Stereo upgrade time, but where to start???
Discussion
A little help needed please.
I am thinking that the time may be nearing to upgrade my home stereo set-up. I am starting to hear the limitations of its performance and would like something fresh which will give me a clear improvement in sound quality and listening pleasure.
I am not an audiophile and am not familiar with many of the technical terms I see banded around here and other places, but I do like quality kit and quality sound (clear, detailed, punchy and with presence). My main listening room is approx 4.5m x 5.5m)
My existing set-up consists of Roksan Kandy KC-1 CD player, Roksan Kandy KA-1 Integrated Amp and B&W DM601-S2 speakers, QED Silver Anniversary Edition speaker cables and Sonic Link Lilac interconnects. I've had this set-up for about 10 years and it cost me in the order of £1200 when new. It has served me well.
To see a real improvement what should I be looking to replace - parts of it or all of it? I'm not against a complete 'from scratch' set-up, but to realise that improvement what sort of cash are we talking?
I know I need to go out and audition some kit, but it's where to start????
I am thinking that the time may be nearing to upgrade my home stereo set-up. I am starting to hear the limitations of its performance and would like something fresh which will give me a clear improvement in sound quality and listening pleasure.
I am not an audiophile and am not familiar with many of the technical terms I see banded around here and other places, but I do like quality kit and quality sound (clear, detailed, punchy and with presence). My main listening room is approx 4.5m x 5.5m)
My existing set-up consists of Roksan Kandy KC-1 CD player, Roksan Kandy KA-1 Integrated Amp and B&W DM601-S2 speakers, QED Silver Anniversary Edition speaker cables and Sonic Link Lilac interconnects. I've had this set-up for about 10 years and it cost me in the order of £1200 when new. It has served me well.
To see a real improvement what should I be looking to replace - parts of it or all of it? I'm not against a complete 'from scratch' set-up, but to realise that improvement what sort of cash are we talking?
I know I need to go out and audition some kit, but it's where to start????
Edited by pstruck on Wednesday 24th March 13:33
I think your amp and cd are pretty good. Keep these and your cables but change to a better pair of speakers. Personally, I would call Roksan and ask what speakers match your electronics, then, have a listen to a pair of Spendor S5 floorstanders. They may match quite well and will give you a huge leap in performance over the 601's.
I'd be going to listen to a pair of these (with some decent stands) - http://www.superfi.co.uk/index.cfm/page/moreinfo.c...
It is a nice set-up, but I just feel it has lost its sparkle. That or my ear has changed or become more critical. The sound just seems little dull and lacking in detail sometimes.
When I bought the kit I was sold the speakers as a good match for the CD and amp. They auditioned well and the set-up as a whole was a fair step up from my previous kit. I now though feel that it is slightly lacking in something. I would struggle though to identify which of the components is the 'weak link'.
When I bought the kit I was sold the speakers as a good match for the CD and amp. They auditioned well and the set-up as a whole was a fair step up from my previous kit. I now though feel that it is slightly lacking in something. I would struggle though to identify which of the components is the 'weak link'.
Having done a bit more thinking I'm going to start with upgrading my speakers only. Due to space restrictions I will stick with bookshelf size speakers. My shortlist so far is:
Monitor Audio GS10
Roksan Kandy K2 TR-5
PMC DB1i
Dali Mentor Menuet
ATC SCM 11
Any thoughts, comments or experience of any of these?
Monitor Audio GS10
Roksan Kandy K2 TR-5
PMC DB1i
Dali Mentor Menuet
ATC SCM 11
Any thoughts, comments or experience of any of these?
Edited by pstruck on Tuesday 30th March 21:55
Having had a few bits expensive kit in past years, having been into "Hi-Fi" since 1974 and sitting with a pair of bi-wired B&W 601 S2 speakers above my head near the ceiling on a bookshelf (wife's system, only one now) -
I'd suggest unless you like the sound of the other speakers and can get them at a good price to keep the B&W
I put them on my system once and was a b it upset when I had to crank the volume right up to hear the difference in my room over my pair at the time that cost at least six times the price
More suggestion after HIGNFY
I'd suggest unless you like the sound of the other speakers and can get them at a good price to keep the B&W
I put them on my system once and was a b it upset when I had to crank the volume right up to hear the difference in my room over my pair at the time that cost at least six times the price
More suggestion after HIGNFY
Two things that greatly influence the sound quality but that you have little influence over are the shape and construction of the living room and second a disinterested partner
Things you could try before changing your speakers and components
Low or zero cost improvements include:
repositioning or angling the speakers
putting more or less things on your bookshelves
repositioning or parting the other components
moving large items of furniture
increasing or decreasing the soft furnishings in the listening room
using individual wall sockets instead of a shared trailing socket
unplug and replug all connections several times to clean them every six months
isolation device for the speakers and other components
having speakers and other components on solid bases (spikes and/or slabs as rqd)
better quality source material CDs (GIGO) very important for any equipment
Low to high cost:
better sounding cables and interconnects (law of diminishing returns)
(electric) mains cables and connectors
get the B&Ws on to high quality (and mass if rqd) floorstands
mains purifiers (I've never tried them but have used dedicated component power suppliers to good effect at a high price)
dedicated electric power supply from electric consumer unit (very cheap and effective for my small property)
equipment isolation stands/frames
Don't lose sight of the fact you want to listen to the music not the equipment - it will happen if you take it too far and everyone else's inexpensive equipment will sound good but your expensive stuff will never sound good enough to you
Things you could try before changing your speakers and components
Low or zero cost improvements include:
repositioning or angling the speakers
putting more or less things on your bookshelves
repositioning or parting the other components
moving large items of furniture
increasing or decreasing the soft furnishings in the listening room
using individual wall sockets instead of a shared trailing socket
unplug and replug all connections several times to clean them every six months
isolation device for the speakers and other components
having speakers and other components on solid bases (spikes and/or slabs as rqd)
better quality source material CDs (GIGO) very important for any equipment
Low to high cost:
better sounding cables and interconnects (law of diminishing returns)
(electric) mains cables and connectors
get the B&Ws on to high quality (and mass if rqd) floorstands
mains purifiers (I've never tried them but have used dedicated component power suppliers to good effect at a high price)
dedicated electric power supply from electric consumer unit (very cheap and effective for my small property)
equipment isolation stands/frames
Don't lose sight of the fact you want to listen to the music not the equipment - it will happen if you take it too far and everyone else's inexpensive equipment will sound good but your expensive stuff will never sound good enough to you
Thanks for your detailed response and thoughts on this Nigel.
I'm going to try tweaking a few things before spending any serious money. My current B&W's are stood on stands, but one of them is a bit wobbly as the spikes go through the carpet onto the concrete floor which must be a bit uneven. First thing is to try and get it sat nice and stable.
Secondly I'm going to fill my stands with sand (if I can). I've never done this in the 10 years that I've had them, so it'll be interesting to see if it makes any difference.
There's not much scope for moving the speaker positions too much, but I will try angling them differently. I have read that some set-ups benefit from a bit of 'toe-in', whereas others a better without. A bit of trial and error here I guess.
I'm going to try tweaking a few things before spending any serious money. My current B&W's are stood on stands, but one of them is a bit wobbly as the spikes go through the carpet onto the concrete floor which must be a bit uneven. First thing is to try and get it sat nice and stable.
Secondly I'm going to fill my stands with sand (if I can). I've never done this in the 10 years that I've had them, so it'll be interesting to see if it makes any difference.
There's not much scope for moving the speaker positions too much, but I will try angling them differently. I have read that some set-ups benefit from a bit of 'toe-in', whereas others a better without. A bit of trial and error here I guess.
pstruck said:
Thanks for your detailed response and thoughts on this Nigel.
No problem glad to be of helppstruck said:
I'm going to try tweaking a few things before spending any serious money.
good, before spending more than modest amounts - unpluging and replugging ever connection is free as is repositioning items pstruck said:
My current B&W's are stood on stands, but one of them is a bit wobbly as the spikes go through the carpet onto the concrete floor which must be a bit uneven. First thing is to try and get it sat nice and stable.
yes very important and get the base level, also if you've used spikes from stand platform to speaker you could try replacing the spikes with blu-tac, the blu-tac over time will fix the speakers to the stands so solidly that you will be able to lift the stand by using the speaker BUT you should not really try this in case they separate and you damage yourself or the equipment pstruck said:
Secondly I'm going to fill my stands with sand (if I can). I've never done this in the 10 years that I've had them, so it'll be interesting to see if it makes any difference.
above and this combined will make a notable improvement - I filled some stands and decided to use the fine sand that goes into kids sand pits as it already very dry and was easy to funnel into the stands but then I noticed very fine bits of sand on the base and need to block some tiny pinholes at the jointpstruck said:
There's not much scope for moving the speaker positions too much, but I will try angling them differently. I have read that some set-ups benefit from a bit of 'toe-in', whereas others a better without. A bit of trial and error here I guess.
yeap at bit of trial and error for most things - the B&W 600 Series 2 speakers can be used without toe-in or very little toe-in, (the toe-in need not be the same for both speakers because of your room and what's in it and where)The speaker should be (if possible) at least 0.5m from the side and back walls (or large furniture against the walls) and at least 1.5 apart from each other - I know this because I keep Owner's Manuals
Bi-wiring may help (if you like the sound of the stuff you've already got then double up on it, I quadrupled once to great results)
Some like to take the front cover off, I'm not so sure personally
Under the CD and Amp cones and dics or (can't remember the name) squishy slightly sticky soft rubber type pads or try two tennis balls cut in half to prove isolation to yourself
Also for CD player and in-expensive - (Allsop) CD laser cleaner disc with pink noise track (Allsop) - http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/browse.asp?google=205
Densen DeMagic demagnetism (does whole system) -
http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/browse.asp?product=144
and just about any CD remastered by Steve Hoffman of albums you like - Google and Wiki are not helpful with all that Steve Hoffman done, look for DCC (Digital Compact Clasics), and Audio Fidelity you might still get new
As for post above I'm lost, I think he wants to know shape and dimensions of your room and furnishing but you'd never be able to give enough detail just experiment as much as you can BUT when you find something that works don't move it again or you'll lose "the sweet spot"
pstruck said:
It is a nice set-up, but I just feel it has lost its sparkle. That or my ear has changed or become more critical. The sound just seems little dull and lacking in detail sometimes.
The problem may be physical. Go and get your ears tested. A few minutes in a sound proof booth listening to beeps could save a lot of time and effort. FlossyThePig said:
pstruck said:
It is a nice set-up, but I just feel it has lost its sparkle. That or my ear has changed or become more critical. The sound just seems little dull and lacking in detail sometimes.
The problem may be physical. Go and get your ears tested. A few minutes in a sound proof booth listening to beeps could save a lot of time and effort. 
Nigel, you were right - looking for room nodes, as whilst what you've said is elementary, more beneficial improvements can be eeked out from speaker placement vis a vis room nodes, and reflections.
A drop of the right home furnishings or specific acoustic treatment, can make much larger improvements than chucking money at electronics or typical accessories.
Also worth noting, the sand should be builder's sharp sand, and if possible, a decent amount of lead shot for good measure - dissimilar materials resonate at different frequencies, plus the additional mass to ground the speakers.
Marble/granite/slate "plinths" below the stand too, may also offer some improvement too, depending on the flooring.
Equally, and whilst not exactly the pinnacle of aesthetics, the same idea on the top of the speakers can damp enclosure resonances - similar idea as the Shakti Stones, but vastly cheaper!
A drop of the right home furnishings or specific acoustic treatment, can make much larger improvements than chucking money at electronics or typical accessories.
Also worth noting, the sand should be builder's sharp sand, and if possible, a decent amount of lead shot for good measure - dissimilar materials resonate at different frequencies, plus the additional mass to ground the speakers.
Marble/granite/slate "plinths" below the stand too, may also offer some improvement too, depending on the flooring.
Equally, and whilst not exactly the pinnacle of aesthetics, the same idea on the top of the speakers can damp enclosure resonances - similar idea as the Shakti Stones, but vastly cheaper!
This is all very technical. My listening room is also my main living room and as such I need to be careful not to create a space that is so finely tuned to acoustics as to be unusable for anything else. If only for the sake of matrimonial harmony!
I have now filled the speaker stands with sand (although not builders sharp sand) and they are much heavier and more sturdy feeling than before. I have also wired the speakers with new Chord Carnival Silver Screen (not bi-wired though) and tweaked the speaker positions slightly. It is difficult to achieve 0.5m away from walls though, as this would bring a risk of falling over them!
From the small changes made so far I would say there is some improvement in overall sound quality and certainly a less 'booming' and more controlled bass.
I have now filled the speaker stands with sand (although not builders sharp sand) and they are much heavier and more sturdy feeling than before. I have also wired the speakers with new Chord Carnival Silver Screen (not bi-wired though) and tweaked the speaker positions slightly. It is difficult to achieve 0.5m away from walls though, as this would bring a risk of falling over them!
From the small changes made so far I would say there is some improvement in overall sound quality and certainly a less 'booming' and more controlled bass.
PJ S said:
Nigel, you were right - looking for room nodes, as whilst what you've said is elementary, more beneficial improvements can be eeked out from speaker placement vis a vis room nodes, and reflections.
yeap I did mention moving furniture, could also hang wall matsPJ S said:
A drop of the right home furnishings or specific acoustic treatment, can make much larger improvements than chucking money at electronics or typical accessories.
yes maybe and as it's free it's well worth a tryPJ S said:
worth noting, the sand should be builder's sharp sand,
I disagree there as how do you dry out builders sand, play sand you can buy in the right size bags and it's already dry PJ S said:
and if possible, a decent amount of lead shot for good measure - dissimilar materials resonate at different frequencies, plus the additional mass to ground the speakers.
I've never tried that as I've no idea where to get it fromI have used to good effect some very heavy mass black stuff that I can't remember the name of but I got if from my local Hi-Fi shop
PJ S said:
Marble/granite/slate "plinths" below the stand too, may also offer some improvement too, depending on the flooring.
flooring is carpet over concrete so a fibre board or speaker platform maybe or even depending on the stand once loaded the spikes could be removedPJ S said:
Equally, and whilst not exactly the pinnacle of aesthetics, the same idea on the top of the speakers can damp enclosure resonances - similar idea as the Shakti Stones, but vastly cheaper!
IMO blue-tac as it will be unseen will look better and work betterAs you can see from us two it's quite easy to see to become obsessive and nerdy about this and loose sight of what you want to enjoy is the music (or train sounds or for whatever you bought the system to listen to)
I should have said there are three things you can do little about the room, the partner and you - if you take it far enough then there is only problem and that's you - you can't hear what you think you should hear and possibly you never will
And your hearing and tastes change with age so sticking to inexpensive upgrades with each change of system or component is a basic principle
Or of course you could do as others have done - move to somewhere where you can build a separate dedicated listen room building and have a separate power supply laid in from the national grid, it's been done before - or you could keep things in perspective and enjoy what you listen to and other things in life
Now I must stop obsessing, good luck
pstruck said:
It is a nice set-up, but I just feel it has lost its sparkle. That or my ear has changed or become more critical. The sound just seems little dull and lacking in detail sometimes.
I now though feel that it is slightly lacking in something. I would struggle though to identify which of the components is the 'weak link'.
I now though feel that it is slightly lacking in something. I would struggle though to identify which of the components is the 'weak link'.
That is exactly how I felt with my system.....
Roksan Caspian Mk1 CD
Roksan Kandy Mk 3 amp
Monitor Audio Silver 5's
Bi wired silver aniversay, and the same interconnects as you....
My vinyl sounded fine Rega Planet turntable.....
so I deduced it was possibly my CD player not performing,tt just seemed dull, music was missing something......... I changed my CD player for Rega Apollo, and ever since haven't stopped listening to old CD's I thought that had got dull due to me just being "too used to them"..... but owe how wrong I was, and I'm glad I changed my player.
Er, just remembered you don't want to be in the same room when playing Densen DeMagic demagnetism disc at normal listening level - http://www.stoneaudio.co.uk/browse.asp?product=144 -
And above Hoover may well be right that it could be your CD player but if your hi-fi system was a car and the CD player the engine then you'd service the engine and then tune it before changing the engine, wouldn't you
and perhaps try the seat in a slightly different position to make you more comfortable before changing the car wouldn't you
And above Hoover may well be right that it could be your CD player but if your hi-fi system was a car and the CD player the engine then you'd service the engine and then tune it before changing the engine, wouldn't you
and perhaps try the seat in a slightly different position to make you more comfortable before changing the car wouldn't you
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