Petrol v Electric

[Saleen836]

Wednesday 4th Sept @ 8pm ch5
'Putting electric vehicles and petrol cars to the test, comparing them and incovering surprising benefits and unexpected pitfalls, from cost to performance'

I wonder if it will be biased

[Mammasaid]

It's hardly going to be the Watergate Enquiry is it?

If it offends you so much, don't watch it.

[SteBrown91]

^^ this - I was a bit of a sceptic but have gone to the dark side and really enjoying the experience. Yes I get a ribbing and there will be limitations and annoyances like public charging and trying not to create a trip hazard when I get home with the cable, but I think it’s worth it for me.

But for some people petrol or diesel either suits them better or they prefer it and that’s perfectly fine. If I had to rely on public charging daily/regularly I don’t think I would have gone the EV route, but I don’t have to so I have.

It’s just a classic channel 5 low brow program to attract the gammons.

[Kamov]

Any mention of African slave children used to mine for cobalt which is increasing as demand requires.
African kids being maimed and killed for smug people to waft around claiming to save the planet.
Any mention of the need to increase Electricity generation and the carbon cost of that?
Or that the tyres are still rubber or that the brake pads (biggest cause of pollution in London) are still the same as normal cars?

No i'll bet not....
Yeah yeah, conspiracy nut job...........

[nicanary]

Does anyone on here know how far the engineers have got with developing synthetic petrol ? I heard some time ago about Porsche going down that lane, but nothing since. Both sides managed it in WW2 , so I can't see why it can't be done even for today's high performance motors. Rather that than an EV.

[otolith]

nicanary said:

Does anyone on here know how far the engineers have got with developing synthetic petrol ? I heard some time ago about Porsche going down that lane, but nothing since. Both sides managed it in WW2 , so I can't see why it can't be done even for today's high performance motors. Rather that than an EV.

It can be done. It is being done. It's very energy inefficient, and hence expensive, and always will be. I think too much so to support eventual mass usage and the distribution network that would make viable, so more likely to be something you have delivered to run your classic on than a thing for your new daily driver.

[P-Jay]

nicanary said:

Does anyone on here know how far the engineers have got with developing synthetic petrol ? I heard some time ago about Porsche going down that lane, but nothing since. Both sides managed it in WW2 , so I can't see why it can't be done even for today's high performance motors. Rather that than an EV.

Last I read sustainable / synthetic petrol was a reality, but it's very expensive and very energy inefficient, so it creates more carbon at the power station as well as carbon from the exhaust. Worst of both worlds really.

I have to admit, I don't think synthetic petrol is a viable solution, Porsche threw a few million at it (pennies relatively) as a way to try to leverage a delay in the EU ICE ban.

[richhead]

nicanary said:

Does anyone on here know how far the engineers have got with developing synthetic petrol ? I heard some time ago about Porsche going down that lane, but nothing since. Both sides managed it in WW2 , so I can't see why it can't be done even for today's high performance motors. Rather that than an EV.

Its already being used, its used alot in motor racing, the whole wec paddock uses fuel made from waste from wine making, so drink more wine people your saving the planet

It is however frighteningly expensive to make, but getting cheaper.
Not sure how practical it would be for normal use tho.

[SteBrown91]

Yeah sustainable/e-fuels I think will be reserved for keeping nice super cars/classics on the road, rather than as an alternative mass market fuel.

[Donbot]

Switched it off after 5 minutes. The standard of some programs on TV really are ste.

[Philip-38q0d]

Kamov said:

Any mention of African slave children used to mine for cobalt which is increasing as demand requires.
African kids being maimed and killed for smug people to waft around claiming to save the planet.
Any mention of the need to increase Electricity generation and the carbon cost of that?
Or that the tyres are still rubber or that the brake pads (biggest cause of pollution in London) are still the same as normal cars?

No i'll bet not....
Yeah yeah, conspiracy nut job...........

Or the fact that most of the cobalt mined has been used to refine fossil fuels, or that phone, tablet, laptop batteries all use it, or the fact the the UK’s electrical generation capacity is more than adequate or that EVs barely use their brake pads.
I don’t remember anybody giving a st about African children mining cobalt before EVs came along.

[Tycho]

Donbot said:

Switched it off after 5 minutes. The standard of some programs on TV really are ste.

It was terrible. The first 'test' started with 25% to force the EV to have to charge. If you did the journey in real life then you'd have 100% for the journey and not have to fill up. That is one of the best things about EVs, you have a full tank every day if you want to.

[Kamov]

Philip-38q0d said:

Kamov said:

Any mention of African slave children used to mine for cobalt which is increasing as demand requires.
African kids being maimed and killed for smug people to waft around claiming to save the planet.
Any mention of the need to increase Electricity generation and the carbon cost of that?
Or that the tyres are still rubber or that the brake pads (biggest cause of pollution in London) are still the same as normal cars?

No i'll bet not....
Yeah yeah, conspiracy nut job...........

Or the fact that most of the cobalt mined has been used to refine fossil fuels, or that phone, tablet, laptop batteries all use it, or the fact the the UK’s electrical generation capacity is more than adequate or that EVs barely use their brake pads.
I don’t remember anybody giving a st about African children mining cobalt before EVs came along.

Big difference between my phone and your EV, I don't claim to be saving the planet with my phone.
The figures for the increase in cobalt mining and EV's is alarming, but main stream media doesn't care because its black kids in Africa and we have to all pretend we can save the planet, when the truth is we are trying to save humanity, the planet will do just fine if we all effed off tomorrow in a mass suicide.
Its pure utter human arrogance as usual.
The planet has been in far far worse states, yes we couldn't live on it, but so what?
Its all about raping the planet then raping it some more but this pretending its for good..... ever seen a lithium mine? The size of them, we need many more, taking land off people, forced land take overs to mine for more stuff to use in this new 'Green energy'...what an utter joke...

[vladcjelli]

Kamov said:

Big difference between my phone and your EV, I don't claim to be saving the planet with my phone.
The figures for the increase in cobalt mining and EV's is alarming, but main stream media doesn't care because its black kids in Africa and we have to all pretend we can save the planet, when the truth is we are trying to save humanity, the planet will do just fine if we all effed off tomorrow in a mass suicide.
Its pure utter human arrogance as usual.
The planet has been in far far worse states, yes we couldn't live on it, but so what?
Its all about raping the planet then raping it some more but this pretending its for good..... ever seen a lithium mine? The size of them, we need many more, taking land off people, forced land take overs to mine for more stuff to use in this new 'Green energy'...what an utter joke...

Thank the sweet baby Jesus nothing bad ever happened in the pursuit of oil…

[LM240]

Donbot said:

Switched it off after 5 minutes. The standard of some programs on TV really are ste.

Not sure I even got to 5 mins!

The talking heads is immediate turn off and it didn’t have the feel of being anyway informative.

[Donbot]

Tycho said:

Donbot said:

Switched it off after 5 minutes. The standard of some programs on TV really are ste.

It was terrible. The first 'test' started with 25% to force the EV to have to charge. If you did the journey in real life then you'd have 100% for the journey and not have to fill up. That is one of the best things about EVs, you have a full tank every day if you want to.

Yeah, the first 'test' is where I got to. Though I was already bored from the 5 minutes of pointless waffling.

[StevieBee]

Kamov said:

Big difference between my phone and your EV, I don't claim to be saving the planet with my phone.
The figures for the increase in cobalt mining and EV's is alarming, but main stream media doesn't care because its black kids in Africa and we have to all pretend we can save the planet, when the truth is we are trying to save humanity, the planet will do just fine if we all effed off tomorrow in a mass suicide.
Its pure utter human arrogance as usual.
The planet has been in far far worse states, yes we couldn't live on it, but so what?
Its all about raping the planet then raping it some more but this pretending its for good..... ever seen a lithium mine? The size of them, we need many more, taking land off people, forced land take overs to mine for more stuff to use in this new 'Green energy'...what an utter joke...

Hopefully the programme will explain that all of these things are irrelevant to the intent of EVs, emphasising their purpose to reduce dependency on a finite resource that has around 50 years of supply left and that whilst emissions are still created, it's easier to minimise emissions from a handful of power stations than it is from many millions of cars.

There's not a single ad campaign promoting EVs as a planet-saving purchase but of course this doesn't prevent the pious from claiming this once purchased..... or the mis-informed espousing non relevant counter arguments for their existence

[Richard-D]

otolith said:

nicanary said:

Does anyone on here know how far the engineers have got with developing synthetic petrol ? I heard some time ago about Porsche going down that lane, but nothing since. Both sides managed it in WW2 , so I can't see why it can't be done even for today's high performance motors. Rather that than an EV.

It can be done. It is being done. It's very energy inefficient, and hence expensive, and always will be. I think too much so to support eventual mass usage and the distribution network that would make viable, so more likely to be something you have delivered to run your classic on than a thing for your new daily driver.

That's an odd outlook. If people took this stance on EVs certain individuals on here would immediately 'lose their minds' and ensure the thread descended into the usual nonsense. EVs didn't stop at lead acid batteries, they improved.

I believe it's fair to say that synthetic fuels are currently not viable. To categorically state that they never will be is to be as closed minded/dismissive as the 'all EV's are milk floats' crowd.

Also couldn't get through the first few minutes.

[otolith]

Richard-D said:

otolith said:

nicanary said:

Does anyone on here know how far the engineers have got with developing synthetic petrol ? I heard some time ago about Porsche going down that lane, but nothing since. Both sides managed it in WW2 , so I can't see why it can't be done even for today's high performance motors. Rather that than an EV.

It can be done. It is being done. It's very energy inefficient, and hence expensive, and always will be. I think too much so to support eventual mass usage and the distribution network that would make viable, so more likely to be something you have delivered to run your classic on than a thing for your new daily driver.

That's an odd outlook. If people took this stance on EVs certain individuals on here would immediately 'lose their minds' and ensure the thread descended into the usual nonsense. EVs didn't stop at lead acid batteries, they improved.

I believe it's fair to say that synthetic fuels are currently not viable. To categorically state that they never will be is to be as closed minded/dismissive as the 'all EV's are milk floats' crowd.

Also couldn't get through the first few minutes.

Technological advances are likely. Changes to the laws of thermodynamics not so much.

You start with electricity.

You use it to crack water to get hydrogen - you have already lost some energy, if you burn the hydrogen now you won't get back as much energy as it took to make it.

You then react the hydrogen with carbon dioxide to get methanol (and water). 3 H2 give you one CH3OH. You've lost some energy there. If you burn 3 moles of H2 you get 857kJ of energy. If you burn 1 mole of methanol, you get 726kJ. That's about 15% less than you put in.

You then feed the methanol into a methanol to gasoline process, which gives you a liquid fuel made up of a mixture of paraffins, olefins, aromatics, etc. Burning any of these will liberate less energy than burning the amount of methanol used to make them. You've lost some more energy.

You transport that to a petrol station, pump it into a car, and burn it. Petrol engines, even really efficient ones in hybrids, are not terribly efficient. So this then happens:



Petrol engine technology can improve on that 20% figure. Road cars peak at about 35% and F1 cars at a little over 50% with all of their energy recovery systems, but those are peaks, not averages. An electric car running a very advanced petrol motor at constant rpm as a generator and with all the tricks thrown at it might only waste half of the energy poured into it.

Multiply all those losses between grid electricity and wheels turning together, and ask how could possibly end up beating the ~90% that a current battery car gets. Most of those losses aren't things you can overcome through engineering, they are fundamental physics and chemistry.

You are always going to have to put significantly more energy into the system to make hydrogen, turn it into methanol, turn it into petrol, burn it in an engine, and turn the wheels, than if you just put the energy into a battery and turn the wheels with an electric motor. You lose some at every step in the process, and there are hard theoretical limits to the amount of efficiency you can engineer.

It is always going to cost significantly more to build and operate an electrolysis plant and a hydrogen to petrol operation and a distribution and retail network than it costs to run a plug socket.

Edited by otolith on Thursday 5th September 11:20

[Richard-D]

Your error is in assuming the current method and product is the only possibility. I had previously thought your comment may have been a 'slip of the tongue'. Your clarification shows that you really are that biased.