WTF is happening with music these days? (Loudness War)
Discussion
Happy to be getting back into Hi-Fi, I dusted off many old albums and yesterday play.com kindly delivered a new selection through my door (the mrs just looked at me and laughed as the postman shoved through 20-odd play envelopes).
Without sounding like an old codger (I'm 32) WTF is happening to music - I dont mean the artists or songwriting, but the post production and mixing?
Many of my old albums sound great, but probably 50% of my new albums just sound flat and dull. Have we really gone backwards?
Reading though the Elbow sleeve booklet they mention 'turnmeup.org' (or something) and it all made sense. How can any sound engineer genuinely think that these clipped/loud tracks sound are as good as they could be is beyond me.
I lost a load of CDs in a house move (don't ask) so rebought some. 'Brothers in Arms' used to make the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end in places, but the 'remastered' version delivered yesterday is flat and horrible.
OK, so the system might be showing things up slightly, and it's not high-end by a long way, but it's just madness. Is there even any point in buying high end hi-fi anymore if you listen to modern artists. It strikes me that the whole 'garbage in, garbage out' argument would be valid.
Loudness war... I could understand if it just affected the X-Factor winner albums and dross, but genuinely decent artists with wide appeal are being strangled. IMO of course.
Without sounding like an old codger (I'm 32) WTF is happening to music - I dont mean the artists or songwriting, but the post production and mixing?
Many of my old albums sound great, but probably 50% of my new albums just sound flat and dull. Have we really gone backwards?
Reading though the Elbow sleeve booklet they mention 'turnmeup.org' (or something) and it all made sense. How can any sound engineer genuinely think that these clipped/loud tracks sound are as good as they could be is beyond me.
I lost a load of CDs in a house move (don't ask) so rebought some. 'Brothers in Arms' used to make the hairs on the back of my neck stand on end in places, but the 'remastered' version delivered yesterday is flat and horrible.
OK, so the system might be showing things up slightly, and it's not high-end by a long way, but it's just madness. Is there even any point in buying high end hi-fi anymore if you listen to modern artists. It strikes me that the whole 'garbage in, garbage out' argument would be valid.
Loudness war... I could understand if it just affected the X-Factor winner albums and dross, but genuinely decent artists with wide appeal are being strangled. IMO of course.
Most 'rock' albums seem to be mastered at around -7db average level these days, whereas historically it would have been around -16db. It's quite amusing watching the peak meter and spectrogram in Foobar when playing lossless Flac files - peak meter just stays on 0db and the spectrogram shows a wall of sound with continual clipping. Great! It's not as if I wanted to hear the band anyway...
It's a crap state of affairs and it doesn't matter how high end your system is, it still sounds crap. ReplayGain helps a little, but can't recover what's lost. As usual, the labels are to blame as they make the engineers master it like that. Idea being that their song will stand out compared to others, as it sounds 'louder' at the same volume - hence more sales. Doesn't work of course, because everybody does it. So now everything sounds rubbish and is tiring to listen to.
Want to stop it? Pirate the music and support the band by seeing them live. Labels will go bust, then sound engineers can go back to making stuff sound crystal clear like it used to.
It's a crap state of affairs and it doesn't matter how high end your system is, it still sounds crap. ReplayGain helps a little, but can't recover what's lost. As usual, the labels are to blame as they make the engineers master it like that. Idea being that their song will stand out compared to others, as it sounds 'louder' at the same volume - hence more sales. Doesn't work of course, because everybody does it. So now everything sounds rubbish and is tiring to listen to.
Want to stop it? Pirate the music and support the band by seeing them live. Labels will go bust, then sound engineers can go back to making stuff sound crystal clear like it used to.
Link to a recent thread on PH music section relating to recordings which make your HC/Hi-fi sound its best. Check out the age of most of the recordings......loads of analogue recordings in there too.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
As a recording engineer myself, I would like to clarify that this has nothing to do with the way music is recorded.
The recording engineer may sometimes also mix the project, and at that point their job ends.
However, from that point the album is 'mastered' by someone else at another facility. That process is supposed to 'finish' the record, that is make sure that each track has similar 'loudness', and to adjust the dynamics of each track.
Of course however, you can overcook it.
I just wanted to point out that this has nothing to do with the way that music is recorded, engineers, or artists.
The recording engineer may sometimes also mix the project, and at that point their job ends.
However, from that point the album is 'mastered' by someone else at another facility. That process is supposed to 'finish' the record, that is make sure that each track has similar 'loudness', and to adjust the dynamics of each track.
Of course however, you can overcook it.
I just wanted to point out that this has nothing to do with the way that music is recorded, engineers, or artists.
garycat said:
Stock, Aitken & Waterman found a way to beat the level limiters on radio broadcasts, so their songs always stood out more.
I think the problem is that since we moved away from vinyl, it is far easier to saturate the recording medium.
Indeed.I think the problem is that since we moved away from vinyl, it is far easier to saturate the recording medium.
They just stopped using low bass in their tracks!
Agree with what you have said about vinyl too. Through my collection of older CDs such as Dire Straits, Prince (Sign of the Times) for example they are mastered in a very similar way that vinyl was at the time in terms of sound.
In fact, a CD of today compared to a CD then sounds like a different format.
As an overall theory it is understood that the way music is presented over the years is firmly tied to the technology of the the transportation media. The 3 minute single and a 45-50 minute album (and later on the 74 minute CD but that's another debate) was defined by what the media could do. Indeed, even the sound of a recording for example drums and bass panned to the centre is an old technological constraint which has just stuck.
The current issue in the cutting edge of engineering is the simple fact that 95% of listeners are going to hear the track on the radio or MP3. Therefore, shouldn't it be mixed and mastered to get the best out of that format, and not the uncompressed CD version?
I am not sure I agree, and most engineers who spend tens of thousands of pounds on the best gear to make an ultimate recording are consigning themselves to the fact that no-one can tell the difference any more...
Maxf said:
Many of my old albums sound great, but probably 50% of my new albums just sound flat and dull. Have we really gone backwards?
I'm a secret fan of Bose systems for this very reason. All the audiophiles criticise them but they seem to add a bit of excitement to a poorly produced track that sounds dull on a good system. A lot of music is poorly produced and hence needs what would normally be considered silly equalisation settings, either by design (i.e. a Bose system) or via bass, treble, loudness controls.I'm not saying you can ever make this music sound good, only that you can make it sound more exciting.
I've posted on totally unlistenable.
There must be a huge market for properly mastered music, the market is there already supplying for classics and jazz. There must be a market for more mainstream stuff, i'd love to hear Oasis, Arctic Monkeys, Kaiser Chiefs, etc properly.
Best thing i've heard for years was a local band who published 'sex is on fire' un ruined. Even the Mrs who has the ears of a cloth donkey, commented on it. So real it was scary!
And i've commented on many forums about Californication unmastered. (Once again if anyone knows of a better than 128k MP3 of this let me know), shot quality but awesome sound!
There must be a huge market for properly mastered music, the market is there already supplying for classics and jazz. There must be a market for more mainstream stuff, i'd love to hear Oasis, Arctic Monkeys, Kaiser Chiefs, etc properly.
Best thing i've heard for years was a local band who published 'sex is on fire' un ruined. Even the Mrs who has the ears of a cloth donkey, commented on it. So real it was scary!
And i've commented on many forums about Californication unmastered. (Once again if anyone knows of a better than 128k MP3 of this let me know), shot quality but awesome sound!
wiffmaster said:
Most 'rock' albums seem to be mastered at around -7db average level these days, whereas historically it would have been around -16db. It's a crap state of affairs and it doesn't matter how high end your system is, it still sounds crap. As usual, the labels are to blame as they make the engineers master it like that.
Rush - The Spirit Of Radio............Cynical but appropriate"One likes to believe
In the freedom of music
But glittering prizes
And endless compromises
Shatter the illusion
Of integrity"
Edited by CRACKIE on Wednesday 27th January 22:12
Maxf said:
Some really interesting facts/points coming out here - I didnt realise this all happened after the engineers had done their thing.
So, if you were to buy vinyl instead of CDs (where available) would the dynamics be improved or are they lost on all formats?
It is not so much the format itself per se, just the way that version has been mastered. You can even tell the difference between a track on a CD album and a compilation CD. Of course what a 'remaster' is that they go back to the original stereo master and start again.So, if you were to buy vinyl instead of CDs (where available) would the dynamics be improved or are they lost on all formats?
In the earlyish days of CD remastering say the early mid 90's there were some improvements over the original 'takes' over the very first CD releases as it was a new format at the time. At that point there was a lot of technology coming in to do with digital encoding and systems such as UV22 which gave the effect of *more* dynamics rather than less.
Now however such benefits are inaudible to to the extremely high mean average level of the master.
Why do bands and producers not have more control over this?
Elbow's last album is mastered well and there's stuff in the sleeve notes about it etc.
There's a lot of music, where I like the songs in principle, but the mastering makes it uncomfortable to listen to so I don't.
Most of my music is not chart/mainstream so why are they involved in any "loudness war" when it's unlikely that they'll find themselves anywhere near a popular radio station.
As a minimum, you'd think albums would be OK and singles being subject to this nonsense....
Elbow's last album is mastered well and there's stuff in the sleeve notes about it etc.
There's a lot of music, where I like the songs in principle, but the mastering makes it uncomfortable to listen to so I don't.
Most of my music is not chart/mainstream so why are they involved in any "loudness war" when it's unlikely that they'll find themselves anywhere near a popular radio station.
As a minimum, you'd think albums would be OK and singles being subject to this nonsense....
Dracoro said:
Why do bands and producers not have more control over this?...
Funnily enough I remember being is a very famous studio in LA where I was assisting in the final overdubs and mixing of a pretty big US artist's second album. Her first was at least nominated for Grammy's and sold upwards of 5m in the US. So, this is not some unknown joker.On mixing the second album track with single potential I think all the tracks were put up to to an approximate level and was put through basic processing just to hear what the track sounded like and start planning a way forward.
She walked in and went 'wow - this sounds great, I can really hear this working on the radio - it sounds brilliant' and was ecstatic.
No one said a word, and no-one had the heart to say that mixing hadn't even started yet and it was simply going through a huge amount of compression.
The thing is, with the majority of music listeners and the instant impression is 'loud is good'. There is a scientist who recorded the fact, and although no-one knows exactly why, people think music sounds better louder.
So of course, if any of the artist, producer, A+R guy, manager, Record Company Execs get to hear two versions of the same track back to back - the 'louder' one always wins. Indeed, a 'loud' track also comes over better on the radio too.
The problem is that a 'trick' that was used by a couple of mixers for rock tracks on individual instruments to make them 'sit' in the mix and still be loud in now used on pretty much the whole of every track.
I am afraid I don't have an answer as to how it might be reversed though...
Maxf said:
Some really interesting facts/points coming out here - I didnt realise this all happened after the engineers had done their thing.
So, if you were to buy vinyl instead of CDs (where available) would the dynamics be improved or are they lost on all formats?
I read in Hifi News last month that some audiophile reissue lps have been mastered from cds, what the fSo, if you were to buy vinyl instead of CDs (where available) would the dynamics be improved or are they lost on all formats?
k is that all about? 
Gassing Station | Home Cinema & Hi-Fi | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff