One for Plotloss...
Discussion
Sadly I think in the world of TV and Hi-Fi more b
ks is talked than any other industry. This results in massive confusion for the average person. HD Ready? Full HD? TruHD? 1080p 1080i 720p bluray hidef lmnop qrst. 60hz or 600hz?
However that being said whoever drew that image is a spastic, plain and simple.
ks is talked than any other industry. This results in massive confusion for the average person. HD Ready? Full HD? TruHD? 1080p 1080i 720p bluray hidef lmnop qrst. 60hz or 600hz? However that being said whoever drew that image is a spastic, plain and simple.
_dobbo_ said:
This results in massive confusion for the average person.
You see prior to t'internet if you wanted a product you didn't know an awful lot about you went to a shop, the keeper of which asked you questions about your requirements and offered you a selection of products which fitted those requirements.Then the internet came along and it made everyone an expert, except it didn't. It simply did what you say and created mass confusion.
Add then into this the 'it's one better' school of marketing and we have the situation which we have today in that specialist products in many fields are being box shifted by people existing in a market to which there are no longer any barriers to entry and not selling on the back of requirements but on the back of specifications and shininess to a load of doe eyed magpies touting themselves as experts clutching money they're fortunate to come together with in the first place.
I'd say that cartoon was relatively perceptive, on the whole.
Plotloss said:
I'd say that cartoon was relatively perceptive, on the whole.
Can't agree with that I'm afraid Plotters! For starters a 1080p TV has at nearly 5 times the horizontal resolution of most phones, and approximately 15 times the overall resolution.
Secondly, why wouldn't people be impressed by HD? Unless they've been sold a crap TV by a gel haired tit in Comet.
I stand by my earlier comment!
Edited by _dobbo_ on Tuesday 27th April 15:49
Taking the 37" - 42" size range as a representative sample.
Most people sit outside the point at which all resolutions look the same.
A few sit in the HD Ready sweet spot.
Hardly anyone at all sits at a distance that 1080p offers anything over HD Ready.
1080p is a projection resolution, unless of course we have a fairly significant overnight and retrofittable evolutionary event...
Most people sit outside the point at which all resolutions look the same.
A few sit in the HD Ready sweet spot.
Hardly anyone at all sits at a distance that 1080p offers anything over HD Ready.
1080p is a projection resolution, unless of course we have a fairly significant overnight and retrofittable evolutionary event...
_dobbo_ said:
For starters a 1080p TV has at nearly 5 times the horizontal resolution of most phones, and approximately 15 times the overall resolution.
My 18 month old (and rather crap) phone has a 3" screen with a horizontal resolution of 800px. The average 1080p TV is only 2.4 times that. Talking total resolution, then it's still only 5.4 times.HDTV is only impressive because SD is so poor, from a technical point of view it is nothing special.
_dobbo_ said:
Fair enough I was basing it on an iPhone, and to be fair the vast majority of phones on the market are way, way less than 800px.
Saying it's only impressive next to SD makes no sense to me though - what else would you compare it to?
Every other sort of screen apart from a TV? I had a computer monitor capable of "Full HD" nearly 15 years ago.Saying it's only impressive next to SD makes no sense to me though - what else would you compare it to?
It's a massive step forwards in TV quality, but one that was long overdue.
Plotloss said:
You see prior to t'internet if you wanted a product you didn't know an awful lot about you went to a shop, the keeper of which asked you questions about your requirements and offered you a selection of (highest profit margin) products which fitted those requirements.
Then the internet came along and it made everyone an expert, except it didn't. It simply allowed those intelligent enough to use the information, to find out what options were available to them rather than what the shopkeeper wanted to sell them/was about to be (or was already) discontinued/find out about products reported as having 'issues'.
EFA. Then the internet came along and it made everyone an expert, except it didn't. It simply allowed those intelligent enough to use the information, to find out what options were available to them rather than what the shopkeeper wanted to sell them/was about to be (or was already) discontinued/find out about products reported as having 'issues'.
OldSkoolRS said:
Plotloss said:
You see prior to t'internet if you wanted a product you didn't know an awful lot about you went to a shop, the keeper of which asked you questions about your requirements and offered you a selection of (highest profit margin) products which fitted those requirements.
Then the internet came along and it made everyone an expert, except it didn't. It simply allowed those intelligent enough to use the information, to find out what options were available to them rather than what the shopkeeper wanted to sell them/was about to be (or was already) discontinued/find out about products reported as having 'issues'.
EFA. Then the internet came along and it made everyone an expert, except it didn't. It simply allowed those intelligent enough to use the information, to find out what options were available to them rather than what the shopkeeper wanted to sell them/was about to be (or was already) discontinued/find out about products reported as having 'issues'.
Tell me, what's cheaper? A happy customer recommending your products and services or advertising to get new prospects through the door to, apparently, hoodwink?
Your argument would hold water in a brand specific shop but the vast majority of good retailers cover a huge proportion of the marketplace and can select the correct tool for the job.
Also, if my assertion held no merit whatsoever, why do countless people buy small LCD televisions because 'it's 1080p' innit? Why do people spend sometimes many thousands of pounds on reproduction equipment without considering the listening environment in any way?
If one chooses to take the information available on the internet, some of which is woefully inaccurate bordering on the downright misleading, and treat it as a 'top trumps' deck for product selection without understanding the deeper issues behind the curtain then it shouldn't be too much of a surprise if the reality doesnt live up to the dream. I'm not saying all consumers are clueless morons incapable of making a decent decision but an unfortunate proportion are, sadly. Equally there are some unscrupulous dealers and marketers. However, your assertion holds little water simply because it makes no commercial sense long term.
dibbers006 said:
Comments... in order, when people see my Tv:
Life really is Top Trumps for a lot of people. Whether they realise they are doing it, living it, being it or not is a debate for another day but unless it is their own specialist subject, most people are sheeps.
Frankly I don't know what you'd expect the average guy/gal in the street to say other than the 3 points you've made above. I mean your 2nd point above covers their inquisitiveness about the picture quality to a degree. Of course all 1080p's are not equal but in general if they are aware of the term 1080p then they'll know/assume its better than CRT.- Wow, its quite large
- Does it do 1080p
- How much did it cost
Life really is Top Trumps for a lot of people. Whether they realise they are doing it, living it, being it or not is a debate for another day but unless it is their own specialist subject, most people are sheeps.
Other than that, if you have (say) a 42" TV or larger I'd expect anybody to comment on the size and the price is, of course, a curiosity most people would have.
The same way people in the street also judge how fast a car is by the size of its engine. No difference. And we all know that makes very little difference.
I tell people my 5 series has a 2,8 litre engine, and they think it must be quicker than a 2 ltr hot hatch. When in actual fact a 1.4 car can be quicker.
ETA where the hell is Der, something seems to be going on with one of his companies...
I tell people my 5 series has a 2,8 litre engine, and they think it must be quicker than a 2 ltr hot hatch. When in actual fact a 1.4 car can be quicker.
ETA where the hell is Der, something seems to be going on with one of his companies...
Plotloss said:
good retailers
This is the critical bit though isn't it?Joe public tends to buy what they see on the net, in currys or what thier mates have (but bigger). There are many discussion on here about the spotty youth in 'major electrical retailer x' giving duff info or just selling what makes the most commision.
Plotloss said:
Edited for cobblers more like.
Tell me, what's cheaper? A happy customer recommending your products and services or advertising to get new prospects through the door to, apparently, hoodwink?
Your argument would hold water in a brand specific shop but the vast majority of good retailers cover a huge proportion of the marketplace and can select the correct tool for the job.
Also, if my assertion held no merit whatsoever, why do countless people buy small LCD televisions because 'it's 1080p' innit? Why do people spend sometimes many thousands of pounds on reproduction equipment without considering the listening environment in any way?
If one chooses to take the information available on the internet, some of which is woefully inaccurate bordering on the downright misleading, and treat it as a 'top trumps' deck for product selection without understanding the deeper issues behind the curtain then it shouldn't be too much of a surprise if the reality doesnt live up to the dream. I'm not saying all consumers are clueless morons incapable of making a decent decision but an unfortunate proportion are, sadly. Equally there are some unscrupulous dealers and marketers. However, your assertion holds little water simply because it makes no commercial sense long term.
While, to be fair, I've never knowingly been in Plotless' shop (probably get thrown out now anyway Tell me, what's cheaper? A happy customer recommending your products and services or advertising to get new prospects through the door to, apparently, hoodwink?
Your argument would hold water in a brand specific shop but the vast majority of good retailers cover a huge proportion of the marketplace and can select the correct tool for the job.
Also, if my assertion held no merit whatsoever, why do countless people buy small LCD televisions because 'it's 1080p' innit? Why do people spend sometimes many thousands of pounds on reproduction equipment without considering the listening environment in any way?
If one chooses to take the information available on the internet, some of which is woefully inaccurate bordering on the downright misleading, and treat it as a 'top trumps' deck for product selection without understanding the deeper issues behind the curtain then it shouldn't be too much of a surprise if the reality doesnt live up to the dream. I'm not saying all consumers are clueless morons incapable of making a decent decision but an unfortunate proportion are, sadly. Equally there are some unscrupulous dealers and marketers. However, your assertion holds little water simply because it makes no commercial sense long term.
), I have had such experience in supposedly 'AV/Hifi' shops as opposed to Currys, et al. If you do a good job, then hopefully you're rewarded by recommendations and returns...I didn't return in my example as I felt that I'd been given biased information even after a demo when I prefered one model over the one he was pushing and he couldn't seem to accept my choice. Instead I left and did a lot of research, went to more shops and simply arranged a home demo against my credit card. This was when looking for some speakers that were to become a base for the whole surround system and eventually I found some PMCs that suited the bill.Another shop tried to sell me a TV that I knew was discontinued at an excessively high price and denied the existance of the replacement model (even when I quoted it). Ironically I did buy this TV elsewhere as I'd researched what was 'missing' on the old model and deceided that I didn't need that feature (24p as I have a projector for films). I got it from a dealer who fully acknowledged it was discontinued and priced it accordingly (might even have been Der's shop I think, though I didn't know of him at the time).
I've also bought some items secondhand (after careful research on prices) knowing that if I wasn't impressed I could sell on at little or no loss. So far I've been lucky in that I've bought a used Isco lens, Arcam AV9 processor, various Arcam power amps to service all the channels and some PMC speakers, all of which I've ended up keeping.
Had I listened to one dealer I would have an Arcam AVR600 instead and be one of many complaining about the pops and clips and general handshake issues that shouldn't occur on a £3K+ amp. Interesting the sheep comments above as my current setup has forgone having the HD sound decoding of my previous setup in preferance to using a higher quality, but only DTS/DD/analogue processor and I prefer the result to my previous Denon receiver even though it doesn't have all the 'top trumps'...the AV9/P35 combo sounds better with 'Core DTS' than the 2808 did with DTS Master. No dealer would have suggested this combination (unless he had some ex display or used stock perhaps), yet it cost way less than a new AVR600, even if I add on the cost of a good sounding 7.1 analogue output BluRay player in future.
I also don't see the point of a 32" 1080p TV unless it's used as a PC monitor perhaps and no doubt soon we'll have the 3D badge chasers as well (another pointless gimick IMHO if all the films are as crap as Avatar
). Or take the number of posters on various AVForums that are considering an expensive projector like a JVC HD950 or similar, then admit that they plan to project onto a bare wall, have no light control and the walls are all white (so as not to upset their OH's decoration plans)...I'd hope a 'good' dealer would stear them away from a wasteful purchase as this or at least recommend a suitable screen for such poor conditions, but I suspect many wouldn't.So please don't tar all of us 'Internet trained' AV enthusiasts with the same brush...my system is the result of a lot of research and importantly, home demos, plus learning how to calibrate it all properly (what a learning curve that was too, but worth it know I know how to do it). It's not an exercise in box ticking or specification chasing (otherwise maybe I'd have a Panasonic AE4000 projector 'cos it's got 100,000:1 contrast 'in it?!). Unfortunately I've had little help from local dealers as they seem intent on selling 'lifestyle' type systems or just narrow mindedly only offering a restricted range (which is why I cynically suggested these might make more margin). Maybe Plotless' shop is different, but I'll likely never know and can only speak from my experience, though I'm not sure that your customers would appreciate you thinking that an 'unfortunate proportion' of them are clueless morons.
We don't operate from a shop, so we don't have walk up trade.
Our customers have lots of everything except the one thing that means the most to them, time.
Some want to get involved in the technology, most simply want the result.
In the market in which we operate outright specifications count for little as generally speaking everything we spec outperforms the commodity AV market in every way, so its then a case of aesthetic, or at least aesthetic management and interoperability.
So our market is very different from the walk up market in that there is a requirement with an aesthetic consideration budget is often secondary which gives us the freedom to create schemes which the client enjoys when he is able, thus getting the best return for investment on the most valuable of his commodities.
As I said not everyone does go off half cocked with a little bit of dangerous knowledge, those that do however, in all markets, not just AV, have largely killed of traditional retailing. Which I think is a shame. Also as I said they've not done it alone, cowboys have their part too but the nett effect is a universal loss.
Our customers have lots of everything except the one thing that means the most to them, time.
Some want to get involved in the technology, most simply want the result.
In the market in which we operate outright specifications count for little as generally speaking everything we spec outperforms the commodity AV market in every way, so its then a case of aesthetic, or at least aesthetic management and interoperability.
So our market is very different from the walk up market in that there is a requirement with an aesthetic consideration budget is often secondary which gives us the freedom to create schemes which the client enjoys when he is able, thus getting the best return for investment on the most valuable of his commodities.
As I said not everyone does go off half cocked with a little bit of dangerous knowledge, those that do however, in all markets, not just AV, have largely killed of traditional retailing. Which I think is a shame. Also as I said they've not done it alone, cowboys have their part too but the nett effect is a universal loss.
The whole "willy waving" specs thing was one bit I could never be bothered about when i was in the industry. Some years ago, people would buy amps / tellies etc based on how they looked and sounded. Now, many people simply buy / sell on pointless specifications, with no overall thought to quality.
When that little Onkyo came out at £350 quid with HDMI scaling, hundreds and hundreds of people ignored that fact that it was a crap amp with a box ticking scaler, and further ignored that scaler's inability to make a better picture than the one already in a panel. I used to visit shop after shop where (my) customers would do the demo, show their punter how much better, e.g an Arcam was performance wise, only for the punter to decide that since he read on avforums that the world ended at £349.99, they would buy it anyway. After all, the 350 quid job was "120 watts", and the Arcam would be quoted at about 45 ish.
Same situation for the Pioneer Kuros. They kicked the arse out of anything else picture wise, but 76% of folks didn't want one because it has "less contrast" on the sticker than the korean tat, and furthermore it had less dots. It wasn't even 600Hz, not that that ever made a blind bit of difference to the fact it was a market leader.
[footnote]I'm not bashing Onkyo per se, they make good kit. It's the "buy cheap box ticking device despite my budget and ears being suited to the 1200 quid nutter that ticks about 2 boxes, but sounds 100 times better" mentality.
When that little Onkyo came out at £350 quid with HDMI scaling, hundreds and hundreds of people ignored that fact that it was a crap amp with a box ticking scaler, and further ignored that scaler's inability to make a better picture than the one already in a panel. I used to visit shop after shop where (my) customers would do the demo, show their punter how much better, e.g an Arcam was performance wise, only for the punter to decide that since he read on avforums that the world ended at £349.99, they would buy it anyway. After all, the 350 quid job was "120 watts", and the Arcam would be quoted at about 45 ish.
Same situation for the Pioneer Kuros. They kicked the arse out of anything else picture wise, but 76% of folks didn't want one because it has "less contrast" on the sticker than the korean tat, and furthermore it had less dots. It wasn't even 600Hz, not that that ever made a blind bit of difference to the fact it was a market leader.
[footnote]I'm not bashing Onkyo per se, they make good kit. It's the "buy cheap box ticking device despite my budget and ears being suited to the 1200 quid nutter that ticks about 2 boxes, but sounds 100 times better" mentality.
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