Mr Bates vs The Post Office
Discussion
eliot said:
nfsp distancing themselves from him:
https://nfsp.org.uk/news/view?name=statement-from-...
Good...IIRC they had already refused to assist him with legal representation at the hearing.........no prizes for guessing why.https://nfsp.org.uk/news/view?name=statement-from-...
I thought he was a bit of a conundrum, on the one hand he was determined to give his version of events and seemed convinced that he had acted in the best interests of the SPMs - he said he'd ignored advice to just apologise and wanted to tell the truth and not just say "I don't recall".
It would have been much easier for him to follow what other people have done, saying 'I don't recall....well with hindsight etc' but he stuck to telling it as how he saw it (even offering to come back if they ran out of time due to his lengthy answers !)
On the other hand he couldn't seem to contemplate that some of the SPMs might be actually be innocent as he had anecdotal evidence of people stealing from the PO in the past.
I got the impression he believed everything he was saying - is this an example of cognitive dissonance, he believed that as there were billions of successful Horizon transactions and that the majority of users were unaffected, he couldn't square this with some SPMs being catastrophically affected by errors in the system.
It would have been much easier for him to follow what other people have done, saying 'I don't recall....well with hindsight etc' but he stuck to telling it as how he saw it (even offering to come back if they ran out of time due to his lengthy answers !)
On the other hand he couldn't seem to contemplate that some of the SPMs might be actually be innocent as he had anecdotal evidence of people stealing from the PO in the past.
I got the impression he believed everything he was saying - is this an example of cognitive dissonance, he believed that as there were billions of successful Horizon transactions and that the majority of users were unaffected, he couldn't square this with some SPMs being catastrophically affected by errors in the system.
AndyF2020 said:
I thought he was a bit of a conundrum, on the one hand he was determined to give his version of events and seemed convinced that he had acted in the best interests of the SPMs - he said he'd ignored advice to just apologise and wanted to tell the truth and not just say "I don't recall".
It would have been much easier for him to follow what other people have done, saying 'I don't recall....well with hindsight etc' but he stuck to telling it as how he saw it (even offering to come back if they ran out of time due to his lengthy answers !)
On the other hand he couldn't seem to contemplate that some of the SPMs might be actually be innocent as he had anecdotal evidence of people stealing from the PO in the past.
I got the impression he believed everything he was saying - is this an example of cognitive dissonance, he believed that as there were billions of successful Horizon transactions and that the majority of users were unaffected, he couldn't square this with some SPMs being catastrophically affected by errors in the system.
Some valiant efforts at defending him ITT but do come along.... He was never going to be short of wonga if he toed the PO line. He was looking after number 1 whilst eliminating the possibility of having to do any actual work. It would have been much easier for him to follow what other people have done, saying 'I don't recall....well with hindsight etc' but he stuck to telling it as how he saw it (even offering to come back if they ran out of time due to his lengthy answers !)
On the other hand he couldn't seem to contemplate that some of the SPMs might be actually be innocent as he had anecdotal evidence of people stealing from the PO in the past.
I got the impression he believed everything he was saying - is this an example of cognitive dissonance, he believed that as there were billions of successful Horizon transactions and that the majority of users were unaffected, he couldn't square this with some SPMs being catastrophically affected by errors in the system.
AndyF2020 said:
I thought he was a bit of a conundrum, on the one hand he was determined to give his version of events and seemed convinced that he had acted in the best interests of the SPMs - he said he'd ignored advice to just apologise and wanted to tell the truth and not just say "I don't recall".
It would have been much easier for him to follow what other people have done, saying 'I don't recall....well with hindsight etc' but he stuck to telling it as how he saw it (even offering to come back if they ran out of time due to his lengthy answers !)
On the other hand he couldn't seem to contemplate that some of the SPMs might be actually be innocent as he had anecdotal evidence of people stealing from the PO in the past.
I got the impression he believed everything he was saying - is this an example of cognitive dissonance, he believed that as there were billions of successful Horizon transactions and that the majority of users were unaffected, he couldn't square this with some SPMs being catastrophically affected by errors in the system.
Just for completeness, do we actually have prima facie evidence that any SPM losses were actually caused by Horizon? That’s not why the convictions are unsafe…It would have been much easier for him to follow what other people have done, saying 'I don't recall....well with hindsight etc' but he stuck to telling it as how he saw it (even offering to come back if they ran out of time due to his lengthy answers !)
On the other hand he couldn't seem to contemplate that some of the SPMs might be actually be innocent as he had anecdotal evidence of people stealing from the PO in the past.
I got the impression he believed everything he was saying - is this an example of cognitive dissonance, he believed that as there were billions of successful Horizon transactions and that the majority of users were unaffected, he couldn't square this with some SPMs being catastrophically affected by errors in the system.
Aphrabehn said:
Some valiant efforts at defending him ITT but do come along.... He was never going to be short of wonga if he toed the PO line. He was looking after number 1 whilst eliminating the possibility of having to do any actual work.
I'm not defending him, just trying to understand how he could hold such opposing positions at the same time and why he was so adamant that he had done the right thing.
He could have just done what a lot of the other witnesses have done and said 'I don't recall' but he genuinely didn't think he had done anything wrong, that's what I was puzzled by.
Wills2 said:
skwdenyer said:
Just for completeness, do we actually have prima facie evidence that any SPM losses were actually caused by Horizon? That’s not why the convictions are unsafe…
Paula is that you? I'm interested to hear what Gareth Jenkins says on this subject.
skwdenyer said:
AndyF2020 said:
I thought he was a bit of a conundrum, on the one hand he was determined to give his version of events and seemed convinced that he had acted in the best interests of the SPMs - he said he'd ignored advice to just apologise and wanted to tell the truth and not just say "I don't recall".
It would have been much easier for him to follow what other people have done, saying 'I don't recall....well with hindsight etc' but he stuck to telling it as how he saw it (even offering to come back if they ran out of time due to his lengthy answers !)
On the other hand he couldn't seem to contemplate that some of the SPMs might be actually be innocent as he had anecdotal evidence of people stealing from the PO in the past.
I got the impression he believed everything he was saying - is this an example of cognitive dissonance, he believed that as there were billions of successful Horizon transactions and that the majority of users were unaffected, he couldn't square this with some SPMs being catastrophically affected by errors in the system.
Just for completeness, do we actually have prima facie evidence that any SPM losses were actually caused by Horizon? That’s not why the convictions are unsafe…It would have been much easier for him to follow what other people have done, saying 'I don't recall....well with hindsight etc' but he stuck to telling it as how he saw it (even offering to come back if they ran out of time due to his lengthy answers !)
On the other hand he couldn't seem to contemplate that some of the SPMs might be actually be innocent as he had anecdotal evidence of people stealing from the PO in the past.
I got the impression he believed everything he was saying - is this an example of cognitive dissonance, he believed that as there were billions of successful Horizon transactions and that the majority of users were unaffected, he couldn't square this with some SPMs being catastrophically affected by errors in the system.
Horizon were able to access each SPM's systems without them knowing. Since 1995, I have never worked on a industry specific system which allowed that.
We kicked into touch, a New Zealand software firm which wanted to allow that to take place - "for our own good" - and told them where to go.
Please wake up, this is real and has horrific consequences for the victims.
skwdenyer said:
Just for completeness, do we actually have prima facie evidence that any SPM losses were actually caused by Horizon? That’s not why the convictions are unsafe…
Let's start with the fact that it is specifically those cases that were based on Horizon evidence (without corroboration) that were being overturned on appeal. Secondly, have you read the Horizon Issues Judgement? https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/1...
eliot said:
nfsp distancing themselves from him:
https://nfsp.org.uk/news/view?name=statement-from-...
Probably desperate not to lose any more members. https://nfsp.org.uk/news/view?name=statement-from-...
CharlesElliott said:
skwdenyer said:
Just for completeness, do we actually have prima facie evidence that any SPM losses were actually caused by Horizon? That’s not why the convictions are unsafe…
Let's start with the fact that it is specifically those cases that were based on Horizon evidence (without corroboration) that were being overturned on appeal. Secondly, have you read the Horizon Issues Judgement? https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/1...
That’s entirely separate from whether POL covered up bugs, withheld evidence, behaved both abominably and in a cavalier fashion with prosecutions, and so on.
That doesn’t mean I believe Horizon didn’t cause any losses. It was a genuine question. I’m guessing the answer to my question is no, otherwise there wouldn’t still now be a debate about suspense accounts.
How can it be possible that proper forensic accountants haven’t been given full access to every piece of data to try to pin this down?
Well surprise, surprise. "The amount of money the Post Office took from subpostmasters who were wrongly blamed for accounting shortfalls may never be known due to “system limitations”."
It's OK though, Minister Kevin Hollinrake is on the case - https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366575372/Sums...
It seems they have no idea what was taken ? However it does state -"...... This money, which ultimately found itself in the Post Office profit and loss account, ....."
It's OK though, Minister Kevin Hollinrake is on the case - https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366575372/Sums...
It seems they have no idea what was taken ? However it does state -"...... This money, which ultimately found itself in the Post Office profit and loss account, ....."
Blib said:
Wasn't that exactly what Second Sight were attempting to do, before they got fired?
I don't believe SS were ever given the authority or access to access all of POL's systems. They didn't even get back-end access into Horizon, nor did they ever seem to ask for it. Their terms of reference were never that broad.Maxdecel said:
Well surprise, surprise. "The amount of money the Post Office took from subpostmasters who were wrongly blamed for accounting shortfalls may never be known due to “system limitations”."
It's OK though, Minister Kevin Hollinrake is on the case - https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366575372/Sums...
It seems they have no idea what was taken ? However it does state -"...... This money, which ultimately found itself in the Post Office profit and loss account, ....."
I think that's been generally known for a long time. It's nothing new.It's OK though, Minister Kevin Hollinrake is on the case - https://www.computerweekly.com/news/366575372/Sums...
It seems they have no idea what was taken ? However it does state -"...... This money, which ultimately found itself in the Post Office profit and loss account, ....."
The whole disgusting issue affecting SPMs is just so unbelievable that I have to keep reminding myself that this is not a novel, or film, where every participant has to be a particularly nasty piece of work with no compassion, no understanding, no common sense, no ability to ever recall anything etc etc.
It has all been appalling and everyone involved should feel utterly ashamed of themselves for the rest of their lives.
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