Private schools, times a changing?
Discussion
okgo said:
Crikey.
How do you do that, out of interest? Also if I may ask, what drove that decision (was it first choice?) Because in 7 miles in either direction there’s some pretty amazing schools too (maybe with the exception of E London).
My other issue I think also is long term I don’t want to be in London, but if for example he got in to junior and subsequently senior school at Alleyns let’s say I’d be hard pushed to leave, that puts me at 50 still here!
Last year was pretty easy as it was all wfh, although it is still 2 hours on the road each day. This year we've started sharing the school runs on some days with a neighbour whose daughter started at JAGS which helps as I'm back in the office a couple of days a week. The school has an app which shows where everyone lives so it's possible to find people nearby to share the school runs.How do you do that, out of interest? Also if I may ask, what drove that decision (was it first choice?) Because in 7 miles in either direction there’s some pretty amazing schools too (maybe with the exception of E London).
My other issue I think also is long term I don’t want to be in London, but if for example he got in to junior and subsequently senior school at Alleyns let’s say I’d be hard pushed to leave, that puts me at 50 still here!
We didn't really do any research... someone recommended it, we applied without any real expectations of getting in (our son was a bit shy/didn't talk to strangers). The original plan was to send him to a local primary school as there are a couple of outstanding rated ones here but once he was offered a place at Dulwich it was hard to turn down!
It has been a while since I started this thread but since then I've visited 3-4 schools (with another 3 I'm yet to see). So far only one has been a state school, the difference was night and day, sadly.
Even little things like arranging a visit, the emails you get from any of the paid options are perfectly written and you get punctual replies. The state school gave us 10 hours notice of a viewing, and the email was like a text you'd write to a mate in a hurry while doing something else. Upon visiting the state, it didn't really change as I expected - mixed year groups together in the same class, so you could have a two year gulf between oldest and youngest in the class. The library was about the size of one of my bathrooms, felt a bit chaotic in the class rooms with 30 or so kids. It is a shame as the head who showed us round was a nice bloke, and clearly doing the best with what he had, it just seemed so blatantly unfair when compared with the private options I've seen. But this is going to be the reality in inner London, the chasm never more obvious than round here I expect.
With the privates the ongoing theme is that they're not that diverse, in an area that is probably not far off 50/50 white british/other I have seen only one black kid of hundreds so far, eye opening - many of the staff a bit jolly hockey sticks though some better than others in that regard. Class sizes/facilities/confident kids (we were shown around by a 12 year old this morning for the first 10 minutes, not phased by a group of 10 adults asking him questions that he'd never met) etc so much in-line with what has been said in this thread.
A few of the parents using our nursery have begun going to church to get into the well rated catholic school in the area, not something I'm interested in, but I can see the appeal. As I've said elsewhere on the forum, all the schools seen are still cheaper than a 2 year old going to nursery
Even little things like arranging a visit, the emails you get from any of the paid options are perfectly written and you get punctual replies. The state school gave us 10 hours notice of a viewing, and the email was like a text you'd write to a mate in a hurry while doing something else. Upon visiting the state, it didn't really change as I expected - mixed year groups together in the same class, so you could have a two year gulf between oldest and youngest in the class. The library was about the size of one of my bathrooms, felt a bit chaotic in the class rooms with 30 or so kids. It is a shame as the head who showed us round was a nice bloke, and clearly doing the best with what he had, it just seemed so blatantly unfair when compared with the private options I've seen. But this is going to be the reality in inner London, the chasm never more obvious than round here I expect.
With the privates the ongoing theme is that they're not that diverse, in an area that is probably not far off 50/50 white british/other I have seen only one black kid of hundreds so far, eye opening - many of the staff a bit jolly hockey sticks though some better than others in that regard. Class sizes/facilities/confident kids (we were shown around by a 12 year old this morning for the first 10 minutes, not phased by a group of 10 adults asking him questions that he'd never met) etc so much in-line with what has been said in this thread.
A few of the parents using our nursery have begun going to church to get into the well rated catholic school in the area, not something I'm interested in, but I can see the appeal. As I've said elsewhere on the forum, all the schools seen are still cheaper than a 2 year old going to nursery
okgo said:
It has been a while since I started this thread but since then I've visited 3-4 schools (with another 3 I'm yet to see). So far only one has been a state school, the difference was night and day, sadly.
Even little things like arranging a visit, the emails you get from any of the paid options are perfectly written and you get punctual replies. The state school gave us 10 hours notice of a viewing, and the email was like a text you'd write to a mate in a hurry while doing something else. Upon visiting the state, it didn't really change as I expected - mixed year groups together in the same class, so you could have a two year gulf between oldest and youngest in the class. The library was about the size of one of my bathrooms, felt a bit chaotic in the class rooms with 30 or so kids. It is a shame as the head who showed us round was a nice bloke, and clearly doing the best with what he had, it just seemed so blatantly unfair when compared with the private options I've seen. But this is going to be the reality in inner London, the chasm never more obvious than round here I expect.
With the privates the ongoing theme is that they're not that diverse, in an area that is probably not far off 50/50 white british/other I have seen only one black kid of hundreds so far, eye opening - many of the staff a bit jolly hockey sticks though some better than others in that regard. Class sizes/facilities/confident kids (we were shown around by a 12 year old this morning for the first 10 minutes, not phased by a group of 10 adults asking him questions that he'd never met) etc so much in-line with what has been said in this thread.
A few of the parents using our nursery have begun going to church to get into the well rated catholic school in the area, not something I'm interested in, but I can see the appeal. As I've said elsewhere on the forum, all the schools seen are still cheaper than a 2 year old going to nursery
We went through the same experiences and eventual thought process with our kids at secondary. Even little things like arranging a visit, the emails you get from any of the paid options are perfectly written and you get punctual replies. The state school gave us 10 hours notice of a viewing, and the email was like a text you'd write to a mate in a hurry while doing something else. Upon visiting the state, it didn't really change as I expected - mixed year groups together in the same class, so you could have a two year gulf between oldest and youngest in the class. The library was about the size of one of my bathrooms, felt a bit chaotic in the class rooms with 30 or so kids. It is a shame as the head who showed us round was a nice bloke, and clearly doing the best with what he had, it just seemed so blatantly unfair when compared with the private options I've seen. But this is going to be the reality in inner London, the chasm never more obvious than round here I expect.
With the privates the ongoing theme is that they're not that diverse, in an area that is probably not far off 50/50 white british/other I have seen only one black kid of hundreds so far, eye opening - many of the staff a bit jolly hockey sticks though some better than others in that regard. Class sizes/facilities/confident kids (we were shown around by a 12 year old this morning for the first 10 minutes, not phased by a group of 10 adults asking him questions that he'd never met) etc so much in-line with what has been said in this thread.
A few of the parents using our nursery have begun going to church to get into the well rated catholic school in the area, not something I'm interested in, but I can see the appeal. As I've said elsewhere on the forum, all the schools seen are still cheaper than a 2 year old going to nursery
In the end we went for it and we’re glad we did.
Fortunately I’m all done in august and glad to see the back of the monthly fees.
Do bear in mind that the charitable status private schools get is about to change so expect a 20% uplift in fees.
Good luck
okgo said:
Even little things like arranging a visit, the emails you get from any of the paid options are perfectly written and you get punctual replies. The state school gave us 10 hours notice of a viewing, and the email was like a text you'd write to a mate in a hurry while doing something else.
Is the school over-subscribed? This year one of our granddaughters moved from a private primary school to a state secondary. It did open evenings based on its feeder primary schools so coming from outside that her parents had a bit of a nightmare getting a visit - basically the school has no need to go out of its way as they know they'll be full anyway.Watching with interest because although the child is only due to be born this weekend we live in a rather "patchy" area (CR2) so need to assess options and when is best to start considering things like this.
Having been privately educated (in SE London) and my wife not, the tales of the things that happened in our respective schools and tales from friends etc with older kids going to state schools in the wider-local area is eye-opening.
Having been privately educated (in SE London) and my wife not, the tales of the things that happened in our respective schools and tales from friends etc with older kids going to state schools in the wider-local area is eye-opening.
Interesting thread. A subject we've debated a lot in this house. I was privately educated - I got a lovely stripy blazer and everything 
.
Our conclusion was that it really doesn't stack up against any sensible Cost/Benefit Analysis. If we were so loaded we could have everything we want to the quality we like, and still pay fees, we'd probably have done it regardless. To make sacrifices to achieve it, however, didn't make sense.
We've gone for the local state secondary which is half a mile away (and 'Good'), as opposed to at least 10 miles travel for a worthwhile independent school. Interestingly, comparing the two local options - GCSE results at the independent school are obviously better - it's academically selective whereas the local school has to take all-comers, but at A-Level, there's not much to tell between them.
It does seem to be much about facilities these days, and there's probably some benefit to that. I barely recognise my own alma mater these days. It was mostly about the academics in my day, and both structurally and in terms of facilities, it was a bit crap tbh. Now though, it's full of gleaming coffee shops, computer centres, a library that's much bigger and better equipped, multiple sports pavilions etc etc.
I sometimes feel bad that I haven't given my kids the same opportunity that was afforded me, but it wouldn't be like for like anyway, and I'm not convinced it'll make much difference in the long run.
We will see.
.Our conclusion was that it really doesn't stack up against any sensible Cost/Benefit Analysis. If we were so loaded we could have everything we want to the quality we like, and still pay fees, we'd probably have done it regardless. To make sacrifices to achieve it, however, didn't make sense.
We've gone for the local state secondary which is half a mile away (and 'Good'), as opposed to at least 10 miles travel for a worthwhile independent school. Interestingly, comparing the two local options - GCSE results at the independent school are obviously better - it's academically selective whereas the local school has to take all-comers, but at A-Level, there's not much to tell between them.
It does seem to be much about facilities these days, and there's probably some benefit to that. I barely recognise my own alma mater these days. It was mostly about the academics in my day, and both structurally and in terms of facilities, it was a bit crap tbh. Now though, it's full of gleaming coffee shops, computer centres, a library that's much bigger and better equipped, multiple sports pavilions etc etc.
I sometimes feel bad that I haven't given my kids the same opportunity that was afforded me, but it wouldn't be like for like anyway, and I'm not convinced it'll make much difference in the long run.
We will see.
Luke. said:
Move to Kent and take your pick of the grammar schools.
My two were at a fee paying pre-prep and now my son's just started at the local grammar school. He loves it and we've no complaints at all.
Well done getting your kids into grammar. My two were at a fee paying pre-prep and now my son's just started at the local grammar school. He loves it and we've no complaints at all.
I’m not sure it’s such a straight forward process for many in that I’m sure places are fiercely fought for ?
okgo said:
It has been a while since I started this thread but since then I've visited 3-4 schools (with another 3 I'm yet to see). So far only one has been a state school, the difference was night and day, sadly.
Even little things like arranging a visit, the emails you get from any of the paid options are perfectly written and you get punctual replies. The state school gave us 10 hours notice of a viewing, and the email was like a text you'd write to a mate in a hurry while doing something else. Upon visiting the state, it didn't really change as I expected - mixed year groups together in the same class, so you could have a two year gulf between oldest and youngest in the class. The library was about the size of one of my bathrooms, felt a bit chaotic in the class rooms with 30 or so kids. It is a shame as the head who showed us round was a nice bloke, and clearly doing the best with what he had, it just seemed so blatantly unfair when compared with the private options I've seen. But this is going to be the reality in inner London, the chasm never more obvious than round here I expect.
With the privates the ongoing theme is that they're not that diverse, in an area that is probably not far off 50/50 white british/other I have seen only one black kid of hundreds so far, eye opening - many of the staff a bit jolly hockey sticks though some better than others in that regard. Class sizes/facilities/confident kids (we were shown around by a 12 year old this morning for the first 10 minutes, not phased by a group of 10 adults asking him questions that he'd never met) etc so much in-line with what has been said in this thread.
A few of the parents using our nursery have begun going to church to get into the well rated catholic school in the area, not something I'm interested in, but I can see the appeal. As I've said elsewhere on the forum, all the schools seen are still cheaper than a 2 year old going to nursery
What’s notable is that gap between state and private is still eye-wateringly wide; London’s state schools are (on average) considerably better than the rest of the country; where during the 80s and 90s the reverse was true. Even little things like arranging a visit, the emails you get from any of the paid options are perfectly written and you get punctual replies. The state school gave us 10 hours notice of a viewing, and the email was like a text you'd write to a mate in a hurry while doing something else. Upon visiting the state, it didn't really change as I expected - mixed year groups together in the same class, so you could have a two year gulf between oldest and youngest in the class. The library was about the size of one of my bathrooms, felt a bit chaotic in the class rooms with 30 or so kids. It is a shame as the head who showed us round was a nice bloke, and clearly doing the best with what he had, it just seemed so blatantly unfair when compared with the private options I've seen. But this is going to be the reality in inner London, the chasm never more obvious than round here I expect.
With the privates the ongoing theme is that they're not that diverse, in an area that is probably not far off 50/50 white british/other I have seen only one black kid of hundreds so far, eye opening - many of the staff a bit jolly hockey sticks though some better than others in that regard. Class sizes/facilities/confident kids (we were shown around by a 12 year old this morning for the first 10 minutes, not phased by a group of 10 adults asking him questions that he'd never met) etc so much in-line with what has been said in this thread.
A few of the parents using our nursery have begun going to church to get into the well rated catholic school in the area, not something I'm interested in, but I can see the appeal. As I've said elsewhere on the forum, all the schools seen are still cheaper than a 2 year old going to nursery
In part that’s driven by demographics, and this will be playing through into the (lack of) diversity you saw.
In the 80s and 90s you could have a house in London and pay private school fees on two solid professional salaries - and hence private schools were very much accessible to “upper middle class” households.
Rises in house prices and school fees put that position in London well out of the reach of most - and many solid middle class professionals are sending their kids to state schools (where 20 years ago they would have 100% gone private).
I think the secondary schools do tend to be a bit more diverse than the posh prep schools (for all sorts of reasons).
brickwall said:
Rises in house prices and school fees put that position in London well out of the reach of most - and many solid middle class professionals are sending their kids to state schools (where 20 years ago they would have 100% gone private).
Does that mean there are fewer kids at private school in Londoan than 20yrs ago?Sheepshanks said:
brickwall said:
Rises in house prices and school fees put that position in London well out of the reach of most - and many solid middle class professionals are sending their kids to state schools (where 20 years ago they would have 100% gone private).
Does that mean there are fewer kids at private school in Londoan than 20yrs ago?And indeed the population of London has become more polarised (driven by and linked to house prices).
Luke. said:
Move to Kent and take your pick of the grammar schools.
My two were at a fee paying pre-prep and now my son's just started at the local grammar school. He loves it and we've no complaints at all.
I was just about to throw Grammar schools into the mix no need to pay private if you have a decent one of those in your area. My two were at a fee paying pre-prep and now my son's just started at the local grammar school. He loves it and we've no complaints at all.
It could always be worse you could be schooling your kids in Wales or Scotland.
BoRED S2upid said:
I was just about to throw Grammar schools into the mix no need to pay private if you have a decent one of those in your area.
It could always be worse you could be schooling your kids in Wales or Scotland.
Kent and Bucks have a fair few, but I don’t really want to move to either tbh. I also a suspect the houses have ‘fees’ baked in to an extent anyway in the case of Tunbridge Wells etc.It could always be worse you could be schooling your kids in Wales or Scotland.
I’d rather live where I want and take the hit. Especially given stamp duty being what it is. I also think they’re very big schools in the case of Skinners etc. my wife went to a grammar for a bit and still refers to it as ‘the pykey school’ such were the folk there - despite being smart, they weren’t all that pleasant from her reports. That was Aylesbury though tbf, T wells likely much better.
okgo said:
A few of the parents using our nursery have begun going to church to get into the well rated catholic school in the area, not something I'm interested in, but I can see the appeal. As I've said elsewhere on the forum, all the schools seen are still cheaper than a 2 year old going to nursery
One of the reasons some friends of mine decided to educate their daughter privately was that it cost about the same as they had been paying for nursery. I’m not sure they fully factored-in that unlike nursery, the school fees only cover about 36 weeks of attendance - I know they were shocked to discover that the autumn term finished about a week into December and the winter term started about a week into January!As they live in an area where there are grammar schools, they are hoping that the fees will cease from age 11.
Sheepshanks said:
brickwall said:
Rises in house prices and school fees put that position in London well out of the reach of most - and many solid middle class professionals are sending their kids to state schools (where 20 years ago they would have 100% gone private).
Does that mean there are fewer kids at private school in Londoan than 20yrs ago?I was privately educated in Edinburgh 20 years ago and we all came from fairly normal middle class families. Fast forward, my school mates and I are all at the point of having kids and, at the moment from discussion, none are attending,or planning private school.
Even with decent jobs - engineers, surveyors, accountants, doctors - I don't know one who is sending their kids private. House prices and relative wage stagnation compared to our parents seems to be the main reason from what I can see.
FamousPheasant said:
Sheepshanks said:
brickwall said:
Rises in house prices and school fees put that position in London well out of the reach of most - and many solid middle class professionals are sending their kids to state schools (where 20 years ago they would have 100% gone private).
Does that mean there are fewer kids at private school in Londoan than 20yrs ago?I was privately educated in Edinburgh 20 years ago and we all came from fairly normal middle class families. Fast forward, my school mates and I are all at the point of having kids and, at the moment from discussion, none are attending,or planning private school.
Even with decent jobs - engineers, surveyors, accountants, doctors - I don't know one who is sending their kids private. House prices and relative wage stagnation compared to our parents seems to be the main reason from what I can see.
When the fees for 2 kids at private school takes up gross income equivalent to 3x the UK average salary, it’s easy to see why they’re *seen* more now as only accessible to the global elite, rather than being attainable for hard-working middle class families.
I went to a state boys' grammar school in the 1980s, while my sister didn't get into the girls' equivalent of my school and ended up at the private school across the road from mine.
I'm not sure whether school results were published in league tables at that time, but when league tables came out, these three schools all had similar, extremely good, exam results.
The big difference, though, was in the facilities and buildings. My school was literally falling apart. Probably about half the classrooms were portakabins which were already past their intended lifespan and featured some torn and broken interior walls and doors. The buildings also included the original mansion, whose bedrooms had been converted into small classrooms for the sixth form. Pupils were banned from using the house's main staircase because it was too weak, so everybody trooped up and down the external iron fire escape. The school's music room was a curious black wooden structure looking like a barn, which had originally been a shooting range, while the canteen was, I think, a converted World War 2 factory. I don't think there was a double-glazed window anywhere on the premises when I started there.
Naturally, the facilities and equipment available matched the state of the buildings, although the staff did their best, and funds were supplemented by fundraising efforts such as a big annual school fair.
At my sister's private school, everything was a shade more modern and better funded.
In some senses, it mattered less then because everybody everywhere was learning using pens and paper, textbooks and blackboards, so you could still just about do that in a freezing, leaking hovel. Nowadays, a shortage of computers and other resources must seriously hamper learning.
In fairness, during the time I was at my school, there was quite a change as new buildings and extensions started to be built, and seeing the school now, the site has been transformed out of all recognition.
As far as I understand it, today 'my' grammar school still has the excellent reputation it always did but there is much harder competition to get into it than in my day. All schools I've visited with my children have a lot of technology that wasn't dreamt of when I was at school, but I expect there will still be a gulf between the average state school and the average private school.
Sorry, mostly off-topic reminiscences...
I'm not sure whether school results were published in league tables at that time, but when league tables came out, these three schools all had similar, extremely good, exam results.
The big difference, though, was in the facilities and buildings. My school was literally falling apart. Probably about half the classrooms were portakabins which were already past their intended lifespan and featured some torn and broken interior walls and doors. The buildings also included the original mansion, whose bedrooms had been converted into small classrooms for the sixth form. Pupils were banned from using the house's main staircase because it was too weak, so everybody trooped up and down the external iron fire escape. The school's music room was a curious black wooden structure looking like a barn, which had originally been a shooting range, while the canteen was, I think, a converted World War 2 factory. I don't think there was a double-glazed window anywhere on the premises when I started there.
Naturally, the facilities and equipment available matched the state of the buildings, although the staff did their best, and funds were supplemented by fundraising efforts such as a big annual school fair.
At my sister's private school, everything was a shade more modern and better funded.
In some senses, it mattered less then because everybody everywhere was learning using pens and paper, textbooks and blackboards, so you could still just about do that in a freezing, leaking hovel. Nowadays, a shortage of computers and other resources must seriously hamper learning.
In fairness, during the time I was at my school, there was quite a change as new buildings and extensions started to be built, and seeing the school now, the site has been transformed out of all recognition.
As far as I understand it, today 'my' grammar school still has the excellent reputation it always did but there is much harder competition to get into it than in my day. All schools I've visited with my children have a lot of technology that wasn't dreamt of when I was at school, but I expect there will still be a gulf between the average state school and the average private school.
Sorry, mostly off-topic reminiscences...
@ sheepshanks But all you end up with is then state schools that are literally only that by name and the houses cost £400k more because they’re in catchment.
London centric of course but a good example is The Hyde Farm estate in Balham, it’s about 10-15 roads with a decent primary and secondary, the catchment is tiny and houses are all IMO quite overpriced because they’re there - everyone that lives there is a well paid professional and basically the school is free but you’re paying overs for the house so much for much.
I hear your points and I agree, we probably will only have one which makes life easier - but is worth noting that of the people we know sending kids private both in London and other places, the majority have wealth in older generations that is paying for it.
London centric of course but a good example is The Hyde Farm estate in Balham, it’s about 10-15 roads with a decent primary and secondary, the catchment is tiny and houses are all IMO quite overpriced because they’re there - everyone that lives there is a well paid professional and basically the school is free but you’re paying overs for the house so much for much.
I hear your points and I agree, we probably will only have one which makes life easier - but is worth noting that of the people we know sending kids private both in London and other places, the majority have wealth in older generations that is paying for it.
FamousPheasant said:
That's an interesting point and lines up with what I'm seeing.
I was privately educated in Edinburgh 20 years ago and we all came from fairly normal middle class families. Fast forward, my school mates and I are all at the point of having kids and, at the moment from discussion, none are attending,or planning private school.
Even with decent jobs - engineers, surveyors, accountants, doctors - I don't know one who is sending their kids private. House prices and relative wage stagnation compared to our parents seems to be the main reason from what I can see.
Grandparents, and I say this as one myself, so am reasonably familiar with it, are chipping in. Or paying completely. And that happened with our friends for the generation before too. And presumably has always happened.I was privately educated in Edinburgh 20 years ago and we all came from fairly normal middle class families. Fast forward, my school mates and I are all at the point of having kids and, at the moment from discussion, none are attending,or planning private school.
Even with decent jobs - engineers, surveyors, accountants, doctors - I don't know one who is sending their kids private. House prices and relative wage stagnation compared to our parents seems to be the main reason from what I can see.
I would also say that, having mixed a bit with parents / grandparents at the school our granddaughter went to that, sure, there's a range of people, but quite a lot of them appear to be just plain wealthy.
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