Harry's Garage - YouTube

[SP_]

Truckosaurus said:

I think you can get away with an i4 engine in a small lightweight sports car (MX5, Elise, A110, etc) but it just seems wrong in something more exotic.

The Porsche 718 gets a pass for at least being a flat-4.

I'd be more accepting of a 3-cylinder as that would sound better (back to the Lotus/Geely connections, the 1.5 petrol 3-cyl in my Mother's Volvo seems nice).

For me the 718 does not get a pass. It sounds crap, even in GTS form.

[Leithen]

E90_M3Ross said:

Leithen said:

Doesn't Alfa have a rather rich history of V6's? Nothing available from them?

V6 from the Quadrifoglio?

Wikipedia said:

The V6 production ended in 2005 at Alfa Romeo Arese Plant;[36] a stock of five thousand were built, to be used in Lancia Thesis, Alfa 166 and Alfa GT models.[37] The engine was replaced in the 159 and Brera by a new 3.2 L V6 unit combining a General Motors-designed engine block with Alfa Romeo cylinder heads and induction. British automotive engineering company Cosworth was keen to buy assembly lines of the Alfa Romeo V6 engine, but the Italian company did not want to sell it.[38] The last version of 3.2 L engine was Euro4 compliant, so it would have been possible to produce it a couple of years more.[39] The engine's designer Giuseppe Busso died within a couple of days after the last engine was produced in Arese.[40]

Since 2015, Fiat Powertrain manufactures the all-new 690T, Ferrari-derived 90° V6 twin-turbo engine for the Giulia Quadrifoglio, Stelvio Quadrifoglio and Giulia GTA/GTA-m models.

Imagine if Cosworth had managed to buy the design and the production line....

[cerb4.5lee]

I really enjoyed the McLaren video, and it looks a lovely car for sure I reckon. The colour is really nice too.

[Olivera]

ArgonautX said:

It just needs a more durable gearbox to shine(both in FI or naturally aspirated versions)

Again, every single piece of evidence says the engine struggles to rev much past 7000rpm, and the gearbox is not the limiting factor. I think you've lost the plot.

[paralla]

Olivera said:

ArgonautX said:

It just needs a more durable gearbox to shine(both in FI or naturally aspirated versions)

Again, every single piece of evidence says the engine struggles to rev much past 7000rpm, and the gearbox is not the limiting factor. I think you've lost the plot.

But if it was heavily modified by a tuner, installed the other way around and connected to a different gearbox it might be great. Totally not the engines problem, there’s nothing wrong with it.

[ArgonautX]

Olivera said:

Again, every single piece of evidence says the engine struggles to rev much past 7000rpm, and the gearbox is not the limiting factor. I think you've lost the plot.

gearbox is the limiting factor, that's why Lotus never went past 430 hp and around 450 Nm on the Evora/Exige. That is gearbox limits. With a more durable gearbox, 2GR can output much more in FI setups.
As to rpm limits, it is not a problem as long as you're able to invest in some improved engine internals.

[Forester1965]

ArgonautX said:

gearbox is the limiting factor, that's why Lotus never went past 430 hp and around 450 Nm on the Evora/Exige. That is gearbox limits. With a more durable gearbox, 2GR can output much more in FI setups.
As to rpm limits, it is not a problem as long as you're able to invest in some improved engine internals.

You could pretty much say the same about any engine.

What Lotus want to do with it comes down to emissions, reliability, marketing placement and of course cost. The spec figures aren't through lack of ability on either the company or engine.

[otolith]

I think you make a decision to either build a naturally aspirated rev monster or bolt on a supercharger, with the latter usually being the cheaper option. Having taken the forced induction route, more torque is easier than more revs if you want more power.

[PinkHouse]

sisu said:

InformationSuperHighway said:

Doofus said:

sisu said:

"Hawk Thau"

Forgive me. I've tried, but I have no clue what this means.

I don’t know if the use of it in a Harry M thread is impressive or reflection of our society

To be fair it was found whilst looking at old cars...

It's a useful technique for when you run out of WD 40 in the garage and need to get something unstuck

[jmcvaughn]

Olivera said:

Again, every single piece of evidence says the engine struggles to rev much past 7000rpm, and the gearbox is not the limiting factor. I think you've lost the plot.

To add more fuel to the fire...

Not quite sure what the argument is here, are you counting modified engines or not? You've referenced both built motors from Jubu (therefore counting modifications in the above statement, which therefore makes it simply incorrect) and the stock motor—ArgonautX has already stated why, stock valvetrain simply isn't up to it.

There are plenty of modified 2GR-FEs that rev up to and beyond 8k, and a number of Exiges that do, e.g. https://forums.thelotusforums.com/topic/97689-hope...

Some (though few) even up to 9k. Regardless, I wouldn't accuse somebody of having lost the plot if they're categorically correct?

Not quite sure what the relevance is though: an engine's character is not purely defined by how fast it spins, and a modified 2GR-FE is not what they're putting in any Exige/Evora/Emira.

The gearbox is a limiting factor in the sense that Aisin rate it for around 450Nm. Lotus likely won't want to invest a huge amount into testing the limits (nor manufacturing stronger gearsets, remember that Lotus use custom 3rd–6th IIRC) if they deem around 450Nm to be enough. The reality is that there are tons of cars running Komo-Tec's 460/475 kits (so around 520Nm in reality) without issues. Again...modified with hardened gearsets, you can probably do quite a bit more (and there are some cars that do) but that's purely speculative.

Anyhow...

Noise, gear ratios and weight, and flywheel mass are all external things that significantly impact an engine's perceived "character" (unless we are going to start comparing everything to older 911s and their lovely chattery idle). Fundamentally, power delivery is the most obvious factor that can be assessed independently. I've not driven a GT4 for example, but it seems to offer similar, linear power delivery. The differences? More intake noise in a lighter car than the Emira probably help make it more exciting. Nobody accuses that of being devoid of character, yet to me they sound incredibly synthetic.

Most here have probably not driven a louder, lighter and faster Exige or an Evora. The engine is certainly not devoid of character in either of those cars. Personally, I don't give two hoots about where an engine is sourced from, I only care about the end result.

Regardless, the Emira probably isn't helped by being marketed as a sports car when it is perhaps closer to a GT car. Nothing about it seems particularly exciting as a package in my eyes.

Edited by jmcvaughn on Tuesday 25th June 17:13

[RichardHMorris]

E90_M3Ross said:

I think it's fair to say that most supercars have been driven hard. He'll get a warranty so what exactly are you worried about RE being driven hard? Would you never buy a car that's been on track?

The problem with a manufacturer's car is that they'll have been caned and misused by journos, more so than a trackday regular owner. And that's the big unknown, whereas Harry knows exactly how that Emira was treated.

[M4SER]

Wow, lots of good comments on here regarding the Lotus/McLaren swap.

Re reasons why I decided to sell Emira, it was more falling out of love with Lotus than issues with the car itself. I should have explained this better in the video.

I did enjoy driving the Emira, I liked the supercharged V6 as well, but I came to the conclusion the drive experience wasn’t as up to date as the design of the car was and that niggled me in a brand new car.

I had hoped the i4 would feel more on the pace but it was handicapped by the hopeless gearbox, as well as price. In the end, I just decided to move on and started looking at McLarens, as I’d always enjoyed driving them. I’m very happy with the 650S I ended up with, which you’ll find more on in a future video..

[ArgonautX]

RichardHMorris said:

The problem with a manufacturer's car is that they'll have been caned and misused by journos, more so than a trackday regular owner. And that's the big unknown, whereas Harry knows exactly how that Emira was treated.

do not think that this particular 650S MSO has been used primarily by journos, it seems to me it was a sort of company car and used for shows and such.

[jmcvaughn]

M4SER said:

Wow, lots of good comments on here regarding the Lotus/McLaren swap.

Re reasons why I decided to sell Emira, it was more falling out of love with Lotus than issues with the car itself. I should have explained this better in the video.

I did enjoy driving the Emira, I liked the supercharged V6 as well, but I came to the conclusion the drive experience wasn’t as up to date as the design of the car was and that niggled me in a brand new car.

I had hoped the i4 would feel more on the pace but it was handicapped by the hopeless gearbox, as well as price. In the end, I just decided to move on and started looking at McLarens, as I’d always enjoyed driving them. I’m very happy with the 650S I ended up with, which you’ll find more on in a future video..

FWIW I think the company's ethos being the issue rather than the car was crystal clear. I guess the crucial difference is that many likely bought into the Emira as being a more accessible, "old-school" Lotus driving experience, rather than feeling like the newest car on their driveway.

While I think the Exige and perhaps even an Evora is fundamentally a different proposition to any McLaren, I've seen a lot of discussions cross-shopping 12Cs, 540/570 etc. against the Emira. McLaren is 100% the way I'd go too.

Thanks for the video!

[Ken_Code]

M4SER said:

Wow, lots of good comments on here regarding the Lotus/McLaren swap.

Re reasons why I decided to sell Emira, it was more falling out of love with Lotus than issues with the car itself. I should have explained this better in the video.

I did enjoy driving the Emira, I liked the supercharged V6 as well, but I came to the conclusion the drive experience wasn’t as up to date as the design of the car was and that niggled me in a brand new car.

I had hoped the i4 would feel more on the pace but it was handicapped by the hopeless gearbox, as well as price. In the end, I just decided to move on and started looking at McLarens, as I’d always enjoyed driving them. I’m very happy with the 650S I ended up with, which you’ll find more on in a future video..

I really couldn't get on with the engine, and often found myslef thinking how much more I liked the K-series in the Elises I had, even the basic 118bhp version.

[LM240]

M4SER said:

Wow, lots of good comments on here regarding the Lotus/McLaren swap.

Re reasons why I decided to sell Emira, it was more falling out of love with Lotus than issues with the car itself. I should have explained this better in the video.

I did enjoy driving the Emira, I liked the supercharged V6 as well, but I came to the conclusion the drive experience wasn’t as up to date as the design of the car was and that niggled me in a brand new car.

I had hoped the i4 would feel more on the pace but it was handicapped by the hopeless gearbox, as well as price. In the end, I just decided to move on and started looking at McLarens, as I’d always enjoyed driving them. I’m very happy with the 650S I ended up with, which you’ll find more on in a future video..

Felt much the same years ago. Loved my Elise and still rate it as one of the best cars I’ve ever driven. For a blast on good roads, it’s amazing without needing to be stupid horsepower. Long journeys, less so.

Thought about moving onto exiges at the time and liked the Evora and Emira since. However, for the money I wanted something with company pedigree throughout (chassis and engine). Plus, you never knew what was around the corner or a new version of a model. So went off to Porsche.

For the money, Toyota engine spoils it a bit for me.

I don’t really understand the brand now. Saw the showroom in London and recently the display at Le Mans.

The Emira was sat between the saloon and suv (can’t be bothered checking the names). Pretty depressing sight in terms of being Lotus. The cars themselves look alright, but a Lotus?

Saw an Evija on the road the other day. Looks spectacular. I hadn’t realised they had gone from concept to actual production. Have I missed reviews of this car because it seemed to have gone off the radar?

I don’t really care about 2000bhp and the fact it’s electric is a big negative. It’s a halo car but lacking anything Lotus.

Lotus obviously need to survive, but for car fans the brand is not what people imagine in their head. Are the SUV and Saloon thing all made in China? But they’ve never really elevated themselves from a niche choice really throughout their history. But you’d forgive a lot because of how they drove and were reasonably priced. I’d love to see a range of sports cars, maybe propped up by an SUV that needs no excuses compared to Porsche.

[740EVTORQUES]

Why couldn’t the Emira had more of the looks of the Evija?

It’s good but the Evija is great

I don’t want or need a 200bhp EV hypercar, but I would like a car that looks like the Evija.

It’s clearly road legal so why water down the Emira?

Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Tuesday 25th June 18:44

[andrewcliffe]

Emiras and Evijas built in the UK
Eletre and the other thing built in China.
More and more R&D being shifted from Norfolk to the Warwickshire campus.

[otolith]

LM240 said:

But you’d forgive a lot because of how they drove and were reasonably priced.

The “reasonably priced” thing is something that happened as it changed from a high end brand to a vendor of basic little sports cars.

[LM240]

740EVTORQUES said:

Why couldn’t the Emira had more of the looks of the Evija?

It’s good but the Evija is great

I don’t want or need a 200bhp EV hypercar, but I would like a car that looks like the Evija.

It’s clearly road legal so why water down the Emira?

Edited by 740EVTORQUES on Tuesday 25th June 18:44

Cost/materials and packaging most likely.

The Emira looks lovely. I could just imagine a bespoke and lightweight ‘Cosworth-Lotus’ NA V6 with manual gearbox in the back.

Faster models could get higher tunes or turbo/supercharged versions. The development of such engine could sit in Elise, Emira and some other sports car on the next rung up. Then there’s the track specials to be spun off those models.

And the electric saloon and suv if they must.

And really focus on materials and quality.