Shoot to Kill - Terror on the Tube

Shoot to Kill - Terror on the Tube

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240Cup

Original Poster:

658 posts

197 months

Monday 11th November
quotequote all
Ooufff. Very graphic and detailed account by one of the two armed officers in the mistaken identity case of De Menezes.

Part two tonight

cuprabob

15,699 posts

221 months

Monday 11th November
quotequote all
Both episodes are available on the CH4 Player. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Randy Winkman

17,715 posts

196 months

Monday 11th November
quotequote all
Just watched the first one. To early to give any view on the rights and wrongs but I do feel sympathy for the copper. Interesting that Tony Blair was in it but only right at the start. I assume he'll be in the second one more.

cuprabob

15,699 posts

221 months

Monday 11th November
quotequote all
Just watched both episodes and it's worth watching.

Randy Winkman

17,715 posts

196 months

Tuesday 12th November
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I've watched the second one now.

From what was shown in the programme it does seem reasonable to me that no single officer was prosecuted. It just seems to have been a muddle of poor communication from the point Jean Charles De Menezes left his flat. And all in the context of the tension of the previous bombings and failed bombings.

In the clips, the family were rightly really upset and it's also understandable that they focused on the firearms officers. It was nice though that the final thing from a family member was the fella being more empathetic and pointing out that punishing someone wouldn't change things.

I noted that the TV producer said he still speaks to people that think that De Menezes acted suspiciously and brought it on himself. So for what it's worth, I'll use this post to say again that he didn't. All of that was erroneously reported. It was a firearms officer that ran through the tube station and vaulted a barrier and there was also a perfectly reasonable explanation as to why De Menezes got off a bus and then got back on the same one.



hondajack85

275 posts

6 months

Tuesday 12th November
quotequote all
Dubious show that seems to have been made for the current period in history where apparently you can cause any amount of deaths you like and its ok.
What fantasy do all there gun cops play in their heads? His daily life since retiring seems to be the one on rambo and mark walberg films,carrying a huge log back to the cabin lol.
A life probably all made up like his evidence.

Randy Winkman

17,715 posts

196 months

Tuesday 12th November
quotequote all
hondajack85 said:
Dubious show that seems to have been made for the current period in history where apparently you can cause any amount of deaths you like and its ok.
What fantasy do all there gun cops play in their heads? His daily life since retiring seems to be the one on rambo and mark walberg films,carrying a huge log back to the cabin lol.
A life probably all made up like his evidence.
On the basis it was 19 years ago, when was it different?

SteBrown91

2,570 posts

136 months

Tuesday 12th November
quotequote all
hondajack85 said:
Dubious show that seems to have been made for the current period in history where apparently you can cause any amount of deaths you like and its ok.
What fantasy do all there gun cops play in their heads? His daily life since retiring seems to be the one on rambo and mark walberg films,carrying a huge log back to the cabin lol.
A life probably all made up like his evidence.
How many time have you been made to confront a believed terrorist at close range just days after London has been attacked twice with deadly bombs?

Randy Winkman

17,715 posts

196 months

Tuesday 12th November
quotequote all
Just remembered the guy in the first episode who confronted the failed bomber on the tube. A brave fella.

Alickadoo

2,295 posts

30 months

Tuesday 12th November
quotequote all
Why has the policeman allowed his name and photo to be published?

Armitage.Shanks

2,439 posts

92 months

Tuesday 12th November
quotequote all
Alickadoo said:
Why has the policeman allowed his name and photo to be published?
He's retired from the force, so it's up to him.

cuprabob

15,699 posts

221 months

Wednesday 13th November
quotequote all
Armitage.Shanks said:
Alickadoo said:
Why has the policeman allowed his name and photo to be published?
He's retired from the force, so it's up to him.
Indeed, it was his choice. The other policeman "C2" remains anonymous.

cuprabob

15,699 posts

221 months

Wednesday 13th November
quotequote all
Randy Winkman said:
Just remembered the guy in the first episode who confronted the failed bomber on the tube. A brave fella.
Yes, he was a fireman. How frustrated was he when he told the driver to keep the doors closed to contain the "bomber" and the doors opened and it allowed him to escape.

CHLEMCBC

407 posts

24 months

Wednesday 13th November
quotequote all
hondajack85 said:
Dubious show that seems to have been made for the current period in history where apparently you can cause any amount of deaths you like and its ok.
What fantasy do all there gun cops play in their heads? His daily life since retiring seems to be the one on rambo and mark walberg films,carrying a huge log back to the cabin lol.
A life probably all made up like his evidence.
*number. Any number of deaths.

Also, what on earth are you on about?

stukno

22 posts

57 months

Wednesday 13th November
quotequote all
The officers who were directed to engage C dM were working under the impression that he was a suicide bomb carrier capable of converting all in the vicinity into heat light and noise in a split second.

There were undoubted failings in the command and control of the operation and assumptions made by the surveillance officer which directly led to the death of an innocent man but I have always thought that the fireams officers showed complete bravery in risking their own lives to remove the danger of another suicide bombing.

ADJimbo

465 posts

193 months

Wednesday 13th November
quotequote all
One thing that I took away from watching both of the episodes which shocked me to the core…

Cressida Dick was in Operational Command of the ill-fated operwtion. Another c**k up on her watch where somebody lost their life because of her incompetence. Everything Cressida has ever touched has gone pear-shaped and yet after each and every command and leadership failing, she has been promoted - even to the position of Commissioner.

It’s quite staggering when you think about it. She must be Teflon-Coated.

That aside, I agree with the decision not to prosecute individual officers for simply doing their jobs. This was a MET leadership failing and not attributable to the Constables who let’s face it, put themselves in a situation many of us would run away from.


Randy Winkman

17,715 posts

196 months

Wednesday 13th November
quotequote all
stukno said:
The officers who were directed to engage C dM were working under the impression that he was a suicide bomb carrier capable of converting all in the vicinity into heat light and noise in a split second.

There were undoubted failings in the command and control of the operation and assumptions made by the surveillance officer which directly led to the death of an innocent man but I have always thought that the fireams officers showed complete bravery in risking their own lives to remove the danger of another suicide bombing.
I agree. It was a lack of clarity between "He is definitely the suspect" and "He is definitely the guy positively identified as being involved in the previous failed bombings".

Alickadoo

2,295 posts

30 months

Wednesday 13th November
quotequote all
cuprabob said:
Armitage.Shanks said:
Alickadoo said:
Why has the policeman allowed his name and photo to be published?
He's retired from the force, so it's up to him.
Indeed, it was his choice. The other policeman "C2" remains anonymous.
I meant.

Why would you want to allow your name and likeness to be published?

I wouldn't.

HTP99

23,288 posts

147 months

Wednesday 13th November
quotequote all
Alickadoo said:
cuprabob said:
Armitage.Shanks said:
Alickadoo said:
Why has the policeman allowed his name and photo to be published?
He's retired from the force, so it's up to him.
Indeed, it was his choice. The other policeman "C2" remains anonymous.
I meant.

Why would you want to allow your name and likeness to be published?

I wouldn't.
Maybe he needed to get it off his chest, a relief for him.

Jim H

1,133 posts

196 months

Wednesday 13th November
quotequote all
ADJimbo said:
One thing that I took away from watching both of the episodes which shocked me to the core…

Cressida Dick was in Operational Command of the ill-fated operwtion. Another c**k up on her watch where somebody lost their life because of her incompetence. Everything Cressida has ever touched has gone pear-shaped and yet after each and every command and leadership failing, she has been promoted - even to the position of Commissioner.

It’s quite staggering when you think about it. She must be Teflon-Coated.

That aside, I agree with the decision not to prosecute individual officers for simply doing their jobs. This was a MET leadership failing and not attributable to the Constables who let’s face it, put themselves in a situation many of us would run away from.
Jimbo, after watching this.

These were my thoughts entirely relating to Cressida Dick. I don’t think anyone employed in law enforcement (higher echelons) has ever possessed such amazing qualities of the reverse Midas touch. Yet nothing stuck and she kept on climbing totally unhindered.

It beggars belief.

My other takeaway was the FO officer explaining that in the build up to the operation they had been all instructed to change there ammunition in their weapons to 28 grain dum dum rounds (from regular).

So the level of detail in planning was clearly present in the preparation, yet soon seem to loose a lot of focus and direction afterwards. I don’t think anyone should have been charged though.