Brexit - was it worth it? (Vol. 4)

[andymadmak]

Mrr T said:

Why would a rejoin campaign need to answer any of those question. We know they need us more than we need them so they will give us everything we want. We can have unicorns, we give £350by to the NHS, we can even use the team leave his again.

Joking aside not sure rejoining is worth the arguments. Rejoining EEA with some CU agreement would be a better option.

Because if it doesn't it would represent hypocrisy on a scale hitherto unseen! You (generic) cannot spend 8 years complaining about how a Referendum (that you didn't like the result of) was held and all the while point out the shortcomings of the process and then in the next breath expect a new vote to be held under equally flawed terms simply because misleading the country (again?) might get you the result you want!

I can tell you sincerely that, even as a latish conversion to Brexit I wasn't comfortable from the get-go with the way the 2106 vote was held, for the following reasons (and I said so at the time) :

1. There was no official party of "leave" that could be put in place to deliver the outcomes in the event of a YES vote
2. There should have been a requirement for a supermajority of some sort
3. The civil service should have been allowed to model all the likely scenarios, not simply the doomsday level stuff (which has not happened) that Cameron and Osbourne et al tried to push to the public and should have been allowed to do like for like Brexit modelling.
4. The whole debate should not have been allowed to become tribal.

It was clear from the earliest exchanges though that Remain thought it could win by insulting people and refusing to engage in any meaningful discussion of the issues that many Brexit voters were concerned about. You reap what you sow.

Of course, after the vote, the decision to put May and Robbins in charge was simply terrible. I say that with hindsight because at the time I hoped May would genuinely do the right thing. I was clearly wrong in that hope. Spending all that time trying to deliver BRINO, with all the massive downsides her deal had/has, (so much so that not even many Remain supporting MPs could vote for it) set in train a negotiation that we never quite recovered from. I think this is why so many supported Johnson btw. They didn't care that he'd break the rules, because they thought that a rule breaker was what was required to get us out of the negotiation strait jacket that May and Robbins had put the UK in.
Anyway it's all history now. If there is ever to be a vote on rejoining any bit if the EU I'd have zero objection to it provided it was done in a way that did not repeat the shortcomings of the first vote. And if the vote was properly delivered and the result was to rejoin in some way, I'd not be whining about it 8 days, 8 weeks, 8 months and certainly not 8 years later!

[andymadmak]

Killboy said:

andymadmak said:

You're actually making the very point that we are making and which is one driver for Brexit. Accountability.

Let me know when that accountability solves anything.

What's wrong with holding politicians to account?

[blueg33]

crankedup5 said:

andymadmak said:

Ridgemont said:

‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’…

It’s one of the most frustrating aspects of this thread and perhaps PH threads in general is the almost idiotic circuitous arguments.

There was a government policy decided by a nitwit who for reasons that remain entirely unclear thought that lowering bars to immigration for say relatives of students, would be an excellent idea.

That, is a decision not by ‘brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’ but by an idiotic premier whose party is just about to be pummelled into the dirt for that decision.

That also incidentally is a million miles away from being a member of a union which insists on freedom of movement without *any* control.

One is a stupid policy with electoral repercussions the tories are just about to reap, the other a supranational policy that no national government has control over.
So strangely your point just underlines the importance of Brexit.

It also underlines the dishonest Alistair Campbellesque posturing that so much of this debate features. ‘Brexiteers and the Brexit they brought’. Manure.
Crap decisions made by crap governments now face the logical democratic output. Ie election defeat.. If that’s an output of Brexit it is actually functioning very much as designed as opposed to continuing a scenario within the EU where crap decisions never get challenged because well it’s above the national government’s pay grade to control.

Great post. I share your frustration at the transparent dishonesty that some on the Remain side display when it comes to this point. No informed, honest person could possibly blame Brexit for the current levels of immigration. As you absolutely correctly put it, the blame lies with Government immigration policy post Brexit and the Government is going to be roundly and rightly punished for its duplicity in the matter.
But for some Remain supporters its par for the course... Raining today? Must be down to Brexit. Dog farting? That'll be Brexit for ya!
It's beyond pathetic and it poisons debate.
I think it is intended to serve as a smoke screen for some for their failure/refusal to answer the most basic questions about rejoining. A few will honestly say that they would rejoin at any cost, or lay out what their red lines might be, but most are super coy about such questions as joining the Euro, Schengen, European taxes, immigrant quotas, interbank balances, acceptable levels of ever closer union... Hell, many of the same people who whined incessantly about how the Referendum question was too simplistic, the public too poorly informed, the threshold set too low, now want to hold another Referendum in exactly the same manner simply because they think they might win next time. All those righteous demands for detail go right out of the window once it dawns on them that no matter what the opinion polls say right now, a vote to rejoin would be most unlikely to be won once the precise details of the terms of rejoining were made clear to the public. Hypocrisy know no limits here!

Are you guys enjoying your echo chamber?

[anonymous-user]

andymadmak said:

What's wrong with holding politicians to account?

Are we? Immigration is at record levels 8 years into this, and all I hear is how labour isn't going to fix. So it's at least another 5 until we may decide to give the next batch a go, or stick with this lot.

So best case 13 years? Lol

[Jockman]

blueg33 said:

Are you guys enjoying your echo chamber?

Or you could put up a counter argument. Lots you could get your teeth into there.

[Jockman]

Killboy said:

Are we? Immigration is at record levels 8 years into this, and all I hear is how labour isn't going to fix. So it's at least another 5 until we may decide to give the next batch a go, or stick with this lot.

So best case 13 years? Lol

Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?

[sunbeam alpine]

Jockman said:

Killboy said:

Are we? Immigration is at record levels 8 years into this, and all I hear is how labour isn't going to fix. So it's at least another 5 until we may decide to give the next batch a go, or stick with this lot.

So best case 13 years? Lol

Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?

They'll have their work cut out given that the UK government has pretty much alienated it's EU allies by trying to enact policies which calm the right wing of the party and a large chunk of their older voter base. This has badly misfired and led to the rise of Reform.

Add in the fact that the UK has spectacularly failed or chosen not to implement important parts of the agreement they negotiated (UK Customs controls keep getting delayed), why should the EU believe that the UK is negotiating anything in good faith?

Just to be clear I recognise the validity of the 2016 Referendum. I supported Remain, but have never suggested the UK should rejoin.

[don'tbesilly]

Jockman said:

Killboy said:

Are we? Immigration is at record levels 8 years into this, and all I hear is how labour isn't going to fix. So it's at least another 5 until we may decide to give the next batch a go, or stick with this lot.

So best case 13 years? Lol

Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?

Worth a watch to give you a flavour of Labours approach, alternatively it’s good for a laugh.

https://x.com/artemisfornow/status/180585543934461...

[Jockman]

sunbeam alpine said:

Jockman said:

Killboy said:

Are we? Immigration is at record levels 8 years into this, and all I hear is how labour isn't going to fix. So it's at least another 5 until we may decide to give the next batch a go, or stick with this lot.

So best case 13 years? Lol

Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?

They'll have their work cut out given that the UK government has pretty much alienated it's EU allies by trying to enact policies which calm the right wing of the party and a large chunk of their older voter base. This has badly misfired and led to the rise of Reform.

Add in the fact that the UK has spectacularly failed or chosen not to implement important parts of the agreement they negotiated (UK Customs controls keep getting delayed), why should the EU believe that the UK is negotiating anything in good faith?

Just to be clear I recognise the validity of the 2016 Referendum. I supported Remain, but have never suggested the UK should rejoin.

Labour reckons this can all be sorted, though I did read that some of our European Partners were actively looking at a Rwanda type of deterrent. This confuses me but then again that’s not difficult to do.

[Mortarboard]

turbobloke said:

https://www.eu-startups.com/2022/12/uk-tech-takes-...

Note, this does not say what turb's quote says

Quantity does not equal quality

M.

[Jockman]

don'tbesilly said:

Jockman said:

Killboy said:

Are we? Immigration is at record levels 8 years into this, and all I hear is how labour isn't going to fix. So it's at least another 5 until we may decide to give the next batch a go, or stick with this lot.

So best case 13 years? Lol

Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?

Worth a watch to give you a flavour of Labours approach, alternatively it’s good for a laugh.

https://x.com/artemisfornow/status/180585543934461...

Jeez…please tell me that’s a cut and paste. The media will be the Official Opposition on the 5th July. They must be licking their lips.

[Mortarboard]

andymadmak said:

Great post. I share your frustration at the transparent dishonesty that some on the Remain side display when it comes to this point. No informed, honest person could possibly blame Brexit for the current levels of immigration. As you absolutely correctly put it, the blame lies with Government immigration policy post Brexit and the Government is going to be roundly and rightly punished for its duplicity in the matter.
But for some Remain supporters its par for the course... Raining today? Must be down to Brexit. Dog farting? That'll be Brexit for ya!
It's beyond pathetic and it poisons debate.
I think it is intended to serve as a smoke screen for some for their failure/refusal to answer the most basic questions about rejoining. A few will honestly say that they would rejoin at any cost, or lay out what their red lines might be, but most are super coy about such questions as joining the Euro, Schengen, European taxes, immigrant quotas, interbank balances, acceptable levels of ever closer union... Hell, many of the same people who whined incessantly about how the Referendum question was too simplistic, the public too poorly informed, the threshold set too low, now want to hold another Referendum in exactly the same manner simply because they think they might win next time. All those righteous demands for detail go right out of the window once it dawns on them that no matter what the opinion polls say right now, a vote to rejoin would be most unlikely to be won once the precise details of the terms of rejoining were made clear to the public. Hypocrisy know no limits here!

I think you're missing the mark there just a tad.

The point is brexiting was presented as being able to fix some aspects of immigration (lord ascroft poll from turb in 3, 2, 1.....)
The main bit that was "out of control" (rather than "not in control) was always under the purview of government and 40 brexits wouldn't change that.

There is some irony in arguing "rejoiners" now have to give a full "costing" and plan fir how rejoin happens, "but you can't blame brexiters for government actions".......


If you see rejoiners on here, by all means quote and discuss. Otherwise you're just fighting your own shadow.

M

[Mortarboard]

Jockman said:

Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?

There's only two options on asylum seekers:
1. Go it alone, and deal with each and every one that arrives on your shores and airports
2. Share the "burden" with your neighbours

The EU appears to be trying out the shared burden model.

Uk needs to decide what it wants to do. "Blame the eu" won't do much.

M.

[Mortarboard]

crankedup5 said:

Are you referring to the increase 2021 - 2023 ? if so the immigration numbers did indeed increase largely due to U.K. giving sanctuary to 283,000 Ukrainians obviously due to the war they are suffering. In addition the U.K. recently offered sanctuary to 120,000 Hong Kongers. However I agree that those people aside our immigration numbers are still to high and the Conservative Government are about to take responsibility for their failing regarding immigration control (in addition to their many other failings).
Immigration is a good thing for the country but must be controlled to remain sustainable in respect of our infrastructure. So I wouldn’t agree your statement ‘major negative impact’ entirely.

In that time, inward migration to the uk was what, well over 2 million?
15%, while not nothing, isn't largely the reason for the increase.

M.

[Jockman]

Mortarboard said:

Jockman said:

Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?

There's only two options on asylum seekers:
1. Go it alone, and deal with each and every one that arrives on your shores and airports
2. Share the "burden" with your neighbours

The EU appears to be trying out the shared burden model.

Uk needs to decide what it wants to do. "Blame the eu" won't do much.

M.

That John Ashworth video implies they can do both. Official policy of working closely with our European Partners whilst simultaneously flying back every illegal immigrant even though the majority are from Afghanistan and Iran.

[Mortarboard]

Jockman said:

That John Ashworth video implies they can do both. Official policy of working closely with our European Partners whilst simultaneously flying back every illegal immigrant even though the majority are from Afghanistan and Iran.

True.

Working closely with the EU may be easier now "the irish" are involved

https://www.politico.eu/article/ireland-uk-electio...

Immigrants, ironically

M.

[Garvin]

don'tbesilly said:

Jockman said:

Killboy said:

Are we? Immigration is at record levels 8 years into this, and all I hear is how labour isn't going to fix. So it's at least another 5 until we may decide to give the next batch a go, or stick with this lot.

So best case 13 years? Lol

Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?

Worth a watch to give you a flavour of Labours approach, alternatively it’s good for a laugh.

https://x.com/artemisfornow/status/180585543934461...

It’s not good for a laugh though really is it? This is the shocking standard of numbskull that could well be a government minister in a few weeks time.

[blueg33]

Jockman said:

blueg33 said:

Are you guys enjoying your echo chamber?

Or you could put up a counter argument. Lots you could get your teeth into there.

You are right, I could. But I’ve seen this lot in action before, it’s pointless because the rose tinted’s are glued on.

[don'tbesilly]

Jockman said:

Mortarboard said:

Jockman said:

Labour reckons it has a solution that excludes a Rwanda type deterrent. They say that engaging more with our European Partners may be the way forward. Worth a go?

There's only two options on asylum seekers:
1. Go it alone, and deal with each and every one that arrives on your shores and airports
2. Share the "burden" with your neighbours

The EU appears to be trying out the shared burden model.

Uk needs to decide what it wants to do. "Blame the eu" won't do much.

M.

That John Ashworth video implies they can do both. Official policy of working closely with our European Partners whilst simultaneously flying back every illegal immigrant even though the majority are from Afghanistan and Iran.

I’d like to be a fly on the wall at the meeting between Yvette Cooper & the Taliban to discuss a returns agreement!

Would Yvette Cooper ever return?

Labours policies don’t stack up, that tweet sums them up, zero clue.

Starmer will sign up to the EU migration pact, the numbers coming across the channel will be dwarfed in comparison to the 100,000 Starmer will agree to coming here, no doubt the crossings will also continue.

You only have to look at what’s happened/happening in Dublin/Paris to see what that looks like.

[Mortarboard]

don'tbesilly said:

I’d like to be a fly on the wall at the meeting between Yvette Cooper & the Taliban to discuss a returns agreement!

Would Yvette Cooper ever return?

Labours policies don’t stack up, that tweet sums them up, zero clue.

Starmer will sign up to the EU migration pact, the numbers coming across the channel will be dwarfed in comparison to the 100,000 Starmer will agree to coming here, no doubt the crossings will also continue.

You only have to look at what’s happened/happening in Dublin/Paris to see what that looks like.

So you think the UK would take approx 10% of all EU destined asylum seekers?

That's very generous of you

M.