be an excellent idea.
That, is a decision not by ‘brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’ but by an idiotic premier whose party is just about to be pummelled into the dirt for that decision.
That also incidentally is a million miles away from being a member of a union which insists on freedom of movement without *any* control.
One is a stupid policy with electoral repercussions the tories are just about to reap, the other a supranational policy that no national government has control over.
So strangely your point just underlines the importance of Brexit.
It also underlines the dishonest Alistair Campbellesque posturing that so much of this debate features. ‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’. Manure.
Crap decisions made by crap governments now face the logical democratic output. Ie election defeat.. If that’s an output of Brexit it is actually functioning very much as designed as opposed to continuing a scenario within the EU where crap decisions never get challenged because well it’s above the national government’s pay grade to control.
But for some Remain supporters its par for the course... Raining today? Must be down to Brexit. Dog farting? That'll be Brexit for ya!
It's beyond pathetic and it poisons debate.
I think it is intended to serve as a smoke screen for some for their failure/refusal to answer the most basic questions about rejoining. A few will honestly say that they would rejoin at any cost, or lay out what their red lines might be, but most are super coy about such questions as joining the Euro, Schengen, European taxes, immigrant quotas, interbank balances, acceptable levels of ever closer union... Hell, many of the same people who whined incessantly about how the Referendum question was too simplistic, the public too poorly informed, the threshold set too low, now want to hold another Referendum in exactly the same manner simply because they think they might win next time. All those righteous demands for detail go right out of the window once it dawns on them that no matter what the opinion polls say right now, a vote to rejoin would be most unlikely to be won once the precise details of the terms of rejoining were made clear to the public. Hypocrisy know no limits here!
andymadmak said:
Great post. I share your frustration at the transparent dishonesty that some on the Remain side display when it comes to this point. No informed, honest person could possibly blame Brexit for the current levels of immigration. As you absolutely correctly put it, the blame lies with Government immigration policy post Brexit and the Government is going to be roundly and rightly punished for its duplicity in the matter.
But for some Remain supporters its par for the course... Raining today? Must be down to Brexit. Dog farting? That'll be Brexit for ya!
It's beyond pathetic and it poisons debate.
Sorry but this informed honest person very much blames brexit for current levels of immigration. Many brexiters did not like FMOL but favoured a system controlled by the UK government. I posted many times this was a mistake FOML was a market based immigration system so get a job or leave. A government based system was bound to be a disaster. Guess what I was right.But for some Remain supporters its par for the course... Raining today? Must be down to Brexit. Dog farting? That'll be Brexit for ya!
It's beyond pathetic and it poisons debate.
andymadmak said:
I think it is intended to serve as a smoke screen for some for their failure/refusal to answer the most basic questions about rejoining. A few will honestly say that they would rejoin at any cost, or lay out what their red lines might be, but most are super coy about such questions as joining the Euro, Schengen, European taxes, immigrant quotas, interbank balances, acceptable levels of ever closer union... Hell, many of the same people who whined incessantly about how the Referendum question was too simplistic, the public too poorly informed, the threshold set too low, now want to hold another Referendum in exactly the same manner simply because they think they might win next time. All those righteous demands for detail go right out of the window once it dawns on them that no matter what the opinion polls say right now, a vote to rejoin would be most unlikely to be won once the precise details of the terms of rejoining were made clear to the public. Hypocrisy know no limits here!
Why would a rejoin campaign need to answer any of those question. We know they need us more than we need them so they will give us everything we want. We can have unicorns, we give £350by to the NHS, we can even use the team leave his again.Joking aside not sure rejoining is worth the arguments. Rejoining EEA with some CU agreement would be a better option.
Mrr T said:
andymadmak said:
Great post. I share your frustration at the transparent dishonesty that some on the Remain side display when it comes to this point. No informed, honest person could possibly blame Brexit for the current levels of immigration. As you absolutely correctly put it, the blame lies with Government immigration policy post Brexit and the Government is going to be roundly and rightly punished for its duplicity in the matter.
But for some Remain supporters its par for the course... Raining today? Must be down to Brexit. Dog farting? That'll be Brexit for ya!
It's beyond pathetic and it poisons debate.
Sorry but this informed honest person very much blames brexit for current levels of immigration. Many brexiters did not like FMOL but favoured a system controlled by the UK government. I posted many times this was a mistake FOML was a market based immigration system so get a job or leave. A government based system was bound to be a disaster. Guess what I was right.But for some Remain supporters its par for the course... Raining today? Must be down to Brexit. Dog farting? That'll be Brexit for ya!
It's beyond pathetic and it poisons debate.
post Brexit. And they were massively wrong decisions, so now we have Accountability. The Government has screwed up immigration. It is being held accountable for that screw up (amongst other things) Brexit ensured that accountability. EU migration was uncontrollable in every practical sense, and Governments could not be held accountable for it.
You're actually making the very point that we are making and which is one driver for Brexit. Accountability.
911hope said:
crankedup5 said:
Immigration, been a hot topic for years and is still one of. the major topics within the three main political parties.It is high on each of their manifesto to deal with the issue. Brexiteeers still enjoying such influence or is it. an issue amongst a broader group.
The reality is that the brexiteers and the Brexit they brought about INCREASED immigration in a big way. That type of influence should be a disappointment to them. Why do they ignore this Major negative impact, when assessing the impact of their decision.
Immigration is a good thing for the country but must be controlled to remain sustainable in respect of our infrastructure. So I wouldn’t agree your statement ‘major negative impact’ entirely.
andymadmak said:
Ridgemont said:
‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’…
It’s one of the most frustrating aspects of this thread and perhaps PH threads in general is the almost idiotic circuitous arguments.
There was a government policy decided by a nitwit who for reasons that remain entirely unclear thought that lowering bars to immigration for say relatives of students, would be an excellent idea.
That, is a decision not by ‘brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’ but by an idiotic premier whose party is just about to be pummelled into the dirt for that decision.
That also incidentally is a million miles away from being a member of a union which insists on freedom of movement without *any* control.
One is a stupid policy with electoral repercussions the tories are just about to reap, the other a supranational policy that no national government has control over.
So strangely your point just underlines the importance of Brexit.
It also underlines the dishonest Alistair Campbellesque posturing that so much of this debate features. ‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’. Manure.
Crap decisions made by crap governments now face the logical democratic output. Ie election defeat.. If that’s an output of Brexit it is actually functioning very much as designed as opposed to continuing a scenario within the EU where crap decisions never get challenged because well it’s above the national government’s pay grade to control.
Great post. I share your frustration at the transparent dishonesty that some on the Remain side display when it comes to this point. No informed, honest person could possibly blame Brexit for the current levels of immigration. As you absolutely correctly put it, the blame lies with Government immigration policy post Brexit and the Government is going to be roundly and rightly punished for its duplicity in the matter. It’s one of the most frustrating aspects of this thread and perhaps PH threads in general is the almost idiotic circuitous arguments.
There was a government policy decided by a nitwit who for reasons that remain entirely unclear thought that lowering bars to immigration for say relatives of students, would be an excellent idea.
That, is a decision not by ‘brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’ but by an idiotic premier whose party is just about to be pummelled into the dirt for that decision.
That also incidentally is a million miles away from being a member of a union which insists on freedom of movement without *any* control.
One is a stupid policy with electoral repercussions the tories are just about to reap, the other a supranational policy that no national government has control over.
So strangely your point just underlines the importance of Brexit.
It also underlines the dishonest Alistair Campbellesque posturing that so much of this debate features. ‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’. Manure.
Crap decisions made by crap governments now face the logical democratic output. Ie election defeat.. If that’s an output of Brexit it is actually functioning very much as designed as opposed to continuing a scenario within the EU where crap decisions never get challenged because well it’s above the national government’s pay grade to control.
But for some Remain supporters its par for the course... Raining today? Must be down to Brexit. Dog farting? That'll be Brexit for ya!
It's beyond pathetic and it poisons debate.
I think it is intended to serve as a smoke screen for some for their failure/refusal to answer the most basic questions about rejoining. A few will honestly say that they would rejoin at any cost, or lay out what their red lines might be, but most are super coy about such questions as joining the Euro, Schengen, European taxes, immigrant quotas, interbank balances, acceptable levels of ever closer union... Hell, many of the same people who whined incessantly about how the Referendum question was too simplistic, the public too poorly informed, the threshold set too low, now want to hold another Referendum in exactly the same manner simply because they think they might win next time. All those righteous demands for detail go right out of the window once it dawns on them that no matter what the opinion polls say right now, a vote to rejoin would be most unlikely to be won once the precise details of the terms of rejoining were made clear to the public. Hypocrisy know no limits here!
Mrr T said:
Why would a rejoin campaign need to answer any of those question. We know they need us more than we need them so they will give us everything we want. We can have unicorns, we give £350by to the NHS, we can even use the team leave his again.
Joking aside not sure rejoining is worth the arguments. Rejoining EEA with some CU agreement would be a better option.
Because if it doesn't it would represent hypocrisy on a scale hitherto unseen! You (generic) cannot spend 8 years complaining about how a Referendum (that you didn't like the result of) was held and all the while point out the shortcomings of the process and then in the next breath expect a new vote to be held under equally flawed terms simply because misleading the country (again?) might get you the result you want!Joking aside not sure rejoining is worth the arguments. Rejoining EEA with some CU agreement would be a better option.
I can tell you sincerely that, even as a latish conversion to Brexit I wasn't comfortable from the get-go with the way the 2106 vote was held, for the following reasons (and I said so at the time) :
1. There was no official party of "leave" that could be put in place to deliver the outcomes in the event of a YES vote
2. There should have been a requirement for a supermajority of some sort
3. The civil service should have been allowed to model all the likely scenarios, not simply the doomsday level stuff (which has not happened) that Cameron and Osbourne et al tried to push to the public and should have been allowed to do like for like Brexit modelling.
4. The whole debate should not have been allowed to become tribal.
It was clear from the earliest exchanges though that Remain thought it could win by insulting people and refusing to engage in any meaningful discussion of the issues that many Brexit voters were concerned about. You reap what you sow.
Of course, after the vote, the decision to put May and Robbins in charge was simply terrible. I say that with hindsight because at the time I hoped May would genuinely do the right thing. I was clearly wrong in that hope. Spending all that time trying to deliver BRINO, with all the massive downsides her deal had/has, (so much so that not even many Remain supporting MPs could vote for it) set in train a negotiation that we never quite recovered from. I think this is why so many supported Johnson btw. They didn't care that he'd break the rules, because they thought that a rule breaker was what was required to get us out of the negotiation strait jacket that May and Robbins had put the UK in.
Anyway it's all history now. If there is ever to be a vote on rejoining any bit if the EU I'd have zero objection to it provided it was done in a way that did not repeat the shortcomings of the first vote. And if the vote was properly delivered and the result was to rejoin in some way, I'd not be whining about it 8 days, 8 weeks, 8 months and certainly not 8 years later!
crankedup5 said:
andymadmak said:
Ridgemont said:
‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’…
It’s one of the most frustrating aspects of this thread and perhaps PH threads in general is the almost idiotic circuitous arguments.
There was a government policy decided by a nitwit who for reasons that remain entirely unclear thought that lowering bars to immigration for say relatives of students, would be an excellent idea.
That, is a decision not by ‘brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’ but by an idiotic premier whose party is just about to be pummelled into the dirt for that decision.
That also incidentally is a million miles away from being a member of a union which insists on freedom of movement without *any* control.
One is a stupid policy with electoral repercussions the tories are just about to reap, the other a supranational policy that no national government has control over.
So strangely your point just underlines the importance of Brexit.
It also underlines the dishonest Alistair Campbellesque posturing that so much of this debate features. ‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’. Manure.
Crap decisions made by crap governments now face the logical democratic output. Ie election defeat.. If that’s an output of Brexit it is actually functioning very much as designed as opposed to continuing a scenario within the EU where crap decisions never get challenged because well it’s above the national government’s pay grade to control.
Great post. I share your frustration at the transparent dishonesty that some on the Remain side display when it comes to this point. No informed, honest person could possibly blame Brexit for the current levels of immigration. As you absolutely correctly put it, the blame lies with Government immigration policy post Brexit and the Government is going to be roundly and rightly punished for its duplicity in the matter. It’s one of the most frustrating aspects of this thread and perhaps PH threads in general is the almost idiotic circuitous arguments.
There was a government policy decided by a nitwit who for reasons that remain entirely unclear thought that lowering bars to immigration for say relatives of students, would be an excellent idea.
That, is a decision not by ‘brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’ but by an idiotic premier whose party is just about to be pummelled into the dirt for that decision.
That also incidentally is a million miles away from being a member of a union which insists on freedom of movement without *any* control.
One is a stupid policy with electoral repercussions the tories are just about to reap, the other a supranational policy that no national government has control over.
So strangely your point just underlines the importance of Brexit.
It also underlines the dishonest Alistair Campbellesque posturing that so much of this debate features. ‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’. Manure.
Crap decisions made by crap governments now face the logical democratic output. Ie election defeat.. If that’s an output of Brexit it is actually functioning very much as designed as opposed to continuing a scenario within the EU where crap decisions never get challenged because well it’s above the national government’s pay grade to control.
But for some Remain supporters its par for the course... Raining today? Must be down to Brexit. Dog farting? That'll be Brexit for ya!
It's beyond pathetic and it poisons debate.
I think it is intended to serve as a smoke screen for some for their failure/refusal to answer the most basic questions about rejoining. A few will honestly say that they would rejoin at any cost, or lay out what their red lines might be, but most are super coy about such questions as joining the Euro, Schengen, European taxes, immigrant quotas, interbank balances, acceptable levels of ever closer union... Hell, many of the same people who whined incessantly about how the Referendum question was too simplistic, the public too poorly informed, the threshold set too low, now want to hold another Referendum in exactly the same manner simply because they think they might win next time. All those righteous demands for detail go right out of the window once it dawns on them that no matter what the opinion polls say right now, a vote to rejoin would be most unlikely to be won once the precise details of the terms of rejoining were made clear to the public. Hypocrisy know no limits here!
andymadmak said:
What's wrong with holding politicians to account?
Are we? Immigration is at record levels 8 years into this, and all I hear is how labour isn't going to fix. So it's at least another 5 until we may decide to give the next batch a go, or stick with this lot.So best case 13 years? Lol
Killboy said:
Are we? Immigration is at record levels 8 years into this, and all I hear is how labour isn't going to fix. So it's at least another 5 until we may decide to give the next batch a go, or stick with this lot.
So best case 13 years? Lol
Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?So best case 13 years? Lol
Jockman said:
Killboy said:
Are we? Immigration is at record levels 8 years into this, and all I hear is how labour isn't going to fix. So it's at least another 5 until we may decide to give the next batch a go, or stick with this lot.
So best case 13 years? Lol
Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?So best case 13 years? Lol
Add in the fact that the UK has spectacularly failed or chosen not to implement important parts of the agreement they negotiated (UK Customs controls keep getting delayed), why should the EU believe that the UK is negotiating anything in good faith?
Just to be clear I recognise the validity of the 2016 Referendum. I supported Remain, but have never suggested the UK should rejoin.
Jockman said:
Killboy said:
Are we? Immigration is at record levels 8 years into this, and all I hear is how labour isn't going to fix. So it's at least another 5 until we may decide to give the next batch a go, or stick with this lot.
So best case 13 years? Lol
Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?So best case 13 years? Lol
https://x.com/artemisfornow/status/180585543934461...
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