Mick Mannock and James McCudden AIr Aces - Timewatch

Mick Mannock and James McCudden AIr Aces - Timewatch

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Discussion

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,878 posts

273 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
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Anyone watch this last night on BBC 2? An excellent programme and an opportunity to reaquaint the British public with the two British air aces who came closes to matching Manfred Von Richthofen in WW1.

It's viewable at the momment on the BBC iPlayer.

Bacardi

2,235 posts

284 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
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Yes I did, very interesting!

Steamer

13,975 posts

221 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
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Yes - brilliant bit of telly!

Its amazing how fast the development of the plane moved along - but shocking those guys were sent up either without parachutes as it was believed they wouldn't try so hard to get the planes back!

DIW35

4,160 posts

208 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
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Seemed highly ironic to me that McCudden, after flying and fighting for three years, when the life expectancy of pilots was just 11 days, succumbed to a stupid accident.

Great piece of television.

FourWheelDrift

89,668 posts

292 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
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Good programme. They mentioned our top 2 aces dying in July 1918, in fact the top 3 British aces all died during that month. Mannock, McCudden and McElroy. Andrew Beauchamp-Proctor listed as 3rd RFC Ace was South African and survived the war.

They numbers of kills they registered in such short periods of time brings home the conditions and life expectancy of WWI pilots.

cardigankid

8,849 posts

220 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
quotequote all
DIW35 said:
Seemed highly ironic to me that McCudden, after flying and fighting for three years, when the life expectancy of pilots was just 11 days, succumbed to a stupid accident.

Great piece of television.
I believe it was overconfidence, the cause of a lot of accidents. I missed the programme - the Timewatch I saw was avout some medieval hall - how did that happen?

ZR1cliff

17,999 posts

257 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
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Yep, stumbled across it last night as I was flicking through the channels, I think it was on BBC2 ? Why hide such a programmes away and not have it on one of the main channels instead, as the detective work to find the crash site as well as the history element were very interesting.

Steamer

13,975 posts

221 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
DIW35 said:
Seemed highly ironic to me that McCudden, after flying and fighting for three years, when the life expectancy of pilots was just 11 days, succumbed to a stupid accident.

Great piece of television.
I believe it was overconfidence, the cause of a lot of accidents. I missed the programme - the Timewatch I saw was avout some medieval hall - how did that happen?
I thought he had not long collected his new SE5 and it just believed to be a mechanical fault.

They seemed to point Mannock's death as behavior brought on my his mental health... hardly surprising really.

cardigankid

8,849 posts

220 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
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They never knew what caused Mannock's crash, as I understand, but another member of his flight saw flames, and Mannock habitually flew with a revolver to shoot himself rather than go down in flames, and it may be that this was what he ultimately did.

It saddens me to see what has been done with the legacy these great men died for.

strudel

5,888 posts

235 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
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I missed this and couldn't record as something else was, but it's repeated again at 11pm on BBC HD for those who have it (but sadly not on bbc2).

FourWheelDrift

89,668 posts

292 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
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Simpo Two

87,159 posts

273 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
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The other great ace was Albert Ball, who was brought down by ground fire (as indeed was Richtofen).

FourWheelDrift

89,668 posts

292 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
quotequote all
Simpo Two said:
The other great ace was Albert Ball, who was brought down by ground fire (as indeed was Richtofen).
May 1917 with 44 victories at the time the highest Allied ace, if he had survived he might have been the top ace of WWI.

Tony 1234

3,465 posts

235 months

Sunday 22nd March 2009
quotequote all
Eric Mc said:
Anyone watch this last night on BBC 2? An excellent programme and an opportunity to reaquaint the British public with the two British air aces who came closes to matching Manfred Von Richthofen in WW1.

It's viewable at the momment on the BBC iPlayer.
I recorded it, but not got round to watching it so I have not read this thread.

Edited by Tony 1234 on Sunday 22 March 14:14

Eric Mc

Original Poster:

122,878 posts

273 months

Monday 23rd March 2009
quotequote all
Mannock was actually Irish (born in Co. Cork). His dad was Scottish and his mum was Engliah. His birthplace was in Cork because his father was a seargent in the Army and was based there at the time.

He is, technically, Ireland's greatest air ace but is virtually unknown in his home country.

He's not that well known over here these days either but here in Farnborough, the bitrthplace of the SE5A, a full size replica of his actual plane hangs from the roof of Princes Mead shopping centre. The plane was there for about 15 years before an information plaque was set up to explain its history to passers by.


cardigankid

8,849 posts

220 months

Monday 23rd March 2009
quotequote all
FourWheelDrift said:
Simpo Two said:
The other great ace was Albert Ball, who was brought down by ground fire (as indeed was Richtofen).
May 1917 with 44 victories at the time the highest Allied ace, if he had survived he might have been the top ace of WWI.
I thought Albert Ball was killed in a single handed dogfight against five or six Albatros Scouts, at least one of which he managed to shoot down before they got him. There is a well known painting - Captain Ball's Last Fight -depicting this, no doubt imaginatively.

Coco H

4,237 posts

245 months

Monday 23rd March 2009
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I really enjoyed it. Please to see some of the shuttleworth collection flying too

DrTre

12,955 posts

240 months

Monday 23rd March 2009
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On a vaguely related theme, there is a great article on the Telegraph at the moment about the British influence on the Top Gun School

I particularly like the following:

"Lord's expertise was so well regarded that he was asked to give lectures to US fighter pilots all along the West Coast.

While the former Royal Navy officer, who married his British wife at Miramar, said he enjoyed the film he did not recognise the characters until his wife told him that the big-talking naval fighter pilots were most accurately depicted.

Although the British did their best to fit in their humour prevailed. Rather than call signs of Viper and Maverick they came up with Dogbreath, Alien and Cholmondley"


Ozzie Osmond

21,189 posts

254 months

Monday 23rd March 2009
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IIRC they said,

Of the 14,000 allied pilots lost in WW1 8,000 were kileed in training.

The average life expectancy of pilot at the front lines was 11 days.

Very shocking statistics. At the end of the day Mannock and McCudden were just two of the poor sods who died in the muddy madness.

(E&OE)

cazzer

8,883 posts

256 months

Monday 23rd March 2009
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Everytime I catch sight of this thread I keep thinking its about 1970's wrestlers.
My brain fills in Mick McManus.