Harry's Garage - YouTube
Discussion
Dunbar871 said:
Forester1965 said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Even more so now you can have 500, 600 or 1100hp in an EV.
If the engine in a fun car isn't a good one then what's the point.
I think that's key, now. There's no point trying to make the USP of your ICE power. Electric can do that all day long and for a lot less money. If the engine in a fun car isn't a good one then what's the point.
You want your ICE to stand out for all the emotional reasons people who like them, like them. The sound, the crescendo as the revs rise, the sound, the responsiveness of the powertrain to inputs, the tactility of the transmission and, of course, the sound.
p1stonhead said:
Dunbar871 said:
Forester1965 said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Even more so now you can have 500, 600 or 1100hp in an EV.
If the engine in a fun car isn't a good one then what's the point.
I think that's key, now. There's no point trying to make the USP of your ICE power. Electric can do that all day long and for a lot less money. If the engine in a fun car isn't a good one then what's the point.
You want your ICE to stand out for all the emotional reasons people who like them, like them. The sound, the crescendo as the revs rise, the sound, the responsiveness of the powertrain to inputs, the tactility of the transmission and, of course, the sound.
Although I do find the 400 mile range in my 981 Cayman very useful for European tours and Scottish trips. Especially when you're truly in the middle of nowhere.
Ken_Code said:
It's more, but possibly in the same sort of ball-park. £80,000 will likely get you a decent 570GT, or 540c, neither of which is likely to depreicate as much as a one year-old Emira.
One part of the decision to sell the Emira and keep my 650s was my expectation that the Lotus would be the more expensive car to own for another couple of years.
Indeed, and it's the 570GT/S that I browse when on autotrader. However, it's the running of the car that would really stretch me, I have no fear of running a Toyota V6 manual, where as even the 570, is quite exotic in comparison.One part of the decision to sell the Emira and keep my 650s was my expectation that the Lotus would be the more expensive car to own for another couple of years.
DuncanM said:
Indeed, and it's the 570GT/S that I browse when on autotrader. However, it's the running of the car that would really stretch me, I have no fear of running a Toyota V6 manual, where as even the 570, is quite exotic in comparison.
That’s understandable, there’s definitely a possibility of a big bill with a McLaren, or the cost of a £5,000 warranty if you prefer that route.Dunbar871 said:
p1stonhead said:
Dunbar871 said:
Forester1965 said:
ChocolateFrog said:
Even more so now you can have 500, 600 or 1100hp in an EV.
If the engine in a fun car isn't a good one then what's the point.
I think that's key, now. There's no point trying to make the USP of your ICE power. Electric can do that all day long and for a lot less money. If the engine in a fun car isn't a good one then what's the point.
You want your ICE to stand out for all the emotional reasons people who like them, like them. The sound, the crescendo as the revs rise, the sound, the responsiveness of the powertrain to inputs, the tactility of the transmission and, of course, the sound.
Although I do find the 400 mile range in my 981 Cayman very useful for European tours and Scottish trips. Especially when you're truly in the middle of nowhere.
paralla said:
I firmly believe that the engine in a sports car is central to its appeal.
Seems to me like the 3.5 V6 got the job done but lacked any sort of drama, theatre, personality, fizz, or whatever else that endears a car to its owner.
The 2GR-FE 3.5 was developed in 2005 and just wasn’t special enough for the Emira.
The 2GR-FE is an fantastic engine.Seems to me like the 3.5 V6 got the job done but lacked any sort of drama, theatre, personality, fizz, or whatever else that endears a car to its owner.
The 2GR-FE 3.5 was developed in 2005 and just wasn’t special enough for the Emira.
The issue Lotus have is that, for whatever reason known only to them, they decided to mount it transversly in the back, thus limiting the choice of gearboxes.
2GR-FE only really needs new lifters to work reliably at over 8000 rpm. With different cams, it will make over 400 hp with no forced induction - people have built engines like this.
Edited by ArgonautX on Monday 24th June 15:38
ArgonautX said:
paralla said:
I firmly believe that the engine in a sports car is central to its appeal.
Seems to me like the 3.5 V6 got the job done but lacked any sort of drama, theatre, personality, fizz, or whatever else that endears a car to its owner.
The 2GR-FE 3.5 was developed in 2005 and just wasn’t special enough for the Emira.
The 2GR-FE is an fantastic engine.Seems to me like the 3.5 V6 got the job done but lacked any sort of drama, theatre, personality, fizz, or whatever else that endears a car to its owner.
The 2GR-FE 3.5 was developed in 2005 and just wasn’t special enough for the Emira.
The issue Lotus have is that, for whatever reason known only to them, they decided to mount it transversly in the back, thus limiting the choice of gearboxes.
2GR-FE only really needs new lifters to work reliably at over 8000 rpm. With different cams, it will make over 400 hp with no forced induction - people have built engines like this.
Edited by ArgonautX on Monday 24th June 15:38
As it is installed in the Emira it’s functional rather than the defining character of the car.
Olivera said:
Yet Lotus have pulled the Emira's rev limiter back to (IIRC) 6800rpm ?
That's because it's transversely mounted and hooked up to a modified Auris diesel manual gearbox, which has limitation on both torque and rpms. That is why Evora/Exige topped out at 430 hp.Quite why they decided to mount the engine transversely I don't know... yes, it made for some space to mount those useless +2 seats in the Evora, but everything else was compromised.
ArgonautX said:
That's because it's transversely mounted and hooked up to a modified Auris diesel manual gearbox, which has limitation on both torque and rpms. That is why Evora/Exige topped out at 430 hp.
If the gearbox is the limiting factor then why do Komotec need high lift camshafts and uprated valve springs to reach 7400rpm? Komotec are super well regarded when it comes to Lotus tuning, so I'm going with 8000rpm is complete balls.Olivera said:
If the gearbox is the limiting factor then why do Komotec need high lift camshafts and uprated valve springs to reach 7400rpm? Komotec are super well regarded when it comes to Lotus tuning, so I'm going with 8000rpm is complete balls.
honestly, I do not know what and why Komotec is doing.... I'm guessing they work on supercharged engines. There are aftermarket parts that enable NA 2GR-FE to run (and make power) at 8000 rpm. People have even put pistons from the DFI 2GR-FXE engine with 12.5:1 compression ratio.Olivera said:
If the gearbox is the limiting factor then why do Komotec need high lift camshafts and uprated valve springs to reach 7400rpm? Komotec are super well regarded when it comes to Lotus tuning, so I'm going with 8000rpm is complete balls.
I can't find the Komotec package you're talking about? None of the engine tuning options I can see open the engine up, they're exhaust/induction/reflash. The only thing I can see in the £20k area is a sequential box, not engine tuning? I would guess that they aren't engineering it to rev any higher because they can make their target power without doing so - I'd have thought a supercharged 3.5 litre engine running at 8000rpm would be making a LOT of power. An 8000rpm NA Evora engine would make more sense.
otolith said:
I can't find the Komotec package you're talking about? None of the engine tuning options I can see open the engine up, they're exhaust/induction/reflash. The only thing I can see in the £20k area is a sequential box, not engine tuning?
I would guess that they aren't engineering it to rev any higher because they can make their target power without doing so - I'd have thought a supercharged 3.5 litre engine running at 8000rpm would be making a LOT of power. An 8000rpm NA Evora engine would make more sense.
https://www.komo-tec.com/en/Phase-EX4-550-Mehrleistung-bis-zu-146-PS-145-Nm-Exige-4xx-V6-Range/2300-006PI would guess that they aren't engineering it to rev any higher because they can make their target power without doing so - I'd have thought a supercharged 3.5 litre engine running at 8000rpm would be making a LOT of power. An 8000rpm NA Evora engine would make more sense.
They're not running it above 7400rpm because it can't run above 7400rpm.
Is it not a bit odd that the new Emiras have shot up in price yet the used ones are losing money.
You’d think 2nd hand values would be helped by the new one’s potentially moving out of reach for some.
£60k used ones with barely any miles on are going to making choosing brand more difficult I would think
You’d think 2nd hand values would be helped by the new one’s potentially moving out of reach for some.
£60k used ones with barely any miles on are going to making choosing brand more difficult I would think
Ah, this one for the Exige?
https://www.komo-tec.com/en/Phase-EX4-550-Mehrleis...
It's making 550bhp, I'm not sure that investing in making it rev higher is really necessary!
https://www.komo-tec.com/en/Phase-EX4-550-Mehrleis...
It's making 550bhp, I'm not sure that investing in making it rev higher is really necessary!
Olivera said:
https://www.komo-tec.com/en/Phase-EX4-550-Mehrleis...
They're not running it above 7400rpm because it can't run above 7400rpm.
https://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/shop/p/2gr-fe2ar-fe-valve-spring-8000rpmThey're not running it above 7400rpm because it can't run above 7400rpm.
https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/mwr-val...
It can run above 7400 rpm, but maybe because it's supercharged, it doesn't need to. Or there is indeed some other limiting factor in the drivetrain.
otolith said:
Ah, this one for the Exige?
https://www.komo-tec.com/en/Phase-EX4-550-Mehrleis...
It's making 550bhp, I'm not sure that investing in making it rev higher is really necessary!
Letting it rev higher and sound better is what would give it the character it lacks. Nobody is saying it needs more power. It needs more personality. https://www.komo-tec.com/en/Phase-EX4-550-Mehrleis...
It's making 550bhp, I'm not sure that investing in making it rev higher is really necessary!
ArgonautX said:
https://frankensteinmotorworks.squarespace.com/sho...
https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/mwr-val...
It can run above 7400 rpm, but maybe because it's supercharged, it doesn't need to. Or there is indeed some other limiting factor in the drivetrain.
All the evidence suggests it's increasingly difficult to make it rev beyond 7000rpm in a reliable fashion. I'll take Komotec's vast experience of tuning cars (responsible for all of the Lotus Spa/Nurburgring laptime efforts, and 10 out of 14 Lotus Cup winning cars) over a few parts from a catalogue. Note also that the RML Group developed Emira GT4 also doesn't rev beyond 7000rpm: https://rmlgroup.com/news/2023/lotus-emira-gt4-wit... , and the Evora GT4 also had a similar rev limit.https://www.monkeywrenchracing.com/product/mwr-val...
It can run above 7400 rpm, but maybe because it's supercharged, it doesn't need to. Or there is indeed some other limiting factor in the drivetrain.
Olivera said:
All the evidence suggests it's increasingly difficult to make it rev beyond 7000rpm in a reliable fashion. I'll take Komotec's vast experience of tuning cars (responsible for all of the Lotus Spa/Nurburgring laptime efforts, and 10 out of 14 Lotus Cup winning cars) over a few parts from a catalogue. Note also that the RML Group developed Emira GT4 also doesn't rev beyond 7000rpm: https://rmlgroup.com/news/2023/lotus-emira-gt4-wit... , and the Evora GT4 also had a similar rev limit.
GT4 are BoP and probably have an air restrictor. They often will rev less than road cars they're based on!Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff