Transferring vinyl to PC, guitar very low in mix

[uknick]

When I record a LP via a USB phono pre amp to my windows 11 computer the guitar can be very low in the mix. For example, recording a Deep Purple album ends up with Blackmore’s guitar buried in the background. This only happens when playing back to a PC via USB. Playing through my hi-fi it sounds fine.

I’ve tried 2 phono amps and get the same result.

I’m going to dig out my old Windows 7 PC to see if that had the same problem, but before I do that has anybody here experienced this?

[uknick]

To answer the questions -

Why pay for Spotify etc. when I have the hardware and albums?

Record is plugged into phono pre amp and the pre amp is connected to pc via USB

I’m using audacity. But, I have tried other apps and get the same problem

I have now tried my windows 7 pc and get the same problem via USB. But, when connected to microphone input it works fine. My windows 11 pc doesn’t have dedicated microphone input.

I’ve also noticed it is one of channel of the USB driver at fault. If I swap the inputs the guitar is fine, but the organ is too soft.

[uknick]

996owner said:

uknick said:

To answer the questions -

Why pay for Spotify etc. when I have the hardware and albums?

Record is plugged into phono pre amp and the pre amp is connected to pc via USB

I’m using audacity. But, I have tried other apps and get the same problem

I have now tried my windows 7 pc and get the same problem via USB. But, when connected to microphone input it works fine. My windows 11 pc doesn’t have dedicated microphone input.

I’ve also noticed it is one of channel of the USB driver at fault. If I swap the inputs the guitar is fine, but the organ is too soft.

Sounds like a uSB soundcard issue. does the usb soundcard have any software to configure it?

on your win 7 machine right click on the speaker icon and go to recording control panel, check that there's no audio enhancements set on the input, such as mic boost surround sound.... win 7 is normally pretty decent for audio, win 10 on the other hand can be a pain.

Edited by 996owner on Tuesday 14th May 20:25

Thanks. I’ll have a look tomorrow. I’m also going to change the USB lead; not quite sure how that can be the issue but you never know.

[uknick]

nuyorican said:

Recording a stereo record in mono by accident perhaps? Or the other way round, old record in mono, recording in stereo… if the guitars were panned hard, or left straight down the middle, might get lost in translation.

Total guess, just adding an extra idea

Definitely not that. Ironically, the 1st Deep Purple album I tried is recorded in mono and that sounds fine. It's when I did the 2nd Deep Purple one which is in stereo the issue arose.

[uknick]

TonyRPH said:

If you're using the on board sound card for this, then it's likely that's where the problem is.

Whilst many PCs have a good on board DAC, very few have a good on board ADC - and to record analogue into a PC, yo need a really good ADC.

Something like a FocusRite 2i2 will do a good job.

For software, I've had very good results with HarddiskOgg - it will record to Flac, Mp3 or Ogg, despite the name.

Getting the levels right is also crucial.

Edited by TonyRPH on Tuesday 14th May 20:35

My Windows 11 machine is a Dell Inspiron bought a couple of years ago. I'm not sure how good the sound card/chip is in the machine.

But, if the built in sound card/chip could be the problem, how come this issue is not all over the internet? Or, does this mean most people have no idea what the sound is supposed to be like?

I'll have a look at HardDiskOGG.

[uknick]

Just to recap, I'm using Audacity to record, and have done for years when editing sound files, a Pro-Ject phono preamp with USB connection and decent record decks; a Pro-Ject PPM Genie and more recently my 1988 Bang and Olufsen.

I've just dug out some files I recorded a few years ago using my Windows 7 machine along with the same preamp and Pro-Ject deck and they have the same issue. I hadn't listened to them using headphones so hadn't noticed the issue. Therefore, it can't be a recent thing.

The fact it works OK through a microphone input indicates to me it's a USB driver issue. I've checked and have the latest Windows 11 drivers loaded.

Unfortunately, my Dell doesn't have a dedicated microphone, just for a socket for a combined headset with microphone input. Is there an adaptor to convert a standard 3.5mm stereo lead to work with this?

[uknick]

ATG said:

In the other copy of this thread I suggested trying to attach an A2D downstream of the OP's hifi's phono stage. I.e. either record from the output of his hifi's phono stage, or the output of his pre-amp, or a line-out from the back of his power amp, or a tape-out. Try using the PC's sound card to do this. That would eliminate the integrated phono-stage/A2D/USB device.

From my limited knowledge of these things, a phono stage is not just an amplifier. They need to include a frequency filter to reverse the filtering that's been applied during the production of the vinyl record ... RIAA equalisation. I wonder if the integrated USB device the OP is using has a crap RIAA filter?

I've tried 2 phono pre amps, the Pro-Ject one and a cheap Amazon one (all of £6.49 worth). Both have the same issue which led me to think it's a USB issue within the PCs.

I've probably misunderstood what you're suggesting, but is it to connect an audio input direct from the sound source into the PC sound card? If so, isn't that what using the microphone input does? I've already done that on the older PC and it woks fine.

[uknick]

Gramophone If the source was one of those, I'd get away with just using a 1920s old style microphone plugged into the PC

It is set to moving magnet, not coil. I did get it wrong on my first attempt, but the sound was so soft and fuzzy I checked the pre amp and saw I'd pressed in the coil select button by accident and set it to moving coil.

With regard to the sound, I agree the actual mix can't change. But, the guitar (which is predominantly right channel in the recording) sounds like it is being played right at the back of a hall whereas all the other instruments are at the front. If I swap the right and left channel output plugs the organ (which is predominantly left channel in the recording) sounds distant.

How can I upload a sound sample?

I have tried messing around with the EQ once recorded, but got nowhere. I don't know if an app can allow you to customise the EQ settings for initial recording. But, that is an awful lot of faff and shouldn't really be needed to be done.

[uknick]

Probably not as I tried 2 pre amps, 2 record decks and 2 computers. All giving the same result.

[uknick]

TonyRPH said:

A screenshot of your audio settings would be useful.

Ideally the settings in the 'sound' control panel (this is apparently well hidden in Windows 10 and I suspect Windows 11 too).

I access it from start / run "C:\Windows\system32\control.exe /name Microsoft.Sound"

This for example is the properties of my line in on my Asus soundcard. For recording records, 2 channel, 16 bit, 44100 Hz will be more than adequate.

Apologies if you already know this.

EDIT: Here's a 30 second sample of a recent capture I did

Edited by TonyRPH on Wednesday 15th May 14:08

Thanks for that. When I get home I’ll have a look at my computers.

[uknick]

ATG said:

Did you switch the plugs over at the record player end or the phono amp end. If you swapped them over at the record player end, it could be a fault with the cable.

Everything from the source LP to the PC has ben changed and still get the same result.

Regarding the comment above about EQ, I just remembered about a year ago when I first identified the issue I did find one thread on a vinyl lovers website from about 10 years ago where someone had the same problem, instruments sounding distant, and it was suggested there some EQ issues. Unfortunately, that was the last post with no answer forthcoming.

[uknick]

nuyorican said:

Same cables?

Sounds like a fault somewhere rather than a setting issue. I have some battered old Sennheiser DJ headphones. Occasionally they do a weird thing a little like you describe. The audio kind of flips and sounds weird. Give the cable a wiggle and they’re normal again.

The Pro-Ject turntable has separate RCA leads, the B&O has a built in lead which I use with a new adaptor cable. If it was leads, I would think the problem would manifest itself when using my hi-fi amplifier. But it is fine with the amplifier. Plus, it works fine when connected to a PC through a microphone input.

This all points back to there being an issue with the USB side of the set up.

[uknick]

Just to clarify, I'm using the USB output that is built into the phono pre amp. Because I've used two completely different preamps and the problem is still there I think it's a USB problem within the PC.

Yes, I can buy the Deep Purple and other 1970s and 80s rock albums. But, I can't buy any of the more obscure 1950s & 60s Jazz/Swing albums I thinking of copying.

[uknick]

OutInTheShed said:

That sounds like a good tool.
Alternatively there are plenty of USB sound adaptors with a Mic input from about £3 up wards, which might do the trick of identifying whether the ADC/USB process is currently the problem.

If it's not a hardware problem in the ADC area, then maybe what needs to be established is what format the data over the USB takes (e.g. is it 16 bit 44.1 kHz pcm stereo or what?) and what exactly happens to it between the USB port of the PC and being saved as a file.
I have a vague suspicion the PC is munging the data into some 5.1 or 7 channel nonsense and it's not working!

If you can validate the data at the USB socket, then the problem must be downstream of that.
Basic methodical trouble shooting.

What happens if you try only grabbing one channel, i.e. Left or Right, while the other is disconnected?
What happens if you feed it mono, i.e. put the same signal into both channels?

What happens if you take the USB input from your PC and play it straight out through the PC's speakers rather than saving it as a file?

I'll have a go at doing the above and see what happens.

[uknick]

Well, I've found out how I'm getting the problem, but not why.

The USB output is only giving me the left channel. If I unplug the left input to the preamp (with built in USB) no sound comes out at all. If I unplug the right channel there is no difference to the sound I'm hearing.

Thanks OutInTheShed for suggesting this, I'd never have thought of it.

I've only tried one of my preamps, I'll try the other later. But, I'm not sure this will make any difference to my finding.

[uknick]

I've now tested the new cheap phono preamp with USB built in and it has the same problem.

Now I know what the problem is to google, no right channel, I've found many people with the same problem. None of whom seem to have found a solution, beyond the obvious like make sure Audacity is set to stereo record.

Can I ask on here again, has anybody actually used the USB input to get a proper recording?

TonyRPH, from your screen shots it appears you used line in, not USB. Is this the case?

[uknick]

TonyRPH said:

I mostly use USB for recording from records. I have a FocusRite 2i2 interface, as well as an Altor Olivine USB interface.

The screenshots were from the PC I happened to be in front of at the time (I have 4) - but yes, USB works just fine.

In fact the sample recording I posted a couple of pages back was made via USB with HDOGG.

No (analogue) audio traverses USB, it's all digital at that stage, so it can't be a driver issue, and neither can it be a cable issue. It either works or it doesn't (in some cases it can stutter - but not play / record perfectly on one channel and nothing on the other).

Thanks. I'll try HDOGG to see what happens. If no success I'll just have to use the line input on my old windows 7 PC

[uknick]

I've now tried HDOGG and get the same problem. Looks like I'll stick to using the Line In on my windows 7 PC for the time being.

[uknick]

C4ME said:

What this is telling you is the left side overall is producing sound and the right isn’t. What this test on its own does not tell you is whether there is no input coming down the right cable or whether the right channel of the USB is the problem.

If you plug the right side cable into the left input and get sound then you know it is the USB (inc mixer). If you get no sound you know it is the right side input cable. Apologies if you have already validated sound is coming down both input cables.

No worries; I have done that.

The reason I think it is the USB and that alone is that a) when using the output connections to a normal amp works fine. When using the output with a 3.5mm into a PC line in it works fine.

[uknick]

TonyRPH said:

I didn't expect it to make any difference - it can only process the incoming audio stream, and if there's a channel missing from that...

Did you check the balance control in the windows mixer (both recording and playback) to ensure it's not faded over to one side?

The fact that both of your USB interfaces are apparently working on one channel only suggests this might be a possibility (although the balance control is typically device specific, so it would be odd if both devices had the balance control swung over to one channel).

On the other hand, it would also be odd for both USB devices to have issues on the same channel.

Please check your mixer settings. Post screenshots.

Is this what you meant for the recording device?