Harry's Garage - YouTube
Discussion
RSTurboPaul said:
skwdenyer said:
sisu said:
Yes, the reasons why he fell out of love with Lotus is going to have a long, long tail for them.
Given that he was invited to London to bring his yellow Elise, the whole walk around the factory, signatures from the lads who built it. Handshake and a wave goodbye from the staff as he collected his car at the factory. As one person noted, its all a bit of a kick in the teeth for Lotus.
To give some alternative context this would be like Harry trading in his 2 year old launch edition sports car that he had all of the hoopla above to privately buy a 6 year old Lotus Evora 410.
TBH I am waiting for a car event he can attend where he does not get a prize.
Its a great win for McLaren given that they did not have a history with Harry.
Given Harry’s well-documented consulting gigs with JLR & entirely unrelated heavy featuring / lauding of their product on-screen, perhaps Lotus simply a missed a trick in not hiring him for his product development expertise?Given that he was invited to London to bring his yellow Elise, the whole walk around the factory, signatures from the lads who built it. Handshake and a wave goodbye from the staff as he collected his car at the factory. As one person noted, its all a bit of a kick in the teeth for Lotus.
To give some alternative context this would be like Harry trading in his 2 year old launch edition sports car that he had all of the hoopla above to privately buy a 6 year old Lotus Evora 410.
TBH I am waiting for a car event he can attend where he does not get a prize.
Its a great win for McLaren given that they did not have a history with Harry.
It is public knowledge that Harry was a paid consultant to JLR.
Surprised Harry sold a car with known provenance and his own history, for a used and thrashed - albeit very good - car.
We test drove one and loved it but the prices were already increasing significantly and delivery periods still many months so didn't order one.
Now, you can only order one of their "pre-configured" ones yet they're still quoting a 4 - 6 week delivery period and a £90,000+ price tag.
Except for that money I'd want the touring chassis, dark red paint and light grey seats with a V6 and some convenience nonsense. "No, Sir".
My mind boggles.
Maybe buying a low mileage one in the mid-sixties might actually be a better option?
We test drove one and loved it but the prices were already increasing significantly and delivery periods still many months so didn't order one.
Now, you can only order one of their "pre-configured" ones yet they're still quoting a 4 - 6 week delivery period and a £90,000+ price tag.
Except for that money I'd want the touring chassis, dark red paint and light grey seats with a V6 and some convenience nonsense. "No, Sir".
My mind boggles.
Maybe buying a low mileage one in the mid-sixties might actually be a better option?
RichardHMorris said:
Surprised Harry sold a car with known provenance and his own history, for a used and thrashed - albeit very good - car.
We test drove one and loved it but the prices were already increasing significantly and delivery periods still many months so didn't order one.
Now, you can only order one of their "pre-configured" ones yet they're still quoting a 4 - 6 week delivery period and a £90,000+ price tag.
Except for that money I'd want the touring chassis, dark red paint and light grey seats with a V6 and some convenience nonsense. "No, Sir".
My mind boggles.
Maybe buying a low mileage one in the mid-sixties might actually be a better option?
I think it's fair to say that most supercars have been driven hard. He'll get a warranty so what exactly are you worried about RE being driven hard? Would you never buy a car that's been on track? We test drove one and loved it but the prices were already increasing significantly and delivery periods still many months so didn't order one.
Now, you can only order one of their "pre-configured" ones yet they're still quoting a 4 - 6 week delivery period and a £90,000+ price tag.
Except for that money I'd want the touring chassis, dark red paint and light grey seats with a V6 and some convenience nonsense. "No, Sir".
My mind boggles.
Maybe buying a low mileage one in the mid-sixties might actually be a better option?
paralla said:
ArgonautX said:
paralla said:
But the solutions aren’t in the engine that Lotus puts in the Emira.
that's true, and I'm not really blaming the engine... Emira failed for various reasons, engine not being one of them. It's good enough. h0b0 said:
Uncle Meat said:
I know Harry said he's swapping the tyres, but I'm surprised the dealer was happy to sell a car with 8 year old tyres...unless that was part of the negotiations.
I thought it interesting when Harry said Charlie did the negotiations. Maybe Harry was sold on the car and would have just said "Take my money".skwdenyer said:
RSTurboPaul said:
skwdenyer said:
sisu said:
Yes, the reasons why he fell out of love with Lotus is going to have a long, long tail for them.
Given that he was invited to London to bring his yellow Elise, the whole walk around the factory, signatures from the lads who built it. Handshake and a wave goodbye from the staff as he collected his car at the factory. As one person noted, its all a bit of a kick in the teeth for Lotus.
To give some alternative context this would be like Harry trading in his 2 year old launch edition sports car that he had all of the hoopla above to privately buy a 6 year old Lotus Evora 410.
TBH I am waiting for a car event he can attend where he does not get a prize.
Its a great win for McLaren given that they did not have a history with Harry.
Given Harry’s well-documented consulting gigs with JLR & entirely unrelated heavy featuring / lauding of their product on-screen, perhaps Lotus simply a missed a trick in not hiring him for his product development expertise?Given that he was invited to London to bring his yellow Elise, the whole walk around the factory, signatures from the lads who built it. Handshake and a wave goodbye from the staff as he collected his car at the factory. As one person noted, its all a bit of a kick in the teeth for Lotus.
To give some alternative context this would be like Harry trading in his 2 year old launch edition sports car that he had all of the hoopla above to privately buy a 6 year old Lotus Evora 410.
TBH I am waiting for a car event he can attend where he does not get a prize.
Its a great win for McLaren given that they did not have a history with Harry.
It is public knowledge that Harry was a paid consultant to JLR.
But this "Hawk Thau" of the Green McLaren 750S on the last trip to France made the Emira seem a bit beige.
The Surveyor said:
h0b0 said:
Uncle Meat said:
I know Harry said he's swapping the tyres, but I'm surprised the dealer was happy to sell a car with 8 year old tyres...unless that was part of the negotiations.
I thought it interesting when Harry said Charlie did the negotiations. Maybe Harry was sold on the car and would have just said "Take my money".Regarding the 650s, at £80k it makes sense but over £100k like some of the higher spec spiders it’s awfully close to 458s and even 488s.
Doofus said:
Forgive me. I've tried, but I have no clue what this means.
It’s a currently popular bit of internet flotsam. https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/s/1vYch1KIBb
740EVTORQUES said:
Tyres over a certain age really should be an automatic MOT fail, even if there are no obvious cracks etc.
Regarding the 650s, at £80k it makes sense but over £100k like some of the higher spec spiders it’s awfully close to 458s and even 488s.
There are a lot more things that should be an automatic fail long before tyre age.Regarding the 650s, at £80k it makes sense but over £100k like some of the higher spec spiders it’s awfully close to 458s and even 488s.
If anyone wants the Car Magazine long term test of Harry's car when it was new, here is the link. https://www.carmagazine.co.uk/car-reviews/long-ter...
It is worth noting that current and ex car journalists who bemoan optional extras on press cars they test. Reading them out like a Protestant reading a sermon, scoffing at why someone would buy a car with this specification. Whilst you could understand the motivation for buying a car they tested in period without the extras later on in its life. As we all love a bargain.
Buying Ex UK Press cars in a sea of used cars does seem a bit rich.
It is worth noting that current and ex car journalists who bemoan optional extras on press cars they test. Reading them out like a Protestant reading a sermon, scoffing at why someone would buy a car with this specification. Whilst you could understand the motivation for buying a car they tested in period without the extras later on in its life. As we all love a bargain.
Buying Ex UK Press cars in a sea of used cars does seem a bit rich.
Edited by sisu on Tuesday 25th June 06:59
paralla said:
I firmly believe that the engine in a sports car is central to its appeal.
Seems to me like the 3.5 V6 got the job done but lacked any sort of drama, theatre, personality, fizz, or whatever else that endears a car to its owner.
The 2GR-FE 3.5 was developed in 2005 and just wasn’t special enough for the Emira.
V6s are difficult engines. Whether 90 or 60 they're still unbalanced not very revvy and tend to always remind one why they exist, which is about saving money. Seems to me like the 3.5 V6 got the job done but lacked any sort of drama, theatre, personality, fizz, or whatever else that endears a car to its owner.
The 2GR-FE 3.5 was developed in 2005 and just wasn’t special enough for the Emira.
If you wanted something cheaper than a V8 bit with more power than you could get from an I4 then the V6 was the compromise that had to be made. Wanted something that would fit in a small car but didn't want to develop a complex or more expensive engine but keep to your standard 500cc per cylinder? Then the V6 was the compromise. Were a cheap brand but wanted an executive model of a car? Your best compromise was always a V6.
In more recent years the V6 was looking like it would die off as the turbo diesel became the superior cheaper fix as did forced induction I4s even if petrol. But the manufacturers of premium V8s such as Jag and Merc etc suddenly needed a cheap solution to cc downsizing for emissions so opted for a 90 degree V6 from the same block which could be put together in the same line with many same parts. Great compromise.
While many affordable brands dropped their petrol V6 compromise units for budget premium and replaced them with turbo'd I4 units Toyota hung on with what is actually a very good engine but one that exists solely for budget and compromise reasons.
Lotus needed a cheap engine that had more power than could be got from an I4 back when they selected this engine but was small enough to fit in the compartment. They discovered that no such engine existed so compromised on the Toyota V6 which met nearly all the criteria required being very cheap, having the power needed, very reliable and fit about as well as they were going to find. Length and width fine but it ended up sitting quite high up in order to wedge in all the DOHC gubbins.
And for Lotus, a brand that had become dedicated to 'Just Add Cheapness' and then wrapping it around a body they had specifically designed to exude that image of cheapness it was perfect.
Until Lotus began asking silly amounts of money for the cars that had Toyota's premium minicab engine on top of the engine bay. They were asking for amounts in the region of £100k by the end of the Evora days. No one with that kind of money to spend was going to take that product seriously.
The Evora solves a massive chunk of the issue due to their very off brand decision to make it look more expensive than it is, breaking a 3 decade core tradition or telegraphing 'cheap product, big price'. But that Toyota V6 remains a bit of an issue. When they said the car was going to be £60k then it was just about fine. Lotus has no V6 heritage, the engine is all about 'budget', it's not exactly got great character like any budget V6 before or after but the car just looks way more than it costs, the V6 sounds nice and gives the right sort of power.
But Lotus is an I4 brand. It's road car heritage is defined by the I4 engine and they only stopped using it all those years ago in the more performance models because it wasn't possible back then to get suitable power from an I4. But you can today.
The correct crate engine to go into the Emira is the AMG i4. Because that engine and other high power i4s exist there is no reason at all for Lotus to still be doing anything with the Toyota V6.
McLaren's decision to use a V6 was interesting but Ricardo's 120 degree unit is really quite something but even one of the greatest V6s ever made and one where budget wasn't the core factor has been accused of not having the character of other engine types.
otolith said:
Doofus said:
Forgive me. I've tried, but I have no clue what this means.
It’s a currently popular bit of internet flotsam. https://www.reddit.com/r/OutOfTheLoop/s/1vYch1KIBb
ArgonautX said:
paralla said:
that's true, and I'm not really blaming the engine... Emira failed for various reasons, engine not being one of them. It's good enough.
The reason for so many initial deposit holders bailing is that very many were never in it for the car but the flip and when that silly bubble burst large numbers of punters pulled out of the tax free speculative bet. And then, after that weird market moment, you've ended up in another market where the exact demographic for this type of car has had discretionary income hit the hardest by rising funding costs of toys and homes as well as rising taxation.
Personally, I think the price of the Emira is absolutely fine but around the globe the number of consumers in its particular segment has reduced. Meanwhile, in the space above it hasn't really. A few people who were borrowing hard have been pushed out by finance rates but those with the actual income levels to match haven't seen any real economic impact to the changes of the last few years. Good pay rises, mortgages long gone, equity markets booming etc.
I think Harry just realised on that particular road trip that the McLaren was a seriously good car and that his garage had been conspicuously lacking what has been a particularly impressive British automotive success story. Then when faced with a 'one in, one out' the Emira was the weak link in the garage rather than being a weak link per se itself.
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