Elon Musk $41B offer for Twitter
Discussion
sugerbear said:
I was watching a rich rebuilds youtube video at the weekend (on the cybertruck).
The biggest take away was the panel gaps / misaligned panels, which were pretty shocking or a car that retails at well over 100k and all the silly things like not being able to reach into the bed by the side because there is a massive pillar in the way, poor visibility and the fact that a gas truck is just a much better proposition (and much much cheaper).
The pricing issue was also an issue as well, prices in free fall because Tesla in their wisdom told everyone that there will be a 75k version truck coming soon so everyone has stopped buying the expensive version.
On the upside the interor looked nice.
Tesla is on the downward path, a better CEO would arrest that decline. Musk just seems to carry on promising more stuff he can't deliver. The new roadster hasn't appeared anywhere, that was announced years ago. Twitter is getting worse, I now have responses that either timeout or only load the first few stories and then nothing else.
Best case for Tesla is for Musk to be removed.
Agreed - let someone who knows manufacturing (even though Musk claimed "At this point, I think I know more about manufacturing than anyone currently alive on earth") and the market as a whole. Then Tesla might stand a chance.The biggest take away was the panel gaps / misaligned panels, which were pretty shocking or a car that retails at well over 100k and all the silly things like not being able to reach into the bed by the side because there is a massive pillar in the way, poor visibility and the fact that a gas truck is just a much better proposition (and much much cheaper).
The pricing issue was also an issue as well, prices in free fall because Tesla in their wisdom told everyone that there will be a 75k version truck coming soon so everyone has stopped buying the expensive version.
On the upside the interor looked nice.
Tesla is on the downward path, a better CEO would arrest that decline. Musk just seems to carry on promising more stuff he can't deliver. The new roadster hasn't appeared anywhere, that was announced years ago. Twitter is getting worse, I now have responses that either timeout or only load the first few stories and then nothing else.
Best case for Tesla is for Musk to be removed.
As for the build quality of the Cybertruck - yeah, its terrible. There is actually one around me somewhere (see it every weekend at the farmers market). While the magnetic advert on the side is easy to fit, you can see the panel gaps from the other side of the road! And after a few weeks of usage, every panel is now a different color. Yeah, doesnt look good.
Hoovies Cybertruck has numerous panel issues (and rust) and the internal dash covering is inconsistent and starting to peal - they are just not built well. But its not just the Cybertruck. Saw a video of a brand new, just delivered Model 3 Performance (the brand new one) that had bad build quality but shocking alignment! They drove it straight to an alignment place and it was all over the place. Come on, its the performance model and very capable, so at least make the damn thing go in a straight line! These are basic quality checks that just should never happen. What is failing here? The people? The process?
If this was a cheap as chips car, you could excuse it. But in the case of the Cybertruck, its at least $80k, usually more. At that price I expect it to be built well, actually drive on the road and have what I paid for on the options list. Its not hard. And if you cant have certain features, dont sell them. Rushed out and they are paying the penalty for it now.
Byker28i said:
Cybertruck sold just over 3800 and had to recall them all for the thottle pedal failure.
Cybertruck is a hefty premium over the F150 lightning for example, of which they sold approx 25k in the US last year, then over 7700 in the first quarter of this year.
Build quality was nice in the Lightning I was in last year.
To be fair, and I do try to be, Tesla have sold over 3800 Cybertrucks. Seems that the number should be closer to 8000, well made at least, based on the VIN's that are appearing. There are strict rules on VIN's, so hopefully this isnt fabricated, but production rates are ramping up and each month they seem to be building more. Because there is no dealer network, its hard to tell what the difference between manufactured to delivered is yet, but what is certain is that there are plenty available in the 'service centers' and there seems to be evidence that a lot of the reservation list is being skipped. So lets see.Cybertruck is a hefty premium over the F150 lightning for example, of which they sold approx 25k in the US last year, then over 7700 in the first quarter of this year.
Build quality was nice in the Lightning I was in last year.
Tesla are claiming that they will get to 125,000 annually, but industry analysts are saying that its going to be less than 50,000 in 2024. They might get to a higher number in 2025, but lets see. The problem is demand. It seems that the conversion rate from order ($100) to delivery is around 2% giving you something around 40,000 to 50,000 actual orders! This should improve when they launch the cheaper RWD model, but the demand for $80k or $100k pickups is pretty small overall, even smaller for EV's (as Ford has found out). Ford sold about 25,000 Lightnings in 2023 and have already sold 7,700 of them in Q1. But the Silverado EV is now out and Ram have their PHEV model coming very soon, and thats before we even mention Rivian.
Its a crowded market and a lot of people will go with an existing manufacturer for ease of access to a dealer (and usually relationship over time). The Cybertruck will be a niche product for some time, and Tesla run the risk of actually missing the market.
Insightful as it is to listen to people who don't own a Tesla, give their views on the quality of Tesla, it might be more relevant to look at some of the customer satisfaction scores for Tesla, to get some kind of independent, unbiased view. For example, we could start with Tesla's NPS score, and compare that to competitor brands, to understand what real customers actually think....
https://customergauge.com/benchmarks/blog/tesla-np...
https://customergauge.com/benchmarks/blog/tesla-np...
EddieSteadyGo said:
Insightful as it is to listen to people who don't own a Tesla, give their views on the quality of Tesla, it might be more relevant to look at some of the customer satisfaction scores for Tesla...
Why would you use customer satisfaction scores to gauge build quality? 
Could it be because the data that measures build quality isn't quite to your liking?
This is a mad looking list isn't it, but it's the biggest and most relevant dataset for build quality I could find.
Btw everyone, there is a Tesla thread.
EddieSteadyGo said:
durbster said:
....
This is a mad looking list isn't it, but it's the biggest and most relevant dataset for build quality I could find.
Btw everyone, there is a Tesla thread.
Totally believable... Stellantis group make the best cars... others would beg to differ. This is a mad looking list isn't it, but it's the biggest and most relevant dataset for build quality I could find.
Btw everyone, there is a Tesla thread.
JD Power is a very large, well established source of car data so it should be credible enough, but I dunno much about data from the US market so I'm open to something better.
As for being believable, this is a quote from your link:
Your link said:
The company’s customers are committed, passionate, and happy to spread the word. In fact, in one survey, 99% of Tesla Model 3 owners said they would recommend the car to their family and friends, and 98% said they’d buy one again.
Convincing stuff eh? 
EddieSteadyGo said:
Insightful as it is to listen to people who don't own a Tesla, give their views on the quality of Tesla, it might be more relevant to look at some of the customer satisfaction scores for Tesla, to get some kind of independent, unbiased view. For example, we could start with Tesla's NPS score, and compare that to competitor brands, to understand what real customers actually think....
https://customergauge.com/benchmarks/blog/tesla-np...
A lot of these owners are people who go on X-formerly-known-as-Twitter to post things like:https://customergauge.com/benchmarks/blog/tesla-np...
"My Cybertruk with 65 miles on it wouldn't respond to the app and wouldn't charge. As I tried to open the door I gave myself a cut on an burr in the metal panel. As I crouched on the ground in pain I noticed water dripping from a rear quarter panel where some plastic trim had popped loose. Then the direction selector control fell off the roof. Still love the car."
Satisfaction surveys are not great indicators of quality because people don't objectively react to cars. People get emotionally invested in them and often find things to like about them despite objective flaws. Not to mention the sunk cost fallacy/self-justification that must happen when you spend $100k on a 'truck' that looks like its textures failed to load and isn't warranted for off-road use.
Land Rover used to regularly top the JD Power satisfaction ratings while regularly coming plumb last of the reliability/quality ratings.
durbster said:
Convincing stuff eh?
My perception is that Stellantis group cars are generally poor quality. But, rather like this thread re Tesla, I've never owned one, and tbh have no interest in owning one either. But if the JD Power survey says they are the best, I'm sure they will sell lots of cars and find many happy customers. CoolHands said:
Surely it’s the people who don’t have one whose opinion matters? If I think the build quality is s
te, then I’m not going to buy one.
I suppose most people who are serious go and try them for themselves. Tesla make it very easy to test drive their cars. From my experience of test driving a Model X, 3 and Y they also make zero effort after the test drive to sell you a car. There is no annoying post-drive sales 'chat about the numbers'.te, then I’m not going to buy one.EddieSteadyGo said:
Insightful as it is to listen to people who don't own a Tesla, give their views on the quality of Tesla, it might be more relevant to look at some of the customer satisfaction scores for Tesla, to get some kind of independent, unbiased view. For example, we could start with Tesla's NPS score, and compare that to competitor brands, to understand what real customers actually think....
https://customergauge.com/benchmarks/blog/tesla-np...
A mate of mine has a 2022 Tesla 3 which he thinks is great. It's pretty shocking really, but he likes it. https://customergauge.com/benchmarks/blog/tesla-np...
EddieSteadyGo said:
Insightful as it is to listen to people who don't own a Tesla, give their views on the quality of Tesla, it might be more relevant to look at some of the customer satisfaction scores for Tesla, to get some kind of independent, unbiased view. For example, we could start with Tesla's NPS score, and compare that to competitor brands, to understand what real customers actually think....
https://customergauge.com/benchmarks/blog/tesla-np...
For every pro-Tesla report, there are plenty of ones that score them, in my opinion, accurately:https://customergauge.com/benchmarks/blog/tesla-np...
https://www.forbes.com/sites/edgarsten/2024/03/14/...
This is from March 2024 and while Tesla wasnt scored directly on the survey, if they had, they would have been just above the industry average. Thats the customer service index, run by JD Power.
On the other hand, Consumer Reports rated the Model Y in their top 10 best cars earlier this year:
https://www.consumerreports.org/cars/best-cars-of-...
Squeaking in at the bottom of the list. Edmunds have constantly criticized Tesla and they still dont score well on their scheme, but are still a recommended EV. But these surveys illustrate the issue, there is no standard. JD Power still rate Lexus as the best thing ever, but no Lexus appears on Consumer Reports. And what is really weird is that the BMW X5 hybrid appears on the Consumer reports at all - I recommend talking to a BMW dealer about those things! They are good and pleasantly reliable, but they arent that good!!!
And thats the problem - subjective at best. For what Tesla does well, they do it very well. For what Tesla does badly, well, its patchy at very best, often on the terrible side. Since purchasing a car is an entirely personal experience (I cannot tell someone that their preference is wrong), I can take some specific measures - efficiency, safety, features, ride, comfort, build quality etc.
I picked those ones specifically - there are some areas in which Tesla scores well and others not. I have always said and will continue to say that SOME (we have to exclude the Cybertruck on this now) Teslas are the most efficient and safest cars on the road - and have access to the best charging network. But, they have shocking build quality that absolutely doesnt fit their price tag and there have been plenty of examples of utterly egregious errors.
Now, I noticed that you used 'quality of Tesla' while everyone else seems to be commenting on the build quality. It is true that Tesla have one of the best integrated infotainment systems, but suffer with an utterly ridiculous intermittent wipe setting. It really depends on what you view 'quality' is, but when it comes to build quality, they have a terrible reputation. Some are built well, and great for the owners of them. But when its utterly random if you will get a decent one (and PDI's are nonexistant), it makes it a tough sell in my book. Chinese built models seem to be much better, so great for European buyers, but here in the USA, you can see those panel gaps from 50 meters away.....
off_again said:
And thats the problem - subjective at best. For what Tesla does well, they do it very well. For what Tesla does badly, well, its patchy at very best, often on the terrible side. Since purchasing a car is an entirely personal experience (I cannot tell someone that their preference is wrong), I can take some specific measures - efficiency, safety, features, ride, comfort, build quality etc.
But when its utterly random if you will get a decent one (and PDI's are nonexistant), it makes it a tough sell in my book. Chinese built models seem to be much better, so great for European buyers, but here in the USA, you can see those panel gaps from 50 meters away.....
For the public "quality" is a subjective measure. I would guess 90% of people couldn't spot or care about panel gaps, they care about the cars works and this is where Tesla is good.But when its utterly random if you will get a decent one (and PDI's are nonexistant), it makes it a tough sell in my book. Chinese built models seem to be much better, so great for European buyers, but here in the USA, you can see those panel gaps from 50 meters away.....
I can walk up to it in the morning and by the time my seatbelt is on the car is ready to go with the Sat is showing the best way to work to avoid traffic. No buttons to press, no time for Sat nav to start, etc. I suspect this is what most people recognise as "Quality"
I had a M3LR and it did many things very well. the range was excellent and it handled well, for its weight. The infotainment system was, as others have said, excellent, though it did look beta, with small text and numbers and not intuitive to read.
Where I struggled with it, was it had a whiff of 90's Alfa. The small things began to add up. Windows that stuck, auto wipers that were utter pants, white screen of death from time to time. Bits of trim fading.
It once lost its entire ABS, brake regen and traction on me, about 250 miles from home. I had to drive it back with unassisted brakes - all the braking performance of my Series Land Rover. It then took weeks to get it sorted. It had 5,000 miles on the clock.
It just had a whiff of penny pinching and using the customer as the PDI and test mule.
Castrol for a knave said:
I had a M3LR and it did many things very well. the range was excellent and it handled well, for its weight. The infotainment system was, as others have said, excellent, though it did look beta, with small text and numbers and not intuitive to read.
Where I struggled with it, was it had a whiff of 90's Alfa. The small things began to add up. Windows that stuck, auto wipers that were utter pants, white screen of death from time to time. Bits of trim fading.
It once lost its entire ABS, brake regen and traction on me, about 250 miles from home. I had to drive it back with unassisted brakes - all the braking performance of my Series Land Rover. It then took weeks to get it sorted. It had 5,000 miles on the clock.
It just had a whiff of penny pinching and using the customer as the PDI and test mule.
That seems to sum up Tesla in general - many good ideas, but a lack of focus on the basics. Where I struggled with it, was it had a whiff of 90's Alfa. The small things began to add up. Windows that stuck, auto wipers that were utter pants, white screen of death from time to time. Bits of trim fading.
It once lost its entire ABS, brake regen and traction on me, about 250 miles from home. I had to drive it back with unassisted brakes - all the braking performance of my Series Land Rover. It then took weeks to get it sorted. It had 5,000 miles on the clock.
It just had a whiff of penny pinching and using the customer as the PDI and test mule.
EddieSteadyGo said:
CoolHands said:
Surely it’s the people who don’t have one whose opinion matters? If I think the build quality is ste, then I’m not going to buy one.
I suppose most people who are serious go and try them for themselves. Tesla make it very easy to test drive their cars. From my experience of test driving a Model X, 3 and Y they also make zero effort after the test drive to sell you a car. There is no annoying post-drive sales 'chat about the numbers'.te, then I’m not going to buy one.At one point I was looking at a 3 but couldn't make it work with my travel story, nor justify the Tesla/EV markup.
Now there's other options available, unless they don't appear on your Company Car lease plan
Eddie, is your's a company car one? I think thats where Tesla got in early getting them as the EV car of choice on list of cars
Edited by Byker28i on Tuesday 4th June 09:52
Byker28i said:
So do BYD, and they are better looking for their model 3 equivilant (the S still looks good) and offer better value for money, just not the Tesla brand
At one point I was looking at a 3 but couldn't make it work with my travel story, nor justify the Tesla/EV markup.
Now there's other options available, unless they don't appear on your Company Car lease plan
Eddie, is your's a company car one? I think thats where Tesla got in early getting them as the EV car of choice on list of cars
TBH new EV's make a huge amount of sense leasing as company cars, whether that is Tesla or any other brand, due to the current tax savings.At one point I was looking at a 3 but couldn't make it work with my travel story, nor justify the Tesla/EV markup.
Now there's other options available, unless they don't appear on your Company Car lease plan
Eddie, is your's a company car one? I think thats where Tesla got in early getting them as the EV car of choice on list of cars
For me personally, I own my 2021 Model 3 LR (actually, to be accurate, it is actually owned by my company, but just not leased). I lease my wife's 2024 Model Y LR also via my company.
As a private used buy though, you can buy a three year old Model 3 LR in very good condition for circa £25k which will have 1 year manufacturer's warranty remaining and 5 years remaining on the battery and drivetrain.
I think a Model 3 LR at this age is tremendous value for money. 0-60mph in just over 4 seconds. 0-100mph in just over 10 seconds. Easy 250+ mile range. Minimal servicing cost. Reliable. Excellent supercharging network. Excellent tech. Cheap to 're-fill' using Octopus Intelligent tariff (2p/mile).
For a daily driver which just 'works', I think anyone who has off-street parking, doesn't mind a saloon format, and has a budget of say £20k+ should definitely consider one.
EddieSteadyGo said:
TBH new EV's make a huge amount of sense leasing as company cars, whether that is Tesla or any other brand, due to the current tax savings.
For me personally, I own my 2021 Model 3 LR (actually, to be accurate, it is actually owned by my company, but just not leased). I lease my wife's 2024 Model Y LR also via my company.
As a private used buy though, you can buy a three year old Model 3 LR in very good condition for circa £25k which will have 1 year manufacturer's warranty remaining and 5 years remaining on the battery and drivetrain.
I think a Model 3 LR at this age is tremendous value for money. 0-60mph in just over 4 seconds. 0-100mph in just over 10 seconds. Easy 250+ mile range. Minimal servicing cost. Reliable. Excellent supercharging network. Excellent tech. Cheap to 're-fill' using Octopus Intelligent tariff (2p/mile).
For a daily driver which just 'works', I think anyone who has off-street parking, doesn't mind a saloon format, and has a budget of say £20k+ should definitely consider one.
I think Hyundai and Kia are a better buy. EV6 can be had for £25k, 2 year old plus a longer warranty with those brands.For me personally, I own my 2021 Model 3 LR (actually, to be accurate, it is actually owned by my company, but just not leased). I lease my wife's 2024 Model Y LR also via my company.
As a private used buy though, you can buy a three year old Model 3 LR in very good condition for circa £25k which will have 1 year manufacturer's warranty remaining and 5 years remaining on the battery and drivetrain.
I think a Model 3 LR at this age is tremendous value for money. 0-60mph in just over 4 seconds. 0-100mph in just over 10 seconds. Easy 250+ mile range. Minimal servicing cost. Reliable. Excellent supercharging network. Excellent tech. Cheap to 're-fill' using Octopus Intelligent tariff (2p/mile).
For a daily driver which just 'works', I think anyone who has off-street parking, doesn't mind a saloon format, and has a budget of say £20k+ should definitely consider one.
Or Ioniq 5, 2 years old for £20k.
Those are better value IMO, longer warranty, car play, V2L. I personally love the V2L technology - using your battery as a mobile power station. Go to the beach and plug your George Foreman grill into the car when you are feeling hungry for example, or just to boil a kettle and make some tea. My next EV will have V2L for sure,or ideally, V2x depending on how UK moves along the V2G path.
VW are bringing out V2G capability via software update to some of their older EV's for bi-directional charging. Thats worth considering if you've got solar or even if you just want to arbitrage the night time/day time electric tarrifs and reduce electric bills at home. Something I'm keeping an eye on.
I'd be honest the S would hold more appeal, there are about 15K upwards now and look much better
For £25k I'd be buying Audi E-tron 55 S line Sportback quattro 95kWh (408 ps)
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202405089...
For £25k I'd be buying Audi E-tron 55 S line Sportback quattro 95kWh (408 ps)
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/car-details/202405089...
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